Modern 200 TW Tires Have Lower Costs Per Run
Mark Aubele- we appreciate your passion for ESP, that's great (even if you don't run it seriously - by your own admission you are more of a hillclimb guy). But at the National level the "I just run on scrubs" game doesn't work in any SP class. Even in many regions you will get your ass handed to you "on scrubs" if a competitive SP car shows up on fresh tires. When it comes to Hoosiers in Solo, most of the top 5 guys at Nationals are running sticker sets.
Each day.
On first runs each day at Nationals you will see a lot of stickers on the tires, like above
And the rumors are true - we've seen guys in Stock class in the past
use a sticker set for each run. Stock category is so much better off now that they have ditched the Hoosier crutch and gone to street tires - more people can afford to run in Street and the rush of competitors to that category is huge. Have the 200 treadwear tires gotten softer and faster? Of course. Are they anywhere near the R-compounds of 2 years ago? Not at all.
We have built a dozen cars since 2004 for STU, STX and STS that people at Vorshlag have raced personally
I've run ST classes at 150+ autocross events over the past ten years, and SP classes at 100+ autocrosses in the last 25 years. I just co-drove on the RE71R in STX at a Regional and we are putting Rival-S tires on multiple customer cars for track and autocross. The Rival-S and RE71R are the two top contenders in Street Touring at the moment, but they are also very popular on endurance cars and track cars, due to their high grip and high wear vs R-compounds.
I have tracked the wear of these top ST tires and dozens of R-compound models, felt the grip driving in anger, and the latest crop of ST tires are not in the same league as even the old school V710 (which is many years past its prime). R-compounds are faster, and VERY fun to drive, but they are in a different class of wear.
A stack of five 315 Rival-S tires almost equals the height of four ESP legal Hoosier A7s (335/345)
The tire costs ARE radically higher on Hoosiers vs even the newest Rival-S and RE71R. And I've burned through many dozens of sets of new Hoosiers and new 140+ treadwear street tires in competition over the years to know the difference.
Mark Council's "costs per run" calculations here are pretty damn spot on. Expect to pay triple tire costs on competitive R-comps (that means A7s) vs Rival-S for STP (315mm Rival-S vs 275mm RE71R = BFG wins). The Hoosier drops off significantly after about 30-40 runs, then there is "rubber left" but its best left to Regional events.
ESP Ain't STP + Race Tires
As for "STP is just ESP without the fun" (ie: on street tires), I think you should re-read the ST and SP rules, as there are
massive differences in class rules/prep limits (which can add up to
$30K+ in cost differences between a top prepped STP and ESP cars for the same S197 model). Other than the hood and rear wing, our 2011 GT (above) wasn't that far off what a winning ESP car should look like, as far as prep. Big dollar shocks, bone crushing spring rates, low and legal length splitter (lop 2" of length off that one above), wide fender flares to house 335/345mm Hoosier A7s, Torson T2-R, lightweight racing seats. That was roughly a $90,000 build...
To be maxed out for ESP it
still needed the A/C ripped out, no roll bar, no rear seat (Laguna Seca kit), wider wheels (18x13" rear), super-light autox only brakes, a forged bottom end Boss302 long block for higher revs, maybe a different intake/TB, 450+ whp, 10" rear spoiler (circa 1960!), an uber-light flywheel and triple disc clutch. And new tires 3-4 times per season. Money money money. I've run against 7 time ESP Champion Maddarash many times and he didn't mess around with using scrub tires or skimping on prep.
This 7.25" triple disc setup and its 14 pounds with the flywheel. The 5.5" units are lighter still
Driving a full prep SP car is a real chore. The clutch is the worst part - its an on/off switch and you will stall it often in the grid, and NEVER want to drive it anywhere else. It feels great on course (as my 7.25" triple does in our TTC Corvette), but its a nightmare to use anywhere else.
I'm not trying to discourage people from building for ESP, but if you have goals outside of your local Region, they need to know the truth. This is an EXPENSIVE class to run in. We were figuring $75,000 to build our 2013 GT into an ESP winning car for 2013... then the SEB changed a bunch of rules and the cost:benefit ratio just didn't make sense. And since 2013 they've allowed in more and more "non-pony cars". Some of what they are allowing in makes no sense to the Old Guard, and people like Maddarash have left. The same has happened to F Street - with BMWs taking most of the top 10 at 2015 Nationals.
When we had the car in STX and STU trim, Amy still daily drove her Mustang. It rode great
Alternatively, STP has
very finite prep limits and is
ONLY PONY CARS. The STP rules allow us to fix all of the suspension and tire flaws on these cars, it gives us headers + cold air + tuning, and has several competitive cars listed. There are no expensive fender flares needed, and the class max width 11" wheels fit under the S197, 4th gen F-body, and 3rd gen F-body. The S550 and 5th gen Camaro can easily fit the 18x10s (sorry Fox/SN95 guys, but your cars can't legally fit the 11" wide wheels). You can still do and should do good dampers/springs/camber adjustment ion STP, but running 1000# springs makes no sense on the lower grip street tires, so you really COULD still street drive an STP car (like on a 550/250 rate setup). No aero allowed, no uber-light flywheel/clutches, no update/backdate allowances, no custom intakes/EFI/fuel systems, no Hoosier tire bills.
Yes, the 315mm Rival-S is a bit spendy, but if you DON'T DAILY DRIVE ON THEM you will get a lot more competitive runs out of a set of those versus a Hoosier - figure 3-4 times as many runs. With 7.5/32" of tread depth and lots of big tread blocks, there's not a point in shaving the Rival-S, either.
BFGoodrich Rival-S in 315/30/18 doesn't have enough tread void or tread depth to need shaving
Anyone that wants to join the SCCA STP Facebook group (people who are thinking of running, not trolls and haters) just click
here. 170 members in the first day it was created.
cheers,
