New Roush TVS pushing 550 hp on 4.6L?

[eighty6gt]

Roush is completely absolved of any liability, especially when it comes to a platform that went out of production 7 years ago or more.

Back in 2011 I guess they were selling a surprising amount of the M90 kits. I think they were 3500 or so at the time. What a deal! Now it's 7 grand for a blower.

 

[BruceH]

702GT, thanks for the advice. It was the cartoon of the man beating the dead horse that got me. I understand that this question has been asked numerous times. But, when a highly respected aftermarket mustang producer such as Roush releases a new product that states this is what's "safe" it begs me to raise the topic again and lay it out on the table for discussion. I also understand that my set up is different from the kit they have released. But, it caused me to question what I and many other mustang enthusiasts have contemplated for years and that is what is "safe"? And I like many others before me may not stop until that question is answered with one final "POP" lol

Ford Racing has been selling their Whipple version with an emissions compliant tune for almost 10 years. It usually makes around 470-480rhwp and is advertised at 550hp. Just because Roush is doing something similar 10 years later doesn't make it big news, lol.

No motor is ever going to be absolutely safe. Stock motors with a stock tune can blow. The odds of a motor blowing go down when some things are taken care of. One of those things is the iat. Keep the iat low and the chance of failure is reduced. Keep the tune safe and the chances are reduced. Investing in a quality fuel system that will support more power than planned (think of a cold -da day when boost increases because of the denser air) and the chance of failure goes down.

Even the slightest amount of detonation or preignition can cause damage in several ways. A piston ring land can break, tipping the piston and putting excess force on the rod causing rod failure. The rod itself won't like a preignition event, nor will the oil pump or bearings. Any of those components failing will cause catastrophic engine failure.

Whenever you go with forced induction be prepared for catastrophic failure. Do what you can to keep the motor safe but be prepared because even a bad tank of gas can ruin your day.

 

[KatoS197]

702GT, thanks for the advice. It was the cartoon of the man beating the dead horse that got me. I understand that this question has been asked numerous times. But, when a highly respected aftermarket mustang producer such as Roush releases a new product that states this is what's "safe" it begs me to raise the topic again and lay it out on the table for discussion. I also understand that my set up is different from the kit they have released. But, it caused me to question what I and many other mustang enthusiasts have contemplated for years and that is what is "safe"? And I like many others before me may not stop until that question is answered with one final "POP" lol

I understand where you're coming from when it comes to a brand name being associated with quality, but the #1 goal for aftermarket companies is sales. Bottom line. As said before, the only measuring stick for performance is what you see value in. Plenty of guys on here that have a higher regard for 60ft's and ETs than HP and TQ. But if the Dyno #'s is what does it for you then by all means, but I'd rather learn from others than trial by fire.

 

[Jwoo8804]

Sorry, I didn't realize the whipple was putting out that much power. I guess I'll just trust that the tuners know what they are doing and pray it doesn't blow up on the dyno.

 

[GT E UPP]

If it's worth anything at this point, I was at 538 rwhp (Mustang Dyno) with a stock bottom end for about 4 years with no problem at all before upgrading to a Brenspeed B326 Stroker.
At the time with....Whipple-HO Intercooled, 94 Octane, GT 500 fuel pumps, great tune, etc. etc.

 

[Jwoo8804]

If it's worth anything at this point, I was at 538 rwhp (Mustang Dyno) with a stock bottom end for about 4 years with no problem at all before upgrading to a Brenspeed B326 Stroker.
With....Whipple-HO Intercooled, 94 Octane, GT 500 fuel pumps, great tune, etc. etc.

Really?? I would be a nervous wreck every time I stepped on the pedal on the right. But, that does make me feel a lot better to hear that it lasted for 4 years with no issues. I just get nervous thinking about the fact that I'm handing the car over to some guys who are supposed to squeeze every ounce of power out of the car they can, and at the end of the day I'm still liable if they break it

. I think I'm just going to tell them to stay conservative with the tune and see where it stands.

 

[702GT]

I understand where you're coming from when it comes to a brand name being associated with quality, but the #1 goal for aftermarket companies is sales. Bottom line. As said before, the only measuring stick for performance is what you see value in. Plenty of guys on here that have a higher regard for 60ft's and ETs than HP and TQ. But if the Dyno #'s is what does it for you then by all means, but I'd rather learn from others than trial by fire.

Truth. Aftermarket has claimed for decades (20-30whp gains w/CAI & Handheld Tune). This is the most basic and common sales pitch to any performance enthusiast, as I submit for example of the aftermarkets play as devils advocate.

The fact is, any performance gain is coming directly from the tune. Not all cars will respond with equal gains to the same generic canned tune, either. Only a custom tune made for your car in the environment common to your location will yield true gains.

As for cold air intakes, the fact of the matter is they are bad for your engine and provide meager (if any) gains. Specifically, it's the filters that are bad for your engine/blower. The cotton oil wicked elements *do not* filter air near as well as an OEM type filter. Some people argue "restriction" but half don't understand what restriction is to an engine. Some types of restriction can be good (but not in the case of a PD motor). On FI cars, these cotton elements get worked even harder. Wish I had taken pics of the K&N that came with my D1. It had 20k/mi on the system when I bought it, and the filter had thinned out in some spots, small gaps in the cotton in other spots. It was trash. There are manufacturers that make OEM or better quality paper-type filters in cone or panel designs in many dimensions that meet any CFM need. But the aftermarket has done a spectacular job marketing the cotton wicked filter as a necessary OEM "upgrade" and down playing the paper filter as "bad".

Really?? I would be a nervous wreck every time I stepped on the pedal on the right. But, that does make me feel a lot better to hear that it lasted for 4 years with no issues. I just get nervous thinking about the fact that I'm handing the car over to some guys who are supposed to squeeze every ounce of power out of the car they can, and at the end of the day I'm still liable if they break it

. I think I'm just going to tell them to stay conservative with the tune and see where it stands.

True safety comes entirely with the tune. Fuel/fuel enhancement choice is your added insurance. The best chance you can give any motor (stock or forged) is dealing with a reputable tuner. I had a nice flamed up thread a while back from a tech post dealing with a couple people having tune trouble, both of them using bama's "free tunes for life" email tunes. I have no problem who anyone chooses to let tune their $30k-$50k mustangs. Just don't you fvcking dare cry about it when you become a statistic. Bama's obligations rest on the shoulders of a FEW individuals to handle THOUSANDS of customers who only had to pay them ONCE for every tune and tune revision for the rest of that handhelds natural life. So, will you be a monday, wednesday, or friday tune? IMHO, free email tunes are like ordering cheeseburgers, except cheeseburgers don't blow up in your face and cost $10k to replace when the cook forgets the pickles. Some people have issues with their tunes, some don't.

I openly recommend Lito as a tuner. His reputation, tuning skill, and customer service are well documented on this forum alone. I don't even have his tunes and I still recommend him. (This may change in the future, as my tuner is thinking of moving out of state lol). There are plenty of other reputable tuners as well.

Good fuel is a must. Meth kits are better insurance in the case of FI. E85, IMO, is the best. There are only 6 stations in Vegas that sell E85, and I go out of my way to use it. Well worth it. I do run a test kit at the station before filling, also worth it IMO, but I am a bit OCD lol. It's not just the gains from e85/meth, its the detonation tolerance (which is typically what kills stock/forged motors). If you can significantly or entirely reduce your odds of detonation, you'll extend the life and power potential of your motor significantly. I won't shed a tear for mechanical failure, but I'd cry bloody murder over detonation, lol.

 

[Jwoo8804]

Good fuel is a must. Meth kits are better insurance in the case of FI. E85, IMO, is the best. There are only 6 stations in Vegas that sell E85, and I go out of my way to use it. Well worth it. I do run a test kit at the station before filling, also worth it IMO, but I am a bit OCD lol. It's not just the gains from e85/meth, its the detonation tolerance (which is typically what kills stock/forged motors). If you can significantly or entirely reduce your odds of detonation, you'll extend the life and power potential of your motor significantly. I won't shed a tear for mechanical failure, but I'd cry bloody murder over detonation, lol.[/QUOTE]

Do you think it is worth it to run race gas like 100+ octane just for safety during the dyno tune and run 93 octane the rest of the time?

 

[Wes06]

You want it tuned for the octane you run, or lower
Running a lower octane than tuned for =bad day
Running higher means you may lose a little performance/lighter wallet than nessecary. But it would be safer

 

[stkjock]

Do you think it is worth it to run race gas like 100+ octane just for safety during the dyno tune and run 93 octane the rest of the time?

sure, if you like a new window in you engine block.

always tune for what that tune will be used for. Race gas for track use tune and 93 for street tune as an example.

I really think you should spend some more time reading and searching.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Aftermarket claims = LOL

 

[Pentalab]

So, Roush has released a S/C kit that puts out 550hp to the flywheel on the 4.6L 3V engine. There has always been the argument that going over 500 flywheel hp is not safe with stock internals on the 4.6L. But, it looks like Roush is saying with this new kit that it might be ok to push well over 500 flywheel hp all the way up to 550. Everyone has a different opinion on what the stock bottom end on the 4.6L will handle. So, what are your thoughts on this new S/C kit from Roush?

What do you mean by ...'new' 550 crank hp kit ? It's been around for a loooong time already... ( Roush 550 crank hp kit, with TVS-2300).
What year is your car? How many miles on the odometer? What..'exhaust system' did you install, which cams did u install?
Did you put a new cai on it?

With the 2.49" pulley, cai, LT's (+ catted or un-catted H or X)...and a cam,FRPP twin 62mm TB, it will easily put out 450-460 rwhp..with a 93 tune. ( aprx 511-523 crank hp). I'd leave it alone. Those rods are pretzel sticks. They will eventually succumb to metal fatigue. On a 2010 M90 setup, VMP was getting 460 rwhp..with all of the above...but oem stock cams.
Sure you can crank it up to 500 rwhp..with a VMP TVS-1900 simple swap + bap..... but even VMP sez that's....'only for really low mileage engines'.

Unless you are planning on rebuilding the eng with forged everything, leave it alone. If you plan on rebuilding the eng, sure, put a bigger blower on it, the sky's the limit then.

 

[Jwoo8804]

What do you mean by ...'new' 550 crank hp kit ? It's been around for a loooong time already... ( Roush 550 crank hp kit, with TVS-2300).
What year is your car? How many miles on the odometer? What..'exhaust system' did you install, which cams did u install?
Did you put a new cai on it?

With the 2.49" pulley, cai, LT's (+ catted or un-catted H or X)...and a cam,FRPP twin 62mm TB, it will easily put out 450-460 rwhp..with a 93 tune. ( aprx 511-523 crank hp). I'd leave it alone. Those rods are pretzel sticks. They will eventually succumb to metal fatigue. On a 2010 M90 setup, VMP was getting 460 rwhp..with all of the above...but oem stock cams.
Sure you can crank it up to 500 rwhp..with a VMP TVS-1900 simple swap + bap..... but even VMP sez that's....'only for really low mileage engines'.

Unless you are planning on rebuilding the eng with forged everything, leave it alone. If you plan on rebuilding the eng, sure, put a bigger blower on it, the sky's the limit then.

Yes(unless I am mistaken) Roush did not offer a S/C kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009 that put out 550hp until recently. Or I had just overlooked it every time I looked through a parts catalog online. Previously they have offered a 475hp kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009. If you look on the post above I edited my signature with all of the modifications I have made.

You missed my point. I am not asking can the hp be achieved or how to achieve it. Nor am I asking is it a good idea to swap the S/C I currently have for this new kit I am referring to. I know that there are other kits out there that have been offering this hp rating with their S/C kits for a while. My point was to say that Roush now offers a kit that says the same thing and I wanted to see what everyone else on this forums opinion was about that.

 

[Pentalab]

That Roush '550 crank hp' kit has been available since at least the early spring of 2011. It was available in both single and dual belt too. (for 05-10 cars). I believe it was available well before 2011.

 

[drive_55_not]

Yes(unless I am mistaken) Roush did not offer a S/C kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009 that put out 550hp until recently. Or I had just overlooked it every time I looked through a parts catalog online. Previously they have offered a 475hp kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009. If you look on the post above I edited my signature with all of the modifications I have made.

You missed my point. I am not asking can the hp be achieved or how to achieve it. Nor am I asking is it a good idea to swap the S/C I currently have for this new kit I am referring to. I know that there are other kits out there that have been offering this hp rating with their S/C kits for a while.

My point was to say that Roush now offers a kit that says the same thing and I wanted to see what everyone else on this forums opinion was about that.

I wouldn't get too hung up on anybody claiming 550hp from their power adder is safe for your stock internals.

The tune [ or detonation from ] isn't what's going to kill you, it's a simple rod failure at some point you need to worry about.

I installed the TVS tuner kit and the kit came with a 3.5" pulley, it made 465rwhp/435rwtq , over the next year I installed cams [Comp 127300] and a 3" pulley and power went to 530rwhp/490rwtq,, all on BP-93 pump gas.

I ran that for nearly a year, regularly shifted at 7000rpm and finally decided it was time to go forged.

When we pulled the motor apart there were no signs of detonation but the rods were showing signs of some serious stress,, the caps/rods/bolts were stretched, the rod bearings were beat up pretty bad and a couple rods were bent.

It obviously wasn't going to be long till a rod let go. As the other guys posted, when that failure happens is going to be different for everybody, some have had failure literally hours after installing a blower, others are still running strong years after their install..



.

 

[skwerl]

Yes(unless I am mistaken) Roush did not offer a S/C kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009 that put out 550hp until recently. Or I had just overlooked it every time I looked through a parts catalog online. Previously they have offered a 475hp kit for the 4.6L 2005-2009. If you look on the post above I edited my signature with all of the modifications I have made.

You missed my point. I am not asking can the hp be achieved or how to achieve it. Nor am I asking is it a good idea to swap the S/C I currently have for this new kit I am referring to. I know that there are other kits out there that have been offering this hp rating with their S/C kits for a while. My point was to say that Roush now offers a kit that says the same thing and I wanted to see what everyone else on this forums opinion was about that.

To more specifically answer your question, the parts being offered haven't changed. They just changed their output claims. It's the same old kit with a 'new and improved' sales label.

 

[702GT]

I wouldn't get too hung up on anybody claiming 550hp from their power adder is safe for your stock internals.

The tune [ or detonation from ] isn't what's going to kill you, it's a simple rod failure at some point you need to worry about.

I installed the TVS tuner kit and the kit came with a 3.5" pulley, it made 465rwhp/435rwtq , over the next year I installed cams [Comp 127300] and a 3" pulley and power went to 530rwhp/490rwtq,, all on BP-93 pump gas.

I ran that for nearly a year, regularly shifted at 7000rpm and finally decided it was time to go forged.

When we pulled the motor apart there were no signs of detonation but the rods were showing signs of some serious stress,, the caps/rods/bolts were stretched, the rod bearings were beat up pretty bad and a couple rods were bent.

It obviously wasn't going to be long till a rod let go. As the other guys posted, when that failure happens is going to be different for everybody, some have had failure literally hours after installing a blower, others are still running strong years after their install..



.

I disagree as far as the tune goes. Detonation kills more motors than mechanical failures. More so in FI cars. The majority of aftermarket claims are made in BHP not WHP. So a 550hp roush kit is only around 480-490whp in optimal conditions. As for weak rods, it's a given that you're on borrowed time when you take the stock internals beyond their specified intended use. I've been making my power for over a year now with no signs of internal mechanical issues. But a centri and a 6k/rpm rev limit is as gentle on the internals as it gets for FI... I'm not sure if my rear tires will agree with that statement though lol.

 

[Jwoo8804]

OK, so let me ask this question. Do you guys think I am worrying too much about it blowing up on the dyno during tuning? The car has 30,000 miles on it and I bought it 3.5 years ago with 24,000 miles. It was basically stock except for the pulley upgrade when I bought it. So, even if the previous owner ran it extremely hard for those 24,000 miles it was still operating under fairly "safe" conditions for the stock internals. I drive the car very easy. I rarely take it over 4000 RPMs and once I get the car back from the tuning shop I will still drive very conservatively. Or is the answer that there is no answer because every motor is different and without tearing apart the block to inspect the condition of the rods then there is not way of knowing if there will be a failure or not? Lol

 

[skwerl]

First of all, you have to have some level of trust with your tuner. Next, every second your car is running on the dyno it will be monitored by your tuner who will have multiple parameters datalogged live on his computer. He will be able to see exactly what is going on every instant. If something doesn't look right, he will know it before you can see, hear or suspect a thing. If something is going to go wrong, best for it to happen on the dyno where they will shut it down immediately. If you're out on the street and something goes wrong, you might destroy the whole engine before you realize you have a problem.

That being said, my tuner never pushed my car any harder than I did on the street. He would get it up to cruising speed in 4th gear (about 2K rpm) and then floor it up to redline. That's it. You might be there 90-120 minutes with 5-10 pulls.

Here's an example so you can get a better idea of what you can expect to happen during a dyno tune.

 

[BruceH]

I wouldn't get too hung up on anybody claiming 550hp from their power adder is safe for your stock internals.

The tune [ or detonation from ] isn't what's going to kill you, it's a simple rod failure at some point you need to worry about.

I installed the TVS tuner kit and the kit came with a 3.5" pulley, it made 465rwhp/435rwtq , over the next year I installed cams [Comp 127300] and a 3" pulley and power went to 530rwhp/490rwtq,, all on BP-93 pump gas.

I ran that for nearly a year, regularly shifted at 7000rpm and finally decided it was time to go forged.

When we pulled the motor apart there were no signs of detonation but the rods were showing signs of some serious stress,, the caps/rods/bolts were stretched, the rod bearings were beat up pretty bad and a couple rods were bent.

It obviously wasn't going to be long till a rod let go. As the other guys posted, when that failure happens is going to be different for everybody, some have had failure literally hours after installing a blower, others are still running strong years after their install..



.

FYI beat up bearings and funky looking rods are a sign of preignition.