The Great Oil Debate

[VTXFrank]

So here's an update on the Amsoil MTG I put in my car last week.

We woke up to a 29° morning and 20mph winds here in Santa Rosa Beach yesterday. The windchill was something like 15°. My car has sat outside the last three nights while we get some stuff in the garage done. The last of our shit from Enterprise, AL. Boxes everywhere.

Anyway, I started up the car and let the engine warm up to operating temp. Let the seat and interior warm up as well. ;-) I left my driveway and had some hard 1-2 shifts. Not grinding, just hard to get into gear. By the time I drove the 1/4 mile to get out of my neighborhood and on the 65mph 4-lane road known as 98, the trans was shifting very well. By the time I went a mile down the road at 65, the trans was shifting smooth again.

So far, I prefer this oil, by a long shot, over either of the Ford OEM oils.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Here some test data on BG Synchro shift ll http://www.kansasbg.com/Complete_Set_of_Spec_and_Tech/0792.pdf



john

Slightly thicker than ATF, slightly thinner than Synchromesh.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

So here's an update on the Amsoil MTG I put in my car last week.

We woke up to a 29° morning and 20mph winds here in Santa Rosa Beach yesterday. The windchill was something like 15°. My car has sat outside the last three nights while we get some stuff in the garage done. The last of our shit from Enterprise, AL. Boxes everywhere.

Anyway, I started up the car and let the engine warm up to operating temp. Let the seat and interior warm up as well. ;-) I left my driveway and had some hard 1-2 shifts. Not grinding, just hard to get into gear. By the time I drove the 1/4 mile to get out of my neighborhood and on the 65mph 4-lane road known as 98, the trans was shifting very well. By the time I went a mile down the road at 65, the trans was shifting smooth again.

So far, I prefer this oil, by a long shot, over either of the Ford OEM oils.

^ these are the results typical in Florida winter weather. I think MTG is an excellent choice for this transmission.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[JAJ]

i think this is partially true

depends on the level of noise you are experiencing, a little bit of whine that can be heard with the radio off or down really low, i think that is gonna be somewhat normal for some of the boxes

but when its loud enough that you can clearly hear it, even with the radio up, that is probably a sign of a problem

With any of the aftermarket shifter upgrades - the complete unit from MGW or a bracket from JHR or one of the others - people report an increase in transmission noise in the passenger compartment because of the stiff bushings on the rear bracket. My MGW shifter not only had the hard bushings, the optional stainless steel heatshield was touching the body at one corner. The two things together made the shifter into a stethoscope and I could hear every little sound from the gearbox. Over the time I was testing oils I got quite an education on the full range of "normal" noises.

There are gear whine sounds, rattles, clunks and other interesting sounds as the gearbox does its job. Because of the metal to metal connection to the engine, there's a lot of engine noise as well. The same transmission (mine) can sound silent (with a thick oil that's still cool) or rattle and whine like it's going to fall apart (thinner oil). But even making that noise, there's nothing actually wrong with it. I realized that I could turn the noise on and off just by switching oils.

So, how do you get rid of the noise? If you study pictures of the gearbox and shifter assembly, you can see there are only two paths for sound to travel along to get from the transmission into the shifter and then into the cabin: the mounting bracket and the shifter linkage rod. My fix was to put a wrap of hushmat around the shifter linkage shaft between the two universal joints and cover about 4" of the bracket rod between the bends. Then I put more on the MGW shifter body itself and the top of the heat shield.

The effect was remarkable. Even with the hard bushings on the bracket, it's quieter than stock. I'm pretty sure the stock shifter would respond equally well if there's "excessive" gear whine on a gearbox that's otherwise working fine. Basically, Ford put phosphate coating on the gears to fix it, and I put Hushmat on the linkage. I bet my solution costs less!

 

[JDos1]

i think this is partially true

depends on the level of noise you are experiencing, a little bit of whine that can be heard with the radio off or down really low, i think that is gonna be somewhat normal for some of the boxes

but when its loud enough that you can clearly hear it, even with the radio up, that is probably a sign of a problem

+1 on this.

I took mine in to the dealer last Monday (Jan 2) to have the front left LCA looked at because it had a loud clunk going over speedbumps and just asked if they'd take a listen to my transmission and test drive it.

There was a LOUD whine from the transmission that could be heard in every gear but 5th. It honestly sounded like a supercharger. Not quite as loud as the whine on the stock Eaton M112 on the Termi's but not much quieter either. I also had notchy shifts from 1/2 and 2/3. It was VERY notchy when cold and still notchy when warmed up (though not as bad). Occasionally third would also lockout on hard acceleration.

Monday night my service manager called and told me they'd be keeping it over night and tearing the trans down on Tuesday. Tuesday night he called and told me they'd be keeping the car til the following Tuesday as they would be putting a new transmission in it. Wednesday we rode up to the dealership to look at the internals of the old transmission. Sure enough a couple of bearings had started to go out and the metallic flakes/shards floating around in transmission had damaged a couple of synchros. Unfortunately I forgot to ask which bearings they were and wasn't paying close enough attention to tell as I was excited about getting a transmission that worked properly. lol

I got the car back Tuesday and drove it on whatever fluid they filled it with until last night when I reinstalled my Barton shifter bracket and filled it with Amsoil MTG. Now I've got a butter-smooth transmission that shifts fine. I would be more than 100% with the MT82 if it shifts like it does currently from now on. Honestly, the only thing more I could ask for is that they bring it's production to North America, preferably the USA or Canada.

My dealer's service dept was great and really helped me out. They've got a super nice shop that's kept spotless. I was really impressed with them, especially after seeing how many people on the forums say their dealers are being a pain to work with about this transmission.

 

[way2qk4u2c]

Amsoil has always been good to me.

 

[atistang]

+1 on this.

I took mine in to the dealer last Monday (Jan 2) to have the front left LCA looked at because it had a loud clunk going over speedbumps and just asked if they'd take a listen to my transmission and test drive it.

There was a LOUD whine from the transmission that could be heard in every gear but 5th. It honestly sounded like a supercharger. Not quite as loud as the whine on the stock Eaton M112 on the Termi's but not much quieter either. I also had notchy shifts from 1/2 and 2/3. It was VERY notchy when cold and still notchy when warmed up (though not as bad). Occasionally third would also lockout on hard acceleration.

Monday night my service manager called and told me they'd be keeping it over night and tearing the trans down on Tuesday. Tuesday night he called and told me they'd be keeping the car til the following Tuesday as they would be putting a new transmission in it. Wednesday we rode up to the dealership to look at the internals of the old transmission. Sure enough a couple of bearings had started to go out and the metallic flakes/shards floating around in transmission had damaged a couple of synchros. Unfortunately I forgot to ask which bearings they were and wasn't paying close enough attention to tell as I was excited about getting a transmission that worked properly. lol

I got the car back Tuesday and drove it on whatever fluid they filled it with until last night when I reinstalled my Barton shifter bracket and filled it with Amsoil MTG. Now I've got a butter-smooth transmission that shifts fine. I would be more than 100% with the MT82 if it shifts like it does currently from now on. Honestly, the only thing more I could ask for is that they bring it's production to North America, preferably the USA or Canada.

My dealer's service dept was great and really helped me out. They've got a super nice shop that's kept spotless. I was really impressed with them, especially after seeing how many people on the forums say their dealers are being a pain to work with about this transmission.

good to hear, yet again this is another story that makes me nervous about what will happen after the warranty is up. i only get to drive my car from april - nov. so right now i hope one of two things

1. the quiet whine gets bad with in the next few thousand miles

or

2. the whine never gets any worst, because right now its just about like my truck, so i know its there but i am used to a quiet whine so it doesnt bug me


i almost feel like filling with mtg might be just masking a potential problem long enough to get me through the warranty period. that would suck

 

[5lho]

Mine was rough at low temps right out of the gate but, as the miles come up, it's becoming less of an issue. I'm a believer in minimal intervention so, a Steeda base bushing will go on first, to firm up the shifter, then a more weighty shift knob if I'm still in need of fangling, then a full shifter. I have no noise, just, the usual factory notchiness and slight imprecision.

Tough to make a cost-effective mass produced manual trans and shifter that'll take nearly 400 lbs/ft of torque, 412 HP and move a car weighing in over 3600 pounds, without some degree of notchiness form the big gears and big synchros required. This is why most manufacturers, even high end ones like Lambo, are weaning customers off the manuals and into paddle shifted automatics or dual clutch setups.

 

[fake]

I have noticed the more I drive with the MTG, the shifting is smoothing out more and more. Almost as smooth as the MTL I use to have in my tranny.

 

[Napoleon85]

Mine was rough at low temps right out of the gate but, as the miles come up, it's becoming less of an issue. I'm a believer in minimal intervention so, a Steeda base bushing will go on first, to firm up the shifter, then a more weighty shift knob if I'm still in need of fangling, then a full shifter. I have no noise, just, the usual factory notchiness and slight imprecision.

Very interesting that yours is getting better over time. Most people that have notchiness or lockout issues state it gets worse with more miles. Keep us updated.

Tough to make a cost-effective mass produced manual trans and shifter that'll take nearly 400 lbs/ft of torque, 412 HP and move a car weighing in over 3600 pounds, without some degree of notchiness form the big gears and big synchros required. This is why most manufacturers, even high end ones like Lambo, are weaning customers off the manuals and into paddle shifted automatics or dual clutch setups.

Tough, but shouldn't be impossible. It's a problem that's made much worse when the chosen transmission is rated for less torque than the stock engine puts out, and minor bolt-ons push it WAY past the threshold.

I have noticed the more I drive with the MTG, the shifting is smoothing out more and more. Almost as smooth as the MTL I use to have in my tranny.

Great to hear, I'm hearing more and more good things about the MTG. I need to sign up for the preferred customer thing and order engine oil and filter as well as some MTG.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

I have noticed the more I drive with the MTG, the shifting is smoothing out more and more. Almost as smooth as the MTL I use to have in my tranny.

Same thing happened with my T6060 and Amsoil ATF.

The more I drove it, the smoother it got.

 

[way2qk4u2c]

If anyone needs help getting some amsoil products...I can help you out.

 

[Napoleon85]

If anyone needs help getting some amsoil products...I can help you out.

Cheaper than the preferred customer program?

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Cheaper than the preferred customer program?

Not even Amsoil independent dealers can buy it cheaper up front than a preferred customer.

Preferred Customer Program

 

[way2qk4u2c]

Not really cheaper than that program for 3 qts of mtg. If you ordered alot I could go cheaper.

I might be able to order a small amount and not have you pay the preferred program price.

Exactly unleashed beast said

 

[JDos1]

good to hear, yet again this is another story that makes me nervous about what will happen after the warranty is up. i only get to drive my car from april - nov. so right now i hope one of two things

1. the quiet whine gets bad with in the next few thousand miles

or

2. the whine never gets any worst, because right now its just about like my truck, so i know its there but i am used to a quiet whine so it doesnt bug me


i almost feel like filling with mtg might be just masking a potential problem long enough to get me through the warranty period. that would suck

Mine started at around 7k miles and kept getting louder and louder. I'm at 22.5k now. Just take it in right before the warranty is up and have them check it out.
It also makes me nervous about this new trans. Nothings to say it won't happen to another transmission. I'm hoping not and I'm hoping that the MTG helps provide superior lubrication to keep the bearings from wearing prematurely and causing synchro damage.

 

[JAJ]

Mine started at around 7k miles and kept getting louder and louder. I'm at 22.5k now. Just take it in right before the warranty is up and have them check it out.
It also makes me nervous about this new trans. Nothings to say it won't happen to another transmission. I'm hoping not and I'm hoping that the MTG helps provide superior lubrication to keep the bearings from wearing prematurely and causing synchro damage.

Having rebuilt broken transmissions a few times, my observation is that when a bearing fails, it's usually because of trash floating around in the gearbox from a chipped tooth or some other fracture event. Changing the oil will mask the noise for a while but usually not for very long because the bearing will go completely sideways within a few hundred miles. The noise will become unbearable fairly quickly.

As for how to get the most out of your warranty, here's how I did it once. On the last BMW I owned that went out of warranty, about three months before the warranty ended, I paid the dealer to inspect the car for items needing repair. I paid for the inspection, but they knew exactly what to look for and found a handful of warranty items I never would have noticed. Paying them to find work that the OEM pays for sounds like a conflict of interest, but nobody says you can't do it.

 

[JDos1]

Having rebuilt broken transmissions a few times, my observation is that when a bearing fails, it's usually because of trash floating around in the gearbox from a chipped tooth or some other fracture event. Changing the oil will mask the noise for a while but usually not for very long because the bearing will go completely sideways within a few hundred miles. The noise will become unbearable fairly quickly.

As for how to get the most out of your warranty, here's how I did it once. On the last BMW I owned that went out of warranty, about three months before the warranty ended, I paid the dealer to inspect the car for items needing repair. I paid for the inspection, but they knew exactly what to look for and found a handful of warranty items I never would have noticed. Paying them to find work that the OEM pays for sounds like a conflict of interest, but nobody says you can't do it.

Improper lubrication can also cause it. Depends on how you look at it. Improper lubrication could cause the notchiness/grinding to tear away at synchro teeth and the metallic flakes from the teeth are what destroys the bearing or just having a crap bearing to begin with which produces trash that help wear away at synchro teeth. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not a bad idea. A cheaper though not as effective alternative would be to look up things that become common problems for the model, then inspect those common trouble spots yourself and see if anything seems odd, then take it in.

 

[5lho]

The tough balance is always: Gear size v. synchro size v. trans size/weight v. cost. You need big gears to hold this much power and that means smaller, harder-working synchros if you keep case size and weight the same or in mind. Plus, there's fact that everyone wants synchros on every gear now, which is ridiculous, in my view. I'd happily line up the gear once to get reverse or first if it meant more substantial synchro rings on 2-6.

 

[JAJ]

Improper lubrication can also cause it. Depends on how you look at it. Improper lubrication could cause the notchiness/grinding to tear away at synchro teeth and the metallic flakes from the teeth are what destroys the bearing or just having a crap bearing to begin with which produces trash that help wear away at synchro teeth. Correct me if I'm wrong...

I agree with you. The biggest concern I had with my MT-82 was getting a lube into it that would allow it to shift smoothly at all of the temperatures I encounter so I wouldn't have to worry about damaging it myself. Difficult shifting can lead to damage that leads to failure. Everything from bent shift forks to chipped teeth to prematurely worn synchro's can happen when the shifting isn't easy, so easy shifting became a priority.