Well, phooey...

[kcbrown]

So I was going to get Ground Control coilovers and camber plates, custom made to my specifications.

Seems they aren't sufficiently interested in doing that. My shop has been working with them since the 90s, and now they're no longer being responsive.

Screw it. I'm cancelling the order.

So, new plan: I'm getting camber plates and Koni Sports (yellows) for now. I'll keep the existing springs. The camber plates will take care of the camber issues (the primary reason for me making any changes at all), and the stock springs will maintain the existing ride height.

Chances are very high that I'll be getting Vorshlag camber plates. Are they now available, or is that still an issue at this time? I lean strongly towards them because they make multiple adapters and they're highly regarded and, from what I've seen, very well engineered. But if they're not available, then I'll have to compromise on that, too.


If I do get coilovers in the future, it'll be something custom made to my needs. I'll have someone fabricate them from scratch with my choice of dampers if I have to. But I'm not nearly a good enough driver yet to warrant going that far. Seeing how only Ground Control seemed to be willing to step up to that particular plate, and seeing how that no longer seems to be the case, it looks like custom fabrication is the only option left on the table, and that's too much trouble and expense for where I am at the moment.


I was rather looking forward to experimenting with higher spring rates, but perhaps it's for the best. In light of the discussion about camber and how it relates to the front lower control arm arc, my chosen spring rates might not be correct anyway. So I'll live with the "soft" stock rates for now, get better damping control in rebound, and see where that takes me.


Frankly, since I'm already rather impressed by the stock suspension, I don't think I'm going to be too displeased by this turn of events. I'll revisit the issue after I've got some time under my belt with the aforementioned setup. It'll probably be another year or something. That's plenty of time to figure out where to go next, and I'll certainly be able to pay for the next step at that point.


Even so ... I'm not happy.

 

[skwerl]

Why try to forge new ground when so many people with so much more talent and experience have been doing the research for you for decades? IMO seek out what is working best for others and copy that. Trying new custom setups means you end up with lots of expensive parts that don't work well.

 

[kcbrown]

Why try to forge new ground when so many people with so much more talent and experience have been doing the research for you for decades? IMO seek out what is working best for others and copy that. Trying new custom setups means you end up with lots of expensive parts that don't work well.

Because the ground they forge doesn't meet my needs. Ride height, in particular.

Nobody keeps the stock ride height. Nobody. That is a hard requirement for me because, firstly, my car is a daily driver and, secondly, lowering the car screws with the front geometry in ways that demand even greater spring rates up front than you'd otherwise opt to run. See this for a more detailed explanation.


Remember, most people around here are "because racecar" first, and "daily driver" is relegated to a distant second. That's not me. I'm looking for a balance that, from what I can tell, is unique. I think it's telling that Norm, for one, appears to be running a nearly stock suspension, and he seems to know more about suspension dynamics than nearly anyone else here.


My selection of parts was intended to make experimentation possible without requiring a change of anything but spring rates and, maybe, damper revalving.

 

[todcp]

A possible solution for your desire to stay stock height.
Give GC another try with this idea......
I recently purchased a ground control conversion kit to go with my standard "Koni Yellow" as I did not want to go lower than 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. I could have also stayed at stock height with the conversion kit as the kit allows the use of standard Koni Yellows instead of the GC complete kit that uses a shortened Koni of their own design.
My conversion kit spring rates were recommended by GC for my desire to be mostly track oriented. The springs are 430# front and 225# rear.
I also have a Fay2 watts and Hellwig adj sways front and rear.
First track day with this new setup is Nov 1. On the street I like the new set up a lot. The track with Dot R tires is a different animal so I will withhold judgement on how it really handles.
One more thought. As a retired insurance exec with lots of experience with lawsuits for product liability; GC may not want to, or be able to, sell an unique set up that they feel exposes them to liability for odd handling; so if you ask for something they think is a bad combination they should not sell it. Even if you accept responsibility they could be sued if the combination contributed to an accident.

 

[kcbrown]

A possible solution for your desire to stay stock height.
Give GC another try with this idea......
I recently purchased a ground control conversion kit to go with my standard "Koni Yellow" as I did not want to go lower than 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch. I could have also stayed at stock height with the conversion kit as the kit allows the use of standard Koni Yellows instead of the GC complete kit that uses a shortened Koni of their own design.

I've thought of that, and may wind up doing precisely that. But if so, then I may as well first see how the car behaves with just the Konis and the stock springs.

Believe me, not all is lost as a result of this.

One more thought. As a retired insurance exec with lots of experience with lawsuits for product liability; GC may not want to, or be able to, sell an unique set up that they feel exposes them to liability for odd handling; so if you ask for something they think is a bad combination they should not sell it. Even if you accept responsibility they could be sued if the combination contributed to an accident.

If that were the case, I would have expected them to say as much. Mere silence on their end is unacceptable.

Keep in mind that they originally said they could (and would) do this and that they'd have it done by the beginning of last week, so if they're backing out now due to liability reasons, then it's because something has changed on their end, and I have every reason to expect them to communicate that to me.

 

[DocB]

kcbrown- from experience, I have learned, especially of late, that the best way for you to do what is right for you is to do your own research, computations, design, and engineering. Run it, modify and tweek from there.

First off, the mods they have done are for their car, not yours.

Secondly, you will find out real soon, that many cannot back up their rational for a mod with hard data. They just did it because someone else did it.

Thirdly, just because someone else did it, doesn't mean it's right or good (good for you).

It doesn't hurt to see and know what others are doing, but do your own engineering and you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

 

[todcp]

"If that were the case, I would have expected them to say as much. Mere silence on their end is unacceptable."

I would have to agree with the above.

And your car will indeed be transformed by just replacing the dampers with Koni SR.T or Yellow. If you think you may upgrade more suspension later then spend the extra for the yellows. The best start to great handling is to replace the awful stock dampers that contributed to my GT Track Pack lifting and diving like a porpoise. My brother also came to hate his new 14 Shelby due to the handling and ride until Sam Strano set him up with Koni Yellows. Now he is a very happy owner. In my opinion and experience dampers are critical to satisfaction with the S197. For a street car nothing more is really needed.
I also think someone should sell firmer spring setups with little or no drop

 

[csamsh]

Secondly, you will find out real soon, that many cannot back up their rationale for a mod with hard data. They just did it because someone else did it.

Well that's the truth. Gotta see those reduced lap/run times or screw it.

 

[Mineral_'01]

Well this sucks. I was looking forward to your experiment with the unusual spring rates in the rear. Who have you been working with at Ground Control? Donovan took care of my order and always replied to my emails within one day. Maybe there is some other reason as to why they are not responding to you, like some kind of emergency or something? Hopefully you will hear back from them soon.

 

[2008 V6]

KC – I would recommend a stiffer spring than the Sports. I ran them with Koni yellows for about 5 months on my wife’s car. I replaced them with Steeda comp springs and these are still way too soft - Approximately 2 years now. (Very nice for street – kept the wife very happy). Even with thick swaybars, the roll is severe with street tires – P265-40-18. I could put the car on the bumpstops – makes for interesting handling when apex / curb jumping. If running an R compound / Wider tire – you will not be happy. Very good compromise springs and they give decent ground clearance for the STREET. My car with me driving is approximately 3500LBs – yours heavier

 

[claudermilk]

As far as the Vorshlag plates & Koni yellows, I can at least say that I am very pleased with those. AFAIK, the backorder situation is long past now. My set was caught up in that and I installed a few months ago. Even if there is a wait on them, it's worth it. I think a large part of the improved steering response I have noted upon installing my suspension parts comes directly from the plates. No more big sloppy rubber bushing, just a giant bearing. Plus, no increased NVH that I have noted from that part.

 

[kcbrown]

Well this sucks. I was looking forward to your experiment with the unusual spring rates in the rear. Who have you been working with at Ground Control? Donovan took care of my order and always replied to my emails within one day. Maybe there is some other reason as to why they are not responding to you, like some kind of emergency or something? Hopefully you will hear back from them soon.

It's my shop that they're not responding to, and my shop has been after them for the past couple of weeks or so, and that is after we sent them the info they needed (ride height measurements -- you'd think they'd just know the stock ride height). The shop owner has been working with GC since the 90s, and has (from what I'm told) dealt with the GC owner directly. It hasn't worked out here. So be it.

We've already cancelled. The new plan is now in play.

The GC coilover conversion kit sounds interesting, but at when I go with coilovers, it'll be with the best dampers I can lay my hands on (that meet my needs, of course), custom made to my needs. It may be quite a while before that happens.

Or it may be that I'll end up sticking with what I've got. Remember: I do like the way the car handles already. My driving style is smooth enough that I don't notice the squat and dive (or, more precisely, don't find it too objectionable), and the car doesn't feel unresponsive to me. Mainly, I wanted to experiment to see what, if anything, I was missing. I'll really need to be convinced that it's the car that's somehow holding me back, and it'll have to be related to the fun factor of driving the car, before I go with coilovers at this point. A tall order, to say the least, since most people make suspension changes to improve lap times, not necessarily to improve the enjoyment of driving the car.

The Konis plus camber plates should take care of the damping issues I've identified (mainly, too much compression damping, and not quite enough rebound damping) that, so far, have primarily had an effect on the ride quality. I'm expecting a substantial improvement in the ride from these. After all, the stock dampers are universally regarded as "terrible", and these are widely regarded as quite a lot better, and I'm keeping the stock spring rates so there will be no negative effects on the ride from going to stiffer springs.


It's a good thing I can afford to experiment like this...

 

[DPE]

I did basically the same thing on my 2010; Steeda upper mounts in front, Koni yellows, and OEM springs. The improvement in handling is truly night and day. That wasted motion you feel on turn-in (and everywhere else) is suddenly gone, yet the ride doesn't suffer. I think you'll be quite happy with the setup for now, and maybe forever. Spring rates are still too soft, and I too wish someone would make a higher rate spring that maybe lowers the car a half inch front and rear, but that animal doesn't seem to exist. As has been stated multiple times in this thread, shocks are the biggest improvement you can make.

I know nothing about them, and a search revealed one unhappy customer from a few years ago (that I would guess was an anomaly) and no other users to speak of, but Steeda makes their own coilovers using custom valved Tokico D-specs and your choice of spring rates and they imply on their website that said coilovers can be set to OEM ride height. I happen to have personal experience comparing D-specs and Koni Sports on two otherwise identical cars in both road and track conditions (RX-8s) and can say that Konis are simply better shocks, but the D-specs weren't bad and no doubt would be a large upgrade over Ford OEM. Combined with adjustable ride height and options on spring rate, it could be something worth looking at. I plan on getting more details on them over the winter once I'm ready for my own suspension project; still probably end up on Konis in one form or another, but it appears there is another option for those of us who are relatively lowering-averse.

 

[modernbeat]

...Steeda makes their own coilovers using custom valved Tokico D-specs and your choice of spring rates and they imply on their website that said coilovers can be set to OEM ride height...

Be careful when manufacturers say that. You -can- set all of our adjustable height coilovers to stock height. But when you do that you are outside the sweet spot for the stroke of the damper. You end up with a huge compression stroke and no, or very little droop. While you can make a bunch of other changes to try to work with that setup, it's difficult and still compromised.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

kcbrown- from experience, I have learned, especially of late, that the best way for you to do what is right for you is to do your own research, computations, design, and engineering. Run it, modify and tweek from there.

First off, the mods they have done are for their car, not yours.

Secondly, you will find out real soon, that many cannot back up their rational for a mod with hard data. They just did it because someone else did it.

Thirdly, just because someone else did it, doesn't mean it's right or good (good for you).

It doesn't hurt to see and know what others are doing, but do your own engineering and you will be pleasantly surprised at the outcome.

Well... yea, it sometimes makes sense to "buck the norm" and pave your own trail. And if you have a lot of resources available (time, money, engineering expertise, fabrication skills, custom shock valving tools, and test equipment) and are dealing with a chassis that is new or ignored by the aftermarket, this approach makes sense. I have done that myself more than a few times. The "internet says you cannot fit that wheel", or "the internet says that spring rate won't work". Testing, diligence, and engineering can prove the internet wrong.

Back in 2010 we jumped into a 5.0L S197 and found that there wasn't much in the way of what we considered "good" dampers on the market. Just a bunch of stock ride height twin tubes or coilovers made from generic twin tube inserts, paired with camber plate designs we knew were noisy, hard to adjust, or both. Tons of "lowering springs" that were all too soft for performance handling/competition. Nobody was running wheels wide enough for these heavy cars (18x9.5" was the big stuff, other than some heavy 10-10.5" wide wheels that poked 3/4" past the fenders). The swaybars were not ideal (and many didn't have one out for the 2011-up cars at the time), and there seemed to be just a glut of bolt on doo-dads that didn't do much except lighten the wallet.

We already had an early S197 camber plate with our name on it but I hated the design (hard to adjust) and wouldn't sell it. We had worked with AST back in 2008 and come up with an early coilover monotube adjustable design but it wasn't perfect and needed some work. So after we bought our little 2011 GT we started to get to work, working with AST for dampers, Whiteline for bars and arms/Watts, D-Force then Forgestar for wheels, and many other companies - to come up with something new. We used our resources and tapped into those of other groups we trusted and together we made some new offerings that ruffled some feathers at first... then became popular and more mainstream.

We had new AST coilovers designed to the lengths and valving we wanted, then set-up a test day with AST-USA (now HVT) and Vorshlag folks in attendance and further revalved shocks on the spot, to work with 4 different sets of tires we tested that day on a timed test course with 5 different drivers. We made a ton of headway that day and continued to refine these dampers with this group for the next 2 years to get a set-up we really liked BOTH on the street and on the track or autocross course.

Whoever told the OP's that you cannot have good ride quality or good handling with a lowered ride height is doing him a disservice. True, a lot of lowered coilovers have craptastic ride quality, but that isn't always the case. Lowering the Center of Gravity can and WILL benefit handling, even with an altered roll center. I see people go bonkers over minutia like "roll center correction" but then race on spring rates 1/2 or 1/4 of what they need, and do so with terrible dampers. You are over thinking this - you will not be setting the track or autocross competition fields on fire with the stock 4x4 ride heights.

Yes, lowering a car does alter geometries, but the biggest changes happen out back - and there are known good ways to fix this with some simple, cost effective, and SCCA-legal parts (rear LCA relocation brackets are some of the best money spent on a lowered S197). Don't be afraid to trust the folks racing and winning in S197 Mustangs, especially those that have sold suspensions to hundreds of happy Mustang owners.

My best advice is: drive a lot of different set-ups if at all possible. Go to track events and ride with people, if allowed (it helps to be an Instructor). No amount of "internet wisdom" can over-ride the first hand experience of riding with someone else that has spent money on a suspension set-up you are interested in. I'm going to a track day this Saturday, not to compete, but to give folks rides in various customer Mustangs with AST, MCS and other suspensions. Seeing is believing, and I've sold a lot of suspensions to people after they have ridden in one of our cars or one of our customer's cars.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet. Believe competition results, and your first hand impressions of riding in cars. Some people have a lot of free time on their hands and really want to defend their decisions and sometimes write ridiculous things, and if they post it enough times people start to believe it. I guess you could say that about me, but ... we do have a lot of happy customers and competition results to back up most of what I say...

Now if someone comes to us and wants a custom coilover made to work at stock ride heights, we will ALWAYS first ask them why. There have been a few times where this has happened, and almost every single time we address the REAL issue (ride concerns) and work around some big misconceptions. Sometimes they have a legitimate issue (rallycross use, snow tires, some weird class rule) and we first quote (not cheap) then sometimes build a custom set-up to meet those needs, but I don't know of many shops willing to spend the time and resources need to make a one-off SUPER TALL coilover for one customer. The problem is - its going to take a lot of work, some testing on the car, custom fabrication & machining to make this unusual set-up. And in the end its going to be fairly slow, compromised result that will cost a LOT to make for ONE set.

We have worked with AST on a number of occasions to make stock length coilovers for SCCA Stock class. Custom housings plus we always had to make the custom spring perches made to work with their OEM springs, and make it fit within the tortured "Stock" rules in this set of SCCA classes. It was expensive and in the end these dampers couldn't really be used with coilover springs at a lowered ride height if the person left Stock class. But there were all sorts of exploits we could utilize to make the cars faster for that particular goofy set of classes. Super high Nitrogen pressures to make up for lack of spring rate, double adjustables with remotes with wacky valving to jack the car down onto the bump stops after a slalom. Silly stuff - and things that could easily be exceeded with 4 simple coilover springs and some proper camber adjustment (neither of which was allowed in Stock class). So if there's a compelling reason, and you have the funds, somebody will build it. But just doing it because you read the roll centers would change ... that's not a good enough reason for most shops, because that's not looking at the Big Picture. The car will be considerably faster at a lowered ride height, and if done correctly, your ride quality will take only a minimal impact.

Cheers,

 

[Pentalab]

Frankly, since I'm already rather impressed by the stock suspension, I don't think I'm going to be too displeased by this turn of events. I'll revisit the issue after I've got some time under my belt with the aforementioned setup. It'll probably be another year or something. That's plenty of time to figure out where to go next, and I'll certainly be able to pay for the next step at that point.


Even so ... I'm not happy.

How can anybody be impressed with the stock oem suspension ? Sure it rides fairly smooth around town, and that's about it. My 2010 would nose dive on braking... and back end lifted a bunch, which was far worse than I thought. Hit the gas, and the front end lifts like crazy, back end squats. Take a left hander, and it rolls to the right..and vice versa. The oem cars have no camber adjustment. Mine was -1.1 deg on pass side..and -1.4 deg on driver's side, lets try and at least make em the same. Without the watts link + tru-trac, the back end is all over the map...esp hitting bumps on corner's. Lower the car any amount, and it requires lca relocate brackets real bad, or suffer wheel hop. All this stuff is fairly straight forward to change/correct /install. For a DD around town car, the stock suspension is probably good enough. Any more than that, it's short comings are readily apparent.

 

[kcbrown]

How can anybody be impressed with the stock oem suspension ? Sure it rides fairly smooth around town, and that's about it.

I have the 2014 Track Package. Same as the 2011+ Brembo cars, from what I can tell.

It's substantially different from your 2010 in many respects as regards handling, at least from what I've read.

My 2010 would nose dive on braking... and back end lifted a bunch, which was far worse than I thought. Hit the gas, and the front end lifts like crazy, back end squats.

Mine does that some, but the important thing is that it's not distracting.

Now, it may be that I tend not to notice these things too much from this car because I drive it extremely smoothly, and all of my attention is on where I'm going and what I'm doing. None of my control inputs are ever abrupt unless I do something wrong. That goes for braking as well. It takes about a half second or longer for me to go from initial application to full pedal pressure.

Take a left hander, and it rolls to the right..and vice versa. The oem cars have no camber adjustment.

That's why I'm getting camber plates.

Mine was -1.1 deg on pass side..and -1.4 deg on driver's side, lets try and at least make em the same. Without the watts link + tru-trac, the back end is all over the map...esp hitting bumps on corner's. Lower the car any amount, and it requires lca relocate brackets real bad, or suffer wheel hop.

I have no interest in lowering the car. Not only would even a 1.5 inch drop result in relatively little improvement in side to side weight transfer (7%), it results in much more body roll (18%), enough so that you would have to nearly double the front spring rate up front, if you were starting with stock (131 lb/in) springs, to counteract the additional roll.

My car is a daily driver and I have steep driveways, speed bumps, etc., to contend with. The front is low enough as it is. I might be willing to lower it by perhaps half an inch, but there would be no real advantage to doing so, and lots of disadvantages.

Honestly, it looks to me like lowering these cars is worthwhile only if you're going for no-compromises track performance. Otherwise, you wind up dealing with all kinds of issues, like pinion angle changes, roll center changes (and the resulting increase in roll that results), anti-squat decreases, etc. You have to put a bunch of additional parts on the car just to get it back to what it was prior to lowering it.

That is why I wanted custom coilovers made: to avoid all of those suspension geometry issues while gaining some of the advantages of going with better dampers and higher spring rates.

All this stuff is fairly straight forward to change/correct /install. For a DD around town car, the stock suspension is probably good enough. Any more than that, it's short comings are readily apparent.

Not to me. But then, it may be that my driving style doesn't reveal them.

I've found the stock suspension to grip very well (1.1 to 1.2G) in the corners, to be easily controlled, to be responsive in the transitions (yes, even autocross slaloms), etc. Remember that this thing is right up there with the BMW M3 in terms of its handling around the track, and that's with sub-par dampers.


It'll be very interesting indeed to see what this car does with Koni Yellows and camber plates.

 

[Boaisy]

Even the Brembo package is terrible at stock height.

 

[Pentalab]

I have the 2014 Track Package. Same as the 2011+ Brembo cars, from what I can tell.

It's substantially different from your 2010 in many respects as regards handling, at least from what I've read.


Mine does that some, but the important thing is that it's not distracting.

Now, it may be that I tend not to notice these things too much from this car because I drive it extremely smoothly, and all of my attention is on where I'm going and what I'm doing. None of my control inputs are ever abrupt unless I do something wrong. That goes for braking as well. It takes about a half second or longer for me to go from initial application to full pedal pressure.


That's why I'm getting camber plates.


I have no interest in lowering the car. Not only would even a 1.5 inch drop result in relatively little improvement in side to side weight transfer (7%), it results in much more body roll (18%), enough so that you would have to nearly double the front spring rate up front, if you were starting with stock (131 lb/in) springs, to counteract the additional roll.

My car is a daily driver and I have steep driveways, speed bumps, etc., to contend with. The front is low enough as it is. I might be willing to lower it by perhaps half an inch, but there would be no real advantage to doing so, and lots of disadvantages.

Honestly, it looks to me like lowering these cars is worthwhile only if you're going for no-compromises track performance. Otherwise, you wind up dealing with all kinds of issues, like pinion angle changes, roll center changes (and the resulting increase in roll that results), anti-squat decreases, etc. You have to put a bunch of additional parts on the car just to get it back to what it was prior to lowering it.

That is why I wanted custom coilovers made: to avoid all of those suspension geometry issues while gaining some of the advantages of going with better dampers and higher spring rates.


Not to me. But then, it may be that my driving style doesn't reveal them.

I've found the stock suspension to grip very well (1.1 to 1.2G) in the corners, to be easily controlled, to be responsive in the transitions (yes, even autocross slaloms), etc. Remember that this thing is right up there with the BMW M3 in terms of its handling around the track, and that's with sub-par dampers.


It'll be very interesting indeed to see what this car does with Koni Yellows and camber plates.

Points well taken. I'm lowered 1.125" in the front..and 1.25" in the rear. It's a DD 1st. I would not lower it any more. The eng is lowered .25" from the new steeda eng mounts. From center hub to top of wheel well arch, it's 15" on the front..and 15.5" rear. Zero problems clearing anything in town, except one restaurant driveway. The ones that are an issue are the driveways that sharply angle upwards, then immediately angle downwards..like an inverted 'V'.

Your proposed better dampers + camber plates would be a big improvement. Lowering is good too, with the provisio that all the supporting mods go along with it.

 

[kcbrown]

Points well taken. I'm lowered 1.125" in the front..and 1.25" in the rear. It's a DD 1st. I would not lower it any more. The eng is lowered .25" from the new steeda eng mounts. From center hub to top of wheel well arch, it's 15" on the front..and 15.5" rear. Zero problems clearing anything in town, except one restaurant driveway. The ones that are an issue are the driveways that sharply angle upwards, then immediately angle downwards..like an inverted 'V'.

And that describes my driveway at home: steep initially, then it flattens out. The problem isn't really with the center of the car clearing the driveway, but with the front splitter clearing it. I already have to go into the driveway at a significant angle just to avoid scraping the splitter.

Your proposed better dampers + camber plates would be a big improvement. Lowering is good too, with the provisio that all the supporting mods go along with it.

If you haven't tried increased spring rates, better dampers, etc., without lowering the car, then how do you really know that lowering the car really is good?

Proper testing means changing one, and only one, variable at a time. Unfortunately, it takes a better driver than me to actually detect anything more than major improvements, since improvement detection requires driving consistency on the order of a couple of tenths of a second per lap on the track.


That's why, while I'm annoyed that I'm "forced" to go with this solution for now, I'm not too bent out of shape about it. Certainly, it is essentially forcing me to change one variable at a time!