Suspension Adjustment Info

devildog1679

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I’m going to start Road Racing this spring, all HPDE’s. I’m mechanically inclined but the one thing I don’t know is how to properly setup a car based on how it’s behaving. I have a Brembo 5.0 and am planning the following suspension mods. Koni yellows, Steeda sport springs, and Strano adjustable F/R bars. Is there a book or site where I can read up on adjusting suspensions. The Koni’s and bars are adjustable so I’m sure the info will be helpful. Also would adjustable end links be worth it, if so what do they do exactly? I know I should wait to mod the car after I drive it a few times but I came into some car money and it’s a use it or lose it scenario. If I don’t spend it my wife may take the money and spend on furniture which we don’t need. So any ideas?
 

kevinatfms

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look around in this section, read threads about setups in here and see where people start at. you can ask sam strano and dave about suspension dynamics as they have more info than you could ever imagine about the s197 chassis.

my 2 cents-start neutral and log every change you do and see how you like different setups. talk to people on here for basic info and to people at the track to get more info about how they run and areas they note when running an HPDE. also your instructor will have a wealth of knowledge to help you during your sessions but you can also inquire with them before and after to get suggestions and advice on lines, braking zones and shift points.

"the only stupid question is one not asked..."-no clue who said this
 

vbluep51

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Start with tires then change parts. I would also change the brake lines to SS lines. Those are the only two mods I would do. Get to know the car and the track first. Good luck
 

devildog1679

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look around in this section, read threads about setups in here and see where people start at. you can ask sam strano and dave about suspension dynamics as they have more info than you could ever imagine about the s197 chassis.

my 2 cents-start neutral and log every change you do and see how you like different setups. talk to people on here for basic info and to people at the track to get more info about how they run and areas they note when running an HPDE. also your instructor will have a wealth of knowledge to help you during your sessions but you can also inquire with them before and after to get suggestions and advice on lines, braking zones and shift points.

"the only stupid question is one not asked..."-no clue who said this

I got to talk to Sam anyway since I need to put my order in for his sways.
 

devildog1679

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Start with tires then change parts. I would also change the brake lines to SS lines. Those are the only two mods I would do. Get to know the car and the track first. Good luck

Yep, got SS lines and Pads as well. I'll wait on tires.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Best thing you stated, better tires can cover up mistakes. Spend your first season learning to drive and the dynamics of your car then get better race rubber.

+1,000,000! While the parts kit you're looking at is certainly a good overall package, I MIGHT be inclined to buy the stuff, stick it in the garage still in the boxes, and then go drive the car. When you get to the point where you're outdriving the capability of the stock vehicle (still do the pads, lines optional!), two things are going to happen... First, you're going to realize that you're being held back by some stock part or another, and second, you'll have a solid grasp of what is happening in terms of vehicle dynamics, and how the part you intend to replace is going to help with the issue you're having.

If you throw the whole thing at the car at once, especially as a novice driver, you'll have no idea what's really going on. If the car understeers on corner entry, is it because your braking technique sucks? Is it because you just went into the corner wayyyy too fast? Is it because you have too much front bar dialed in? Is it because your shocks are set wrong? Is it because your tires are heat cycled or overheated? Is it because you snapped your hands over, rather than smoothly feeding in the wheel? With a stock car, you basically are forced to really learn to drive the thing, and when you do, you can start sensing what the car is doing in terms of oversteer/neutral/understeer characteristics in the different phases of different corner types.

I'll give you a hypothetical fer-instance... After a few days of flogging the car, you begin to notice that while initial turn-in is okay, the car starts to push on corner entry. You know this because you've been focusing on the driver mod, and not worrying about bar settings, shock settings, or anything other than basic tire pressures, and you're starting to notice this on just about every slow- to medium-speed corner. Because you now have an understanding of vehicle dynamics, you can intelligently and reasonably analyze the problem as excess body roll transferring too much weight to the outside front tire. Solution? Increase the wheel rate, and/or slow down the compression curve of the dampers. It could be bars, it could be springs, it could be struts, but with some time on the track, you'll have a pretty good idea as to what is REALLY going on.

Experience, in any form, will help you get to a level of understanding where your parts changes stem from desire to fix something, not just a knee-jerk reaction driven by a lust for a long mods list. If you get offered a ride-along with somebody, take it. In ANY kind of car. Possibly the most fun I've had in the right seat was NOT in an F430, or an F458 Italia, or a GT3RS, or a C6ZO6, or an Audi A8, it was in a Miata. It took two laps to get up to speed, it wouldn't accelerate out of a corner worth a damn, and every corner felt like we were scraping the door handles off the thing. That said, the amount of speed those damn things can carry through a corner is simply insane. I can honestly say that following that ride, I started to change a lot of my driving techniques, both physical and mental. When you get a ride with a good driver, spend the first lap or two just glorying in the sensation of imminent death, then start watching the driver, and see HOW he's doing things. Not just where he's getting on and off the brakes, but HOW he's getting on and off the brakes. The transition from being pinned in the seat (acceleration) to hanging from the harnesses (deceleration) to being thrown out the side window (corner entry) to being sucked back into the seat (corner exit) will be violent, but should transition smoothly from one to the next none the less. If it really doesn't feel all that fast until you look out the window and see the scenery MOVING past you, then you're in the car with a DRIVER.

Bottom line is that the package you're looking at is a good solid non-hard-core bit of kit that you won't be unhappy with. I'd go for it, but maybe just hold off installing until you have some time on track with the car to know where you want to go...
 

devildog1679

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+1,000,000! While the parts kit you're looking at is certainly a good overall package, I MIGHT be inclined to buy the stuff, stick it in the garage still in the boxes, and then go drive the car. When you get to the point where you're outdriving the capability of the stock vehicle (still do the pads, lines optional!), two things are going to happen... First, you're going to realize that you're being held back by some stock part or another, and second, you'll have a solid grasp of what is happening in terms of vehicle dynamics, and how the part you intend to replace is going to help with the issue you're having.

If you throw the whole thing at the car at once, especially as a novice driver, you'll have no idea what's really going on. If the car understeers on corner entry, is it because your braking technique sucks? Is it because you just went into the corner wayyyy too fast? Is it because you have too much front bar dialed in? Is it because your shocks are set wrong? Is it because your tires are heat cycled or overheated? Is it because you snapped your hands over, rather than smoothly feeding in the wheel? With a stock car, you basically are forced to really learn to drive the thing, and when you do, you can start sensing what the car is doing in terms of oversteer/neutral/understeer characteristics in the different phases of different corner types.

I'll give you a hypothetical fer-instance... After a few days of flogging the car, you begin to notice that while initial turn-in is okay, the car starts to push on corner entry. You know this because you've been focusing on the driver mod, and not worrying about bar settings, shock settings, or anything other than basic tire pressures, and you're starting to notice this on just about every slow- to medium-speed corner. Because you now have an understanding of vehicle dynamics, you can intelligently and reasonably analyze the problem as excess body roll transferring too much weight to the outside front tire. Solution? Increase the wheel rate, and/or slow down the compression curve of the dampers. It could be bars, it could be springs, it could be struts, but with some time on the track, you'll have a pretty good idea as to what is REALLY going on.

Experience, in any form, will help you get to a level of understanding where your parts changes stem from desire to fix something, not just a knee-jerk reaction driven by a lust for a long mods list. If you get offered a ride-along with somebody, take it. In ANY kind of car. Possibly the most fun I've had in the right seat was NOT in an F430, or an F458 Italia, or a GT3RS, or a C6ZO6, or an Audi A8, it was in a Miata. It took two laps to get up to speed, it wouldn't accelerate out of a corner worth a damn, and every corner felt like we were scraping the door handles off the thing. That said, the amount of speed those damn things can carry through a corner is simply insane. I can honestly say that following that ride, I started to change a lot of my driving techniques, both physical and mental. When you get a ride with a good driver, spend the first lap or two just glorying in the sensation of imminent death, then start watching the driver, and see HOW he's doing things. Not just where he's getting on and off the brakes, but HOW he's getting on and off the brakes. The transition from being pinned in the seat (acceleration) to hanging from the harnesses (deceleration) to being thrown out the side window (corner entry) to being sucked back into the seat (corner exit) will be violent, but should transition smoothly from one to the next none the less. If it really doesn't feel all that fast until you look out the window and see the scenery MOVING past you, then you're in the car with a DRIVER.

Bottom line is that the package you're looking at is a good solid non-hard-core bit of kit that you won't be unhappy with. I'd go for it, but maybe just hold off installing until you have some time on track with the car to know where you want to go...

Great advice. It'll be difficult to let it sit. The springs and shocks are going in because I hate the wheel gap and the bouncy ride. I may hold off on installing the sways. Tomorrow my Corbeau CR1's arrive. Can't stand the stock seats.
 

Sleeper_08

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I agree with your suggestions but as most of us are impatient folks going with the "standard" mods of Koni yellows, Steeda sport springs, and Strano adjustable F/R bars would probably satisfy 90+ percent of us. They would then be learning to drive with a car at a higher plateau, sort of like starting with a Boss 302 LS instead of a stock GT. :)

In addition they of course need to upgrade brake pads and brake fluid.

Once they have a season or two on stock tires then they can upgrade to something stickier.

In my case the main mod I made after a season was adding a Watt's link as it helped make the back end more stable through transitions, i.e. chicanes. I really noticed the effect.
 

Norm Peterson

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Great advice. It'll be difficult to let it sit. The springs and shocks are going in because I hate the wheel gap and the bouncy ride. I may hold off on installing the sways. Tomorrow my Corbeau CR1's arrive. Can't stand the stock seats.
It's probably best if you start tracking the car when its behavior is still pretty close to what you're used to driving. One downside to improving lateral grip and tinkering with the understeer/oversteer balance too soon is that you'll get less warning about getting too close to the limit than your level of experience can support. Know that cornering at 0.5 lateral g runs away and hides from the vast majority of drivers that you'll ever encounter on the street, and that at a track day you're looking toward still higher cornering levels where tire behavior may be quite a bit different from what your whole lifetime as a driver or passenger has conditioned you to expect. You won't get to do a [CTRL]+[ALT]+[DEL] system reset in the midst of a screw-up here, just both feet in and count on going agricultural.

My son turns 41 a little less than 3 months from now, and even if I didn't care what happened to the car I still wouldn't turn him loose on a big track in my stock-sprung Mustang with the bar and damper adjustments that I run on a daily basis.

Buy the parts, but as Dave mentioned there is no hurry to install them or to start playing with the adjustments when you do get them onto the car. Plan on sneaking up on a "final" set of adjustments. "Final" in quotes, because that's going to be a moving target.

The other thing that Dave mentioned that sticks out to me is to learn how to drive "momentum style". Just because your Mustang has enough power to be driven in a "point and shoot/stab-and-steer" manner (as was alluded to in your other thread with respect to RWD and understeer) doesn't mean that that's the best way to drive it. Even a few of the better dirt track racers are starting to understand this.

It would be nice if there was a little more to go on with respect to your own driving experience - I can't even guess how long you've been driving, never mind what might constitute 'normal driving' wherever it is that you live (driving in the hills of PA might be just a bit more demanding and perhaps a little more applicable to track day driving than driving in and around NYC, for example). Any autocross?

That said, I'd start the Konis out full soft, and if the ride feels 'floaty' with the stiffer-than-OE springs firm them up only enough to make the car feel more "stuck down". A little goes a long way here - you should clearly feel the difference that a quarter turn change makes and eighth turn changes should at least be perceptible. If you don't instantly notice a quarter turn adjustment right after making it, you aren't ready to make meaningful damper adjustments. Flame not intended.


Norm
 
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SoundGuyDave

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It's probably best if you start tracking the car when its behavior is still pretty close to what you're used to driving. One downside to improving lateral grip and tinkering with the understeer/oversteer balance too soon is that you'll get less warning about getting too close to the limit than your level of experience can support... You won't get to do a [CTRL]+[ALT]+[DEL] system reset in the midst of a screw-up here, just both feet in and count on going agricultural.


Beautifully said! I will echo my earlier sentiment, in that if you have an oversteer "event" where the front and rear swap ends on you, you could be left wondering whether it was your driving, or your adjustment that caused it... I've seen FAR too many novice-level drivers obsess and worry FAR too much about what adjustments to make to the car, and miss the big picture, that they are simply not hitting their marks.
 

devildog1679

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Tons of great advice. Thanks to all. Signing up with NASA since I heard they have great instructors.
 

UMI Sales

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I like the tire advice (to use old tires before getting good ones).

I spent many years in oval track including asphalt late model. We would practice and tune on old tires. When you'd put stickers on, voila, super car appears.

ramey
 

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