What coil-overs should I buy? Poll inside

[turka]

Ok just to clear up some confusion:

1. Car is daily driven the said 80miles a day mostly during non-rainy summer days maybe 3 times a week
   
2. I like adjustability and will NOT go back to a simple spring and strut type setup
   
3. I don't care what the required rebuild mileage is, I believe in the 'do it once, do it right' mentality and will pay to have them rebuilt when needed
   
4. I've had spring rates in the 850lb range before and daily drove the car just fine but definitely felt the need for better dampers - thus this thread. New rates will be no more than 550 lbs
   
5. I intend to - and previously have - tracked the car but had a setup that was less than ideal
   
6. The car will be corner balanced when the new setup goes in
7. I find enjoyment in having insane amounts of mechanical grip in daily driving situations just as much as track days

All that being said, thank you everyone for your input so far

 

[Stephen31201]

Oh gotcha. I kept going back re-reading what I typed trying to figure it out lol. They are shortened. The advice I give is simply just my opinion, and its honest opinions that I wish I had listened to so that I could have saved $$ on things I didn't need. And usually when people try to talk people out of high end upgrades its usually because we have made the same mistake ourselves and we are trying to help people not do the same.

 

[Mark Aubele]

If you want to run 550s you are pretty much going to have to run a higher end damper or have a Koni/Bilstein revalved. Run 550s on yellows and it is less than optimal although it does work.

 

[csamsh]

Ok just to clear up some confusion:

1. Car is daily driven the said 80miles a day mostly during non-rainy summer days maybe 3 times a week
   
2. I like adjustability and will NOT go back to a simple spring and strut type setup
   
3. I don't care what the required rebuild mileage is, I believe in the 'do it once, do it right' mentality and will pay to have them rebuilt when needed
   
4. I've had spring rates in the 850lb range before and daily drove the car just fine but definitely felt the need for better dampers - thus this thread. New rates will be no more than 550 lbs
   
5. I intend to - and previously have - tracked the car but had a setup that was less than ideal
   
6. The car will be corner balanced when the new setup goes in
7. I find enjoyment in having insane amounts of mechanical grip in daily driving situations just as much as track days

All that being said, thank you everyone for your input so far

Knowing this, I recommend the MCS setup more.

 

[Stephen31201]

^^^^ agreed if that's the case! I just need deeper pockets so I can ball like you guys. I forget sometimes that $3,500 to me may be different to someone else. At least if you have the best equipment you never have to wonder if its the car that's lacking. lol.

 

[Norm Peterson]

If you want to run 550s you are pretty much going to have to run a higher end damper or have a Koni/Bilstein revalved. Run 550s on yellows and it is less than optimal although it does work.

It wouldn't surprise me if yellows were intended to only work with readily available "big springs". Up to maybe H&R race (around 300 lb/in IIRC). Hell, on track I run the yellows at +1.25 turns or a bit higher with the OE springs . . .


Given OP's preference for adjustability, MCS. The Cortex struts might provide a little more wheel/tire clearance though.


Norm

 

[Norm Peterson]

I will never understand when people try to talk other out of upgrading their cars. Just because some take 7 years to drive the car at 7/10 on track doesn't mean everyone else is like that. Upgrade away, enjoy the car the way you want to.

It is a perhaps unfortunate consequence of so many other people just throwing parts at their cars in the hopes that magic is shipped in the boxes along with the new hardware. Near as I can tell, this thinking is epidemic-level on Mustang and Camaro forums and probably always has been.

Rarely is anybody as clear about describing experience and expectations as turka was in post #21. It'd make a damn good "where I'm coming from" template.


Norm

 

[csamsh]

That's a great point Norm...and it's not just pony car people either. There's a shocking portion of the corvette community that does the same thing. The lemming effect is possibly worse there.

 

[kcbrown]

It wouldn't surprise me if yellows were intended to only work with readily available "big springs". Up to maybe H&R race (around 300 lb/in IIRC). Hell, on track I run the yellows at +1.25 turns or a bit higher with the OE springs . . .

I think that's exactly right. The front OTS Konis max their ability to critically damp at about 175 lb/in. Max 65% critical damping happens at about 415 lb/in. The rears have a lot more damping capability in them, but that doesn't matter if the fronts are no longer damping the motion properly.

Given OP's preference for adjustability, MCS. The Cortex struts might provide a little more wheel/tire clearance though.

Both the MCS units and the JRI units are single adjustable (presumably in rebound). What about the MCS' adjustability is superior to the JRI?

It'd be interesting to know what the differences are between the JRI units and the MCS ones. I expect both of them are excellent.

 

[Whiskey11]

Minor thread jack, but have you ever compared the Konis GC supplied compared to OTS Konis in length? I have Ground Control's race camber plates (vorshalg was out of stock, I despise these plates) and I suspect the additional bump travel they get is from the plates. I have well over an inch additional bump travel with these compared to MM plates. Only good thing about them. Might have a ton to do with how Konis have stood up to me hillclimbing and street driving the car an entire year with no issues when everyone else seems to blow them out.

The GC valved Koni's are shorter than the stock shocks are. How much so I don't remember, but they are. I didn't have their race C/C plates on my car (required cutting of the strut tower that I couldn't do in the class I was in) but their street camber plates were nice, as was the kit. It may not be the ultimate in handling coilovers, but the performance per dollar invested ratio is really high.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Both the MCS units and the JRI units are single adjustable (presumably in rebound). What about the MCS' adjustability is superior to the JRI?

It's more about the eye to eye mounting costing you damper stroke. Has to at least affect ride height options.


Norm

 

[Mark Aubele]

The GC valved Koni's are shorter than the stock shocks are. How much so I don't remember, but they are. I didn't have their race C/C plates on my car (required cutting of the strut tower that I couldn't do in the class I was in) but their street camber plates were nice, as was the kit. It may not be the ultimate in handling coilovers, but the performance per dollar invested ratio is really high.

They say you have to cut them but I didn't have to. If you want the ability to run about 10* of negative camber you do, but to set the strut tops against the inner part of the hole you don't need to.

 

[Stephen31201]

^^^^ -10*. Holy cow. I thought I was doing good at -3

 

[Mark Aubele]

^^^^ -10*. Holy cow. I thought I was doing good at -3

I was exaggeratting slightly. Just saying you can get "plenty" of camber without cutting.

 

[oldVOR]

I was exaggeratting slightly. Just saying you can get "plenty" of camber without cutting.

Mark likes to run a little bit of camber (no exaggeration)

 

[Lucky_13]

I'm sure the JRI are good stuff. Don't like the eye to eye rear for a mustang- eats up damper stroke. I also do not know what brand of damper the fronts on that setup are, or even if they're monotube....in the interest of not ignorantly slamming someone's product, I'll keep my suspicions on the origin of the internals to myself. Suffice it to say, I would not buy those unless I knew exactly what I was buying.
.

Rear damper stroke I agree is an issue. The cortex is offset slightly lower on the lower bracket, likely to try to gain some of this back.

Honestly, in the S197 world, there are some very knowledgeable shops for performance driving. I'd call up each and see which one feels right to you, as the support they can provide in terms of tuning and experience far outweighs any minor advantage one particular coilover may give over another. CorteX, Vorshlag, Rehagen, Phoenix, and more can all steer you in the right direction.

 

[C7 B8]

JRi and MCS are pretty hardcore race units. The Bilsteins is more street/track day stuff.

I run Ground Control which is Koni/Eibach w/ custom valving and rates (more street/track day stuff). Handles great on the track and surprisingly comfortable on the road. My s197 is for HPDE (so not full blown race) and GC is more than adequate for me. The car also has wattslink, f&r sway bars and relo brackets. Wattslink made a huge difference.

So based on your usage, I'd say save your money and get the Bilsteins. And Vorshlag is awesome and will dial you in right. I found them to be honest and knowledgable so I would recommend calling them up and asking them what they'd recommend based on your use-case.

 

[barbaro]

When it comes to coilovers. There are the JRI's and most everything else is a distant second: From Pro-Touring guru Ron Sutton:

"For track performance, in my experience & testing, the JRI shocks will perform at a higher level than the best Penskes. The three big differences are piston design & light weight, internal shock design allowing lower rod pressure & the dual in-shaft rebound adjusters on the JRI. The JRI shock is much quicker responding, so it keeps the tire contact patch on the ground a higher percentage of time (proven on the 7-post machines by several pro teams). The JRIs operate at a higher frequency (about 25%) than the Penskes.

This is critical to grip. If we laid a tight string over 10' of asphalt on the track ... we would see as many as 10 minor undulations in the asphalt. In the corner ... say at 68 mph ... the car is covering that 10' in 1/10 of a second. So we need the suspension ... and the shock ... to respond 10 times in 1/10 of a second. OMG ... The faster the shock can respond, the better it can keep the tire in contact with the track. JRI's do this about 25% better than Penskes.

The other advice given is excellent. Getting shocks to perform at their optimum ... so the car can ... is very dependent on the valving curves. If we created identical valving in Penskes & JRIs ... the JRIs will provide more grip ... because they respond quicker & keep the tire's contact patch planted. But I find I can get meaner with the JRIs than I can with Penskes ... and maintain contact patch. If you get hardcore about your track performance & run high zero number valving to hold the nose down through the roll through zone, as all pro race teams do, the JRI shock will have better response & keep the tire connected ... even though the valving has the shocked packed. Again, proven on the 7-post many times, making the JRI shock #1 in NASCAR & Road Racing."

The final benefit of the JRI is the dual rebound adjuster in shaft. One tunes the low speed rebound valving (which is your handling zone) and the other tunes the bleed valving which is the route to high zero number valving to hold the front end down in the roll through zone of the corner. The way we do ours (called Track-Star valving) allows up to 800# of zero number ... all the way down to 0#. So you can drive it pretty comfortably on the street and then dial them up "mean" for very impressive cornering grip.

Disclosure: I sell 12 brands of shocks, including: Ridetech, JRI, Penske, Advanced Racing, Ohlin, QA1, Viking, Pro, Integra, Koni, Bilstein & Varishock.

 

[barbaro]

More from Ron:

"JRI is the best racing shock. In my experience JRI racing shocks provide more tire grip than any other shock made. The only two cons are price & that they need to be rebuilt with seals sooner. That’s a minor thing when winning performance is the goal. The Ridetech shocks provide the best grip of what I consider to be street shocks. The level of grip, while greater than any other street shock I have experienced, is not in the same league as JRI race shock grip. One is a race shock & the other is a street shock. Unless something damages the shock, the Ridetechs will not need to be rebuilt with new seals for a long, long time."

"For full racing, hardcore track & autocross competition shocks, I rate the top 8 brands & models as follows:
1. JRI with canister or base valve
2. ARS (3000 series) with canister or base valve
3. Penske (8000 series) with canister or base valve
4. JRI non-base valve design
5. ARS (4000 series) with canister or base valve
6. Penske (8000 series) non-base valve design
7. Penske (7000 series) with base valve
8. Penske (7000 series) non-base valve design

"JRI is ahead of all other race shock manufacturers in the development game of designing shocks to meet all of these stiction/friction/pressure/grip challenges.
F. JRI’s design features thinner, lighter pistons & other shock internals, make for a lighter, more responsive damper.
G. They utilize thinner, harder, low friction piston seals … and micro polished, hard surfaces internally … all lead to less stiction & friction … creating a fast responding shock & more grip.
H. Combine that with an advanced shock design that operates on lower gas pressures … with no cavitation … reduces stiction & friction a ton … creating a faster responding shock & more grip.
I. Add in ultra modern shock fluids that are as thin as water, yet provide super slippery lubrication … further reduces stiction & friction … creating an even faster responding shock & more grip. . . . . . .

"The only downside to the JRI design for street guys is the thinner, low friction seals need to be replaced at some interval. Think of it like race engines that use thinner, moly rings. They seal up quick & seal good … build more power … but wear quicker & require more frequent replacement. It is very inexpensive to freshen a shock with new seals, but will be required after some point to keep your JRI shocks working as they were designed to. I can’t tell you how long that is, because it depends on many “usage” factors. It racing, we never give it a second thought because we freshen the shocks after so many races regardless. JRI’s shock seals don’t wear any quicker than other race shocks. It is simply the nature of racing shocks."

 

[barbaro]

Rear damper stroke I agree is an issue. The cortex is offset slightly lower on the lower bracket, likely to try to gain some of this back.

CSAMH insinuates that Cortex is putting secret internals in their JRI Struts and then you both "agree" that rear damper stroke is an "issue?" I have had Cortex's rear jri dampers and I have not noticed this issue. Is this "issue" philosophical or is it based on any experience with the damper?