Octane Booster!

ddd4114

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More octane with all else being the same = less power.

/thread
I've actually seen the exact opposite - same engine, same dyno, same environmental conditions, same lambda. Both fuels were gasolines.


For what it's worth, this is stated in your owner's manual:

"Do not add aftermarket fuel additive products to your fuel tank. It
should not be necessary to add any aftermarket products to your fuel
tank if you continue to use high quality fuel of the recommended octane
rating. These products have not been approved for your engine and
could cause damage to the fuel system. Repairs to correct the effects of
using an aftermarket product in your fuel may not be covered by your
warranty."

Of course, if you get to the point where you need to consider octane boosters, your warranty might already be void...
 

Full_Tilt

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That's just a retarded statement. Octane by itself has nothing to do with power. It also doesn't have anything to do with how clean or completely the fuel burns or how fast or slow it burns. "all else being the same", octane is nothing more than a rating of how a fuel resists detonation or pre-ignition before it is physically lit, and nothing else. Again using the "all else being the same" scenario, an 87 octane fuel will burn at the same speed and have the same released energy as a 93 octane fuel, however once you start applying pressure to the fuel/air mix the 87 octane will self ignite before the 93 octane will.

That doesn't mean the gas companies aren't using different formulas for their "regular" and "premium" gas that may affect things like flame speed or power, but if there are differences in those areas it is from the different formula of additives they put in and not due to the octane.

It just amazes me how many people think they know what octane is and spew their waste online to infect others with incorrect info.

The detonation resistance is only part of the story, lower octane fuel has more energy per molar mass than higher octane fuel. Without tuning to take advantage of the higher detonation threshold you will make less power with higher octane fuel.
This is of course on average, and not as a direct result of the "octane" rating, but it is still a relationship that holds true. You seem intelligent enough to have understand what I meant.
 
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FalconGTHO

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We have a prepaid pump at out local air port that sells high octane idk what it is though I'm gonna check it out when my lund tune gets here

Its not AvGas, right? Because that shits made to work at altitude. It has a particular characteristic that I forget the name of at the moment, but it results in it being UNusable in auto applications.
 

ddd4114

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The detonation resistance is only part of the story, lower octane fuel has more energy per molar mass than higher octane fuel. Without tuning to take advantage of the higher detonation threshold you will make less power with higher octane fuel.
This is of course on average, and not as a direct result of the "octane" rating, but it is still a relationship that holds true. You seem intelligent enough to have understand what I meant.
Do you have any proof of this? I've read this a few times on forums, and I've never seen anybody support it.
 

Rob72

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That's just a retarded statement. Octane by itself has nothing to do with power. It also doesn't have anything to do with how clean or completely the fuel burns or how fast or slow it burns. "all else being the same", octane is nothing more than a rating of how a fuel resists detonation or pre-ignition before it is physically lit, and nothing else. Again using the "all else being the same" scenario, an 87 octane fuel will burn at the same speed and have the same released energy as a 93 octane fuel, however once you start applying pressure to the fuel/air mix the 87 octane will self ignite before the 93 octane will.

That doesn't mean the gas companies aren't using different formulas for their "regular" and "premium" gas that may affect things like flame speed or power, but if there are differences in those areas it is from the different formula of additives they put in and not due to the octane.

It just amazes me how many people think they know what octane is and spew their waste online to infect others with incorrect info.

I don't have a complete understanding of how this works but 93 octane has to resist ignition due to spark more than 87 or there would be no point to bumping up the timing and putting a higher octane fuel in the car.
 
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Rob72

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The detonation resistance is only part of the story, lower octane fuel has more energy per molar mass than higher octane fuel. Without tuning to take advantage of the higher detonation threshold you will make less power with higher octane fuel.
This is of course on average, and not as a direct result of the "octane" rating, but it is still a relationship that holds true. You seem intelligent enough to have understand what I meant.

I have always believed that it isn't a matter of less octane having more energy. It is a matter of you want the fuel to burn in a way that it doesn't begin to push down on the piston too much after igniting before it hits TDC or you begin to loose power and/or detonation. With my theory I have also suspected that running too much octane although it may be considered a safe precaution will burn too slow and can cause you to loose power also. You have to find the happy median to make your engine work the most efficient.
 

bhowardb

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Bone stock 2011 5.0- I ran quicker times on 87 octane vs. 93 octane. car also feels better on 87. weird.
 

ddd4114

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we run 9.2ish@153 on the motor with c23 and run 9.12@154 on c12

its true...
What were your 60' times on those two runs? How did ambient temperature compare? Relative humidity? Barometric pressure? Was the engine heat soaked for your C23 time? Did you log ignition advance, and if so, was the engine running MBT timing on both runs? How much fuel was in the tank at the start of each run?

Track times are a good start, but there are still a lot of uncontrolled variables. There's no correction factor for trap speeds like there is for dyno numbers. It's certainly possible that you were making more power with C12, but without knowing (a lot) more information, it's hard to attribute that 1mph gain to the fuel alone.
 

SRTthis

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What were your 60' times on those two runs? How did ambient temperature compare? Relative humidity? Barometric pressure? Was the engine heat soaked for your C23 time? Did you log ignition advance, and if so, was the engine running MBT timing on both runs? How much fuel was in the tank at the start of each run?

Track times are a good start, but there are still a lot of uncontrolled variables. There's no correction factor for trap speeds like there is for dyno numbers. It's certainly possible that you were making more power with C12, but without knowing (a lot) more information, it's hard to attribute that 1mph gain to the fuel alone.

dont remember all the data... we havent made a motor pass in a long time...
but the timing was locked at 32* as always
its never heat soaked
tank is always full
60's are around 1.5-1.45 range on motor (its a nitrous converter what can i say)
it was bracket raced on motor last time it was out and it was 9.12-9.14 no mater what changed during the day.

if you dont believe what we are telling you you can call and ask VP. you can run to much octane
 

RickG9

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The detonation resistance is only part of the story, lower octane fuel has more energy per molar mass than higher octane fuel.
molar mass? do you mean molecular weight? If you're refering to molecular weight then I believe that is incorrect also. It comes down to what gas actually is at a molecular level and how its refined out of crude oil.

The amount of energy contained in the gas is based on the carbon content. Gasoline is made by extracting carbon chains of a certain length (hydro-carbon molecules with a certain number of carbon atoms) from the oil in a process similar to distilling alcohol. Put in very simple terms, longer carbon chains are heavier, shorter carbon chains are lighter, only carbon chains containing a specific number of carbon atoms can be called gasoline. If the chains are longer, the product is heavier than gas, like diesel, kerosene, motor oil, etc. If the chains are shorter the product is lighter than gasoline, like propane. Each product has its own specific molecular weight which corresponds directly to the number of carbon atoms linked together in the molecules. This is all completely unrelated to octane, unless you want to start a discussion on cracking (a method used to get more gasoline from the crude than is naturally released in the normal refining process). As I said, octane is nothing more than a rating of a specific quality of the fuel, nothing else.

This is of course on average, and not as a direct result of the "octane" rating, but it is still a relationship that holds true. You seem intelligent enough to have understand what I meant.

Yes, I understand what you mean, I'm just saying that statement is incorrect. Based on my lengthly explanation above, if you have two tanks of fuel and one tank has a higher molecular weight fuel in it than the other tank, then regardless of what the octane rating is for either tank of fuel, they aren't the same fuel, i.e. they can't both be gasoline.

Now assuming both tanks are in fact gasoline but of different octane, that means both tanks of fuel are of the same molecular weight. I don't believe 2 molecules containing the same number of carbon atoms will release different amounts of energy when both are burned under the same conditions. This is what I base my belief on that the statement "lower octane gas = more power" is not true. Having said that, I know there are different factors in actually burning the gas to release the energy in it, and certain conditions favor releasing more of the contained energy (i.e. more efficient), after all a typical car engine is actually only utilizing less than 1/2 of the energy in the gas, so there is a lot of room for varying the hp output of the engine by altering the burn conditions and yes, octane will play a role in how effective certain changes will be, but this whole discussion was started on the basis of "all else being equal".

Now, if you want to start a discussion on how 2 molecules containing the same number of carbon atoms can release different amounts of energy under identical conditions, I'm open to that. If you have a reference of some test or statement from someone within an oil company that proves me wrong or supports your claim I'd love to hear it. Everything I stated about what gas is can be verified in any book at the library about refining oil or producing gasoline. It's 100 year old tech that isn't very hard to understand. I've done a lot of reading on the subject myself, prompted by being proven wrong in a discussion similar to this one decades ago, but I'm not a chemical engineer and I'll be the 1st to admit that I don't have full understanding of the processes involved when it comes to releasing energy at a molecular level. Do you? :beerdrink:
 

RickG9

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I don't have a complete understanding of how this works but 93 octane has to resist ignition due to spark more than 87 or there would be no point to bumping up the timing and putting a higher octane fuel in the car.

Actually, resisting ignition from a flame or spark and resisting ignition from pressure and heat with no spark are 2 different things. Octane is a rating of the latter, which means a higher octane fuel can take more pressure (and the resulting increase in temp) before it ignites. That's why you can tune an engine to increase the cylinder pressure with higher octane. Even just advancing the timing with no increase in compression ratio increases cylinder pressure, which can result in uneven and uncontrolled burning even after ignition if the gas is combusting from the pressure before the flame front consumes all the fuel in the chamber. This is what pinging is.
 

RickG9

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I have always believed that it isn't a matter of less octane having more energy. It is a matter of you want the fuel to burn in a way that it doesn't begin to push down on the piston too much after igniting before it hits TDC or you begin to loose power and/or detonation. With my theory I have also suspected that running too much octane although it may be considered a safe precaution will burn too slow and can cause you to loose power also. You have to find the happy median to make your engine work the most efficient.

You're half right. The most efficient way to burn gas in an engine is at the highest pressure possible before detonation. Start the burn too soon and you get negative torque, meaning the pressure build up in the chamber is trying to the stop the piston from coming up in the compression stroke. Where you are wrong is assuming higher octane fuel burns slower. This is a long standing misconception. 93 octane gas and 87 octane gas, all else being the same, will burn at the same speed. This would be nearly impossible to test using pump gas since different grades have different additives, so getting the "all else being the same" part would be impossible. Even so, I believe the difference in flame speed between the different octane ratings is very minimal and has no noticable difference in burn speed in the engine.

One reason you can build an engine to make more power with higher octane is you can build it with a higher static compression ratio so it builds more pressure on the compression stroke. Higher pressure makes the gas burn faster and hotter, releasing more of the energy it holds and needing less time to burn completely, therefore it needs less ignition advance for a complete burn. Less advance means less time the pressure is pushing against the piston before TDC, which = more power. In an ideal world, we'd have a fuel that could be ignited at TDC so it imposes 0 negative torque in the compression stroke and burn fast enough to completely use the energy it releases during the power stroke. In the real world, any fuel that burns that fast is too unstable and impractical for use in a car engine, so we have to advance the ignition before TDC so the gas has time to burn completely and build peak pressure before the piston moves too far down the cylinder after passing TDC.
 

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