Not your typical cam position sensor issue

[Flapjack]

If it was electrical you should usually get a code. The typical fuse that handles most of the sensors assuming that the PCM has proper power is F47.

I'll check that tonight... but based on what you're saying, I'd get more than those two specific codes.

Had a similar problem much like yours, may or may not be related but is a component of that timing system. I believe the crank bolt backed off a bit from the tensioner bottoming out when you get off it at high rpm, caused the key way to open up.

Just something I'd check if you don't find anything else.

That's pretty crazy. Wow. Yeah, that would probably do it, though. If I've exhausted all other options, I can at least check that, and make sure I didn't put the damn thing on backwards either (not that I'm even sure you can).

I'm going to try and find a new crank position sensor tonight and try that first. I've read that can trip the two cam codes as well.

 

[Flapjack]

Well, I made some progress today. No fix (yet), but I was able to rule out three things:

1) The crank position sensor was good. Unfortunately, I can't return it, now that I've used it. Not that it's even worth dropping the A/C compressor again...

2) Using a borescope, I was able to look inside towards the crank gears. The trigger wheel is in there, exactly how it should be, with the fingers pointing forward.

3) Wild White Pony on the S197 forums had shown an instance where the notch for the crank pulley pin had somehow got widened. Not sure if it was throwing the same codes, but I was able to put a screwdriver in there, grab the teeth, and not move it in any direction... which is great.

I'm seriously running out of options here. I don't know what to do now. Here's what I've been able to rule out:

- Engine timing: while off at first, it is ON now. The car sounds great while idling (until I rev it to 1500-2000rpm, when the wrench light kicks in). Also, compression is right where it should be.

- Camshaft position sensors: Replaced both.

- Alternator: Replaced

- Wiring harness: Visual inspection only. No damage observed

- CMP sensor plugs: pins are straight and clip in well

- Reflashed current tune: No difference

- Checked toner rings to see if they move independently: they are solid

- Crankshaft position sensor: Replaced

- Crankshaft reluctor/trigger wheel: visually inspected to confirm it points forward

- Crankshaft reluctor/trigger wheel: tried to move independent of crankshaft. Not a budge.

At this point, I think I need the step-by-step troubleshooting procedures from the FSM. I will try to find them, but if anyone knows where I should be looking, I'd appreciate it.

 

[Flapjack]

Here is something interesting I just read. This is from an F-150 forum, which ironically, my 3v 5.4L came from:

If the Bank #1 cam was out of time it would NOT set a P0340 or a P0345 code. You would get a P1381. The P0340 and P0345 is what the PCM sets when it doesn't get ANY signal from the CMP (Cam Position) sensors!

Originally Posted by Jake dog:
When this truck is running it doesn't make a difference on how it runs when the cmp on bank 1 is plugged in or not .

That's because the PCM only uses the CMP sensor at engine start up. The CKP sensor is used to figure out where in its rotation a particulr piston is, for example, #1 is at TDC. But that isn't enough for the PCM to figure out if it should fire the injector for #1 or the coil for #1 because even though #1 is at TDC, it needs to know if the piston is on its compression stroke OR its exhaust stroke. That's what it uses the CMP sensor for.

If it doesn't have a CMP sensor to work with at start up, some versions will try and fire a few injectors at random while the engine is cranking to see if it can get lucky. If the engine starts, the PCM can figure out where #1 is and what stroke it is on and just keeps track of it from there on out. No need for the CMP sensor.

Just to recap: The P0340/P0345 says the PCM didn't get a CMP sensor signal. If Bank #1's cam is out of time it will set a P1381.

BTW, the PCM compares the CMP sensor signal and the CKP (Crank Position) sensor to determine if the cam is out of time. But if you get a P0340 code (no CMP sensor signal) there is no way you can get a P1381 (bank #1 cam out of time) because it needs BOTH a CKP a CMP signal to deterine if it is out of time!

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/9...n-sensor-replacement-help-3.html#post11449269

 

[Bullitt6301]

With the wrench light coming on that sounds like a tune issue. Not saying Lito is wrong but maybe something isn't accounted for? MAF issue?

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

 

[Flapjack]

With the wrench light coming on that sounds like a tune issue. Not saying Lito is wrong but maybe something isn't accounted for? MAF issue?

Nothing has changed with the engine since the last time the car was run. Lito was still working on some very minor stalling issues when rolling to a stop, but that's it. I never get CELs with Lito's tune. The engine is setup exactly the same way it was when I pulled it out of the car... just new rings, crank, and a rod.

I don't think the MAF can cause the P0340/P0345 errors.... and again, it worked 100% fine the day I pulled the engine.

 

[Flapjack]

After my post last night, I did a little more troubleshooting. I first unplugged the oil pan sensor, as some have said that helped with the P0345 error (on an F150). Not sure why it would. I also tried running the car with no CMP or MAF sensors plugged in. Same errors. I also pulled apart the fuse box to check for bent pins, and removed the fender well cover to get at the PCM behind the fender. All plugs were good there, and nicely seated. After I was done with all that, I did another compression check (150psi on each side).

The car sounds great when it's idling. The wrench light, and subsequent P0340/P0345 after restarting the car, don't come up unless I bring the engine RPM up past 3000 for more than a second or two. If I let it idle, I can datalog and everything looks perfect. AFR on both banks is a steady 14.6-14.7, short-term fuel trims are within 1-2% on each side, though most of the time they are at 0-1% (that wouldn't be the case if the timing was off). Spark and load is exactly where it should be, and ECT settles in at 192F after warming up.

I honestly don't know what else to check.

 

[Wild White Pony]

I've been helping a friend with a TT that is getting the P0340 also so it's been interesting to say the least on the problem.

Couldn't find anything wrong for throwing this code. I gave him a spare VCT I had to use in that bank and he's cleaned all the connectors with contact cleaner, I've had oil get into connectors cause intermittent signals. So far the codes not up but would need to drive around 200 miles to be sure. With your HP I'm guessing your locked out and may not apply?

And we never threw a wrench light?

 

[Flapjack]

I've been helping a friend with a TT that is getting the P0340 also so it's been interesting to say the least on the problem.

Couldn't find anything wrong for throwing this code. I gave him a spare VCT I had to use in that bank and he's cleaned all the connectors with contact cleaner, I've had oil get into connectors cause intermittent signals. So far the codes not up but would need to drive around 200 miles to be sure. With your HP I'm guessing your locked out and may not apply?

And we never threw a wrench light?

Posting that picture was like poking me in the eye, lol (same scanner).

Yeah, I'm completely locked out. The VCT solenoids are removed and there's a set of V10 block plates installed. Though I have seen bad VCTs (or not enough oil pressure to keep VCT-controlled cams centered) trip that code.

 

[Wild White Pony]

Posting that picture was like poking me in the eye, lol (same scanner).

Yeah, I'm completely locked out. The VCT solenoids are removed and there's a set of V10 block plates installed. Though I have seen bad VCTs (or not enough oil pressure to keep VCT-controlled cams centered) trip that code.

Yep, nobody likes that code LOL..

You mentioned on a prior post that on startup it jumped a tooth or so. The first thing I thought was Oil pressure causing a tensioner fault or just a weak tensioner. So if you have seen not enough oil pressure causes that code with active VCT's, a slappy happy chain may put you of sync. Just a thought?

 

[Flapjack]

Yep, nobody likes that code LOL..

You mentioned on a prior post that on startup it jumped a tooth or so. The first thing I thought was Oil pressure causing a tensioner fault or just a weak tensioner. So if you have seen not enough oil pressure causes that code with active VCT's, a slappy happy chain may put you of sync. Just a thought?

If that were the case, the timing would have to go out each time. Not sure if I posted it here, or in another forum, but the chain skipping is only during the initial startup. I used to prime the oil system with a garden sprayer, but MMR recommended I didn't this time because it can flush out all the pre-assembly lube. I've actually had it happen both ways. There is like 2-3 seconds during that first startup where there is no oil pressure until the oil pump gets primed. The timing has been fine since I fixed it. At the end of each day of troubleshooting, I always do a compression test to check the timing. It hasn't budged since.

I do plan on getting a manual oil pressure gauge, just because I'd like to know what I'm getting. I have no reason to believe there's any problem with the oil, though.

 

[lito]

What about logging?

 

[Flapjack]

What about logging?

I can do some logging, if that would help. So far, I've just been doing some basic logging on the handheld. STFTs were within 1-2%, AFRs on both widebands looked great, and load was around the same as its always been (27% or so). The car seems like it would idle all day if I let it. It's when I rev it up slightly that the car goes into limp mode. After the next startup, the P0340/P0345 codes set.

 

[lito]

Just to check what goes on, probably take it to the point where it goes into FMEM and report timestamp to see if anything shows.

 

[Flapjack]

Just to check what goes on, probably take it to the point where it goes into FMEM and report timestamp to see if anything shows.

Ok, I will try and grab a datalog right now. Gotta reinstall the SCT software, though.

 

[Flapjack]

Lito had me get a datalog of the wrench light event last night. He said there were zero MAF ad counts in the log. At one point (just once), I did get a P0102... but I figured it was just a fluke. 99.9% of the time, it is P0340/P0345.

I checked everything I could think of twice last night. Back in 2012, I had a P0102, but it was clearly because of a bent pin. I straightened the pin out, and haven't had an issue since.

Last night, I checked the 6 pins on the MAF sensor itself, all were straight. I also checked the harness plug, and all the sockets were fine, and did not push backwards out of the plug. I stripped the sheath away to check all the wires. I'm good at soldering, so I didn't think the joints would be bad. They looked great. I can't actually look at the solder joint itself, as they're all shrink-wrapped, but I did do a continuity test on all the wires by poking the probe into the wire. All were less than 1 ohm. I also checked for voltage and ground on the harness (with the key on). I got 12v for pin one, less than 1 ohm for the ground wire, and 5v for pin 6 (I think I have those in the right order. I also checked all the fuses, to include 40 and 47. Both were fine. A few days ago, I pulled apart the fuse box and checked all the connections there. All were fine. I also cleaned the MAF good with MAF sensor cleaner. Finally, I checked all the intake tubing to make sure it was tight and secure. I also inspected the pins/harness for the two TB sensors.

So where I'm left with is, what else can cause a loss of voltage at the MAF? I've checked pretty much everything here:
http://engine-codes.com/p0102.html

 

[Flapjack]

I finally found the problem. One of the wires (the 12v, I believe) was broken inside. Ironically, it wasn't at either of the two solder points on the extension, but was closer to the connector. At least 1-2 strands were still connected, as it passed all the continuity tests I did... even all the way back to the PCM.

So now the car runs without a wrench light or CMP codes. I just need to figure out why the AFRs are sitting at 10-11 on both sides. It's pig rich right now, even when warmed all the way up.

 

[Flapjack]

Well, I'm back to the P0340 and P0345. The car was idling on its own when I ran it last. It was just very, very rich. The vacuum was low, like -5 to -7 (normally -10 with my cams), but the engine wasn't idling well, either. If I brought the RPMs up even slightly, vacuum looked normal. Still, I figured it must be a vacuum problem, especially since it was showing up on both widebands. I decided to leave it alone for a few hours, take a nap, then see if I could find something else wrong.

When I started working on it again, I started with the vacuum lines. I checked every single one by hand to see if they were disconnected, broken, pinched, cut, etc. They all seemed fine. So I went to start the car up again so that I could spray some carb cleaner around the intake, intake tubing, etc... but it wouldn't stay running. It was doing the same thing before I fixed the MAF wire, but this time, the ad counts were clearly showing up on the data logger. I also did a compression test to make sure the cams were still good, and they were.

I'm at a loss. I feel like I've gone over everything, but I'm sure I'm missing something.

 

[Wild White Pony]

I know this may be a long shot but since you have this problem at first startup, if you have deleted your charge motion plates or have an aftermarket intake, check to see if you plugged the proper connector into the knock sensor, I say this cause they have the same connector and can be mixed up, don't ask how I know.

 

[Flapjack]

Yes. I have actually had that problem before, lol. Also, the head temp sensor harness is the same plug as well. So dumb. Anyways, I taped it off before I put the car back together, since I got tired of looking it up each time to see which was which. After all the problems I've had, it was one of the first things I checked.

Just to confirm, though... the CMCV plug is the one that is dead center in the back of the engine valley, right?

 

[Wild White Pony]

Yep it's dead center, in the valley and harness.