Wheel Hop, and Dampers

kcbrown

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I've been back and forth about my whole plan since starting this thread. The money to get into even Koni Yellows would pay for 2-3 track days, and a part of me is nagging that I should go do that. But that will cut my mod budget down to non-adjustable dampers only - I guess Koni STR.Ts being the 'top' choice in that group.

Nothing saying I couldn't track it on the stock suspension either; the Brembo cars are slightly stiffer than the base car afterall.

My first several track events were on the stock suspension. There is value in seeing what the car is capable of in stock form before making any changes.

If the choice is between mods and track events, and you haven't driven your car on the track yet and have a lot of interest in doing so, then go with the track events. There is no substitute for driving experience -- the driver mod is by far the most potent one. There is enough to learn at the beginning that you can do so with pretty much any car. Modifications are not required in the beginning.

Hopefully, doing the track events will only delay the point at which you can change dampers. I also would go with nothing less than Koni Sports.

You might be surprised at how well the stock dampers work on the track. It'll probably depend greatly on the nature of the track. I've had my stock dampers dynoed and they do seem to be well matched to the spring rates at lower shaft speeds (the speeds that govern handling). The main problem with them is that they're underdamped at high shaft speeds, which is why you feel reverberations when going over sharp small bumps.

To be sure, the Koni Sport dampers will be an improvement on the track, but with stock springs, my experience is that the improvement is not the major one that one might expect. It takes some experience to really see the differences. Oddly enough, the smoother you are with the controls, the less you'll notice the limitations of the suspension (save for, e.g., understeer, which isn't primarily controlled by dampers).

If you haven't tracked your car before, then the stock setup is just fine -- just make sure you replace the brake fluid with good, high temp fluid (I like Castrol SRF myself), and make sure your pads have plenty left on them.
 

Sky Render

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An SCCA Track Night like I linked you to would be a GREAT first experience on a track. And it's only $150 for an hour of track time!
 

Senna1

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An SCCA Track Night like I linked you to would be a GREAT first experience on a track. And it's only $150 for an hour of track time!

Yeah, Dominion in VA is about 2 hours closer to me, which is a lot easier to pull of during the week (day trip rather than overnight), so I might head there first. They have a couple dates through August for Track Nights. Summit has dates for FATT all the way through November it looks like, so I might have a couple chances this year before it gets too cold in the Mid-Atlantic.
 

Lucky_13

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+1 for SCCA Track Nights, great entry level events and well worth taking a day off or half a day if you need to. The few I've been to have had far less attendance than a weekend HPDE, and way more open track time. Plus, unless you're really topped off energy wise a full day at the track can be exhausting.

Edit: Time on track is about the same, but way more clean air*
 

modernbeat

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Hi,

New-ish member here, with a '13 Brembo GT starting off all stock. -snip- I have a couple concerns now that the car isn't brand new anymore:

1.) Wheel hop...Are LCAs likely to help reduce the axle tramp?

2.) Damping...Is there any opinion on some of the other strut/shock combos out there like Steeda Pro Action and Eibach Pro Dampers?...

Again, the goal is just to fix a couple foibles with the car as my fun daily driver. I may eventually get to a track day/HPDE or the occasional autoX, but I'm not building towards that end, or concerned about class rules (famous last words...).


Going all the way back to the original questions. You should fix the axle hop with the geometry and try to avoid fixing it with the dampers (shocks). While you may be able to set up a damper to stop the axle hop, everything you do with the damper to fix the hop will hamper it's ability to do it's performance related job of keeping pressure on the tire during cornering.

Since you haven't done much to the car yet, and you intend to keep it a daily driver, AND some of the proposed solutions should really only be used on hardcore track cars, I'll give you my proposal.

Install rear relocation brackets first. Get some that will work with the stock arms. Try that.

If that doesn't work well enough, then add lower arms. You mentioned the Whiteline arms having poly bushings. While they were never actually poly, they did restrict movement like poly. But about a year ago they started making their lower arms with their high articulation MAX-C Bushings. We've seen them use these same bushings on some private label parts and were impressed. This is the right bushing for that location in a daily driver.

Everything else aside, I'd put a set of Bilsteins on it for daily use. Either the stock height ones for use with stock springs, or the shortened versions for use with some lowering springs. This won't fix the axle hop, but will improve the ride and performance of the dampers.

The things I'd avoid since this is a daily driver - putting any spherical or Delrin joints in the rear suspension. They transfer too much noise and vibration to the tub. I'd avoid cheap adjustable shocks. To hit their price point and include a lot of features, they end up taking shortcuts with the materials, finishes, coatings and engineering and end up worn out in a short time. I'd skip doing the upper link. We tried a lot of versions, and many have very good performance benefits, but they also have downsides for a daily. Once you are on motorsports oriented dampers and spring rates, then I'd address the upper link.
 

kcbrown

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Everything else aside, I'd put a set of Bilsteins on it for daily use. Either the stock height ones for use with stock springs, or the shortened versions for use with some lowering springs. This won't fix the axle hop, but will improve the ride and performance of the dampers.

Are the damping curves on the Bilsteins the same between the stock height ones and the shortened ones? If so, the damping seems like it would be a bit much for stock spring rates. If they're lower on the stock height ones then they might well be an excellent choice, and I'd love to see the damping curves for them in that case.
 

Senna1

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Jason, thanks for the input - I've spend hours now working through your guy's S197 build thread that Terry keeps, and I'm still not through it all yet. I see very few businesses sharing so much info freely on forums.

Relo brackets on an OE ride height car... I wouldn't have thought of that. Is that something you are recommending/doing commonly?
 

modernbeat

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Are the damping curves on the Bilsteins the same between the stock height ones and the shortened ones?...

They have different curves. The long version is still a little stiff for a stock spring. But tolerable. The short version is stiffer and can take quite a bit of spring rate.

On edit: there are three different long versions, and from memory, two of those are the same and one was stiffer than the others. The short one was even stiffer.

...Relo brackets on an OE ride height car... I wouldn't have thought of that. Is that something you are recommending/doing commonly?

Yes, unfortunately. The car can use them at stock height, and any lowering at all just about requires them. Even a 1" lowering.
 
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Sky Render

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So basically, the control arms on a stock car are approximately parallel to the ground. When you lower the car, the arms slope up towards the rear axle. In that case, you can use control arm relocation brackets to "correct" the angle back to make the arms parallel to the ground.

However, making the arms slope down towards the axle increases anti-squat and modifies the roll steer characteristics. My point is that even on a stock ride height car, you can use relocation brackets to get more anti squat.

Here's a discussion of roll steer:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...ptimizing-Weight-Transfer-and-Roll-Steer.aspx
 

stepqhen

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Yeah, Dominion in VA is about 2 hours closer to me, which is a lot easier to pull of during the week (day trip rather than overnight), so I might head there first. They have a couple dates through August for Track Nights. Summit has dates for FATT all the way through November it looks like, so I might have a couple chances this year before it gets too cold in the Mid-Atlantic.

Don't hold your breath on the Dominion dates, they have a list of items from the safety inspection that still need to be corrected. I was going to go to the one in June, ended up driving 4 hours to New Jersey when they had to cancel (BTW I really liked NJMP and am not sorry I went in the slightest). I was told by one of the guys who did the inspection of Dominion while I was at TNIA in NJ not to hold my breath for TNIA events at Dominion, as the list of needed fixes was long and expensive

Only down side on the TNIA for a total newcomer is there is not in car instruction. FATT at Summit does have in car instruction, plus skid pad time, which I thought was fun, and 4 20 minute on track sessions. But they book full quickly.

SCCA also has HPDEs at Summit Point as well.

I was bummed about Dominion, as they are only 1:45 from me and it looks like a fun track, but I guess digging drainage basins next to the track and not installing walls or rails to stop cars from going swimming is consider bad safety stuff. (at least from what I hear)
 

Senna1

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Oh. That's good to know, thanks for the heads up. Maybe need to re-think my plans then. Funny there's no mention of possible problems on the website when you go to sign up... I do like the idea of in-car instruction and skidpad time at the Summit Point FATT event; plus I have a buddy going up there in Sept with his NSX.

The roads going from Western MD up to WV aren't too bad either...

On the LCA issue, I made a point to go check my car at resting ride height. Sure enough, the arms are barely parallel to the ground as it is (OE Brembo/TP ride height). Looks like I will be looking into some mild relo brackets, and arms if I need them in the near future.
 

Sky Render

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Got an airport autocross coming up in Cumberland, MD on 23-24 July if you're interested in getting some cheap seat time. Frederick autocross next weekend, too (16-17 July); small parking lot--good for beginners.
 

Senna1

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Yeah, I did see those events in one of the links you posted up. It's been hard to get out alone for a whole day on the weekend since my son was born last year - which has meant no AutoX for the last two summers. Hopefully can start easing back into them next season.
 
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Senna1

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Don't hold your breath on the Dominion dates, they have a list of items from the safety inspection that still need to be corrected. I was going to go to the one in June, ended up driving 4 hours to New Jersey when they had to cancel (BTW I really liked NJMP and am not sorry I went in the slightest). I was told by one of the guys who did the inspection of Dominion while I was at TNIA in NJ not to hold my breath for TNIA events at Dominion, as the list of needed fixes was long and expensive.

For anyone else interested, I can confirm (via an SCCA National official) that TNIA has now cancelled all planned 2016 dates at Dominion, and has no plans to run there for 'the foreseeable future'.

Really a shame, as this is literally a brand new road course, and the closest one to DC. In-car video from another (NASA?) HPDE probably shows why though. Whole lotta concrete walls very close to track edge; not much runoff in high-speed areas:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN3XypLXoe4

So, back to looking at Summit Point FATT, or TNiA @ NJMP or PittRace for me.
 

Sky Render

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Wow. So you're saying that SCCA has said they're not going to run at Dominion indefinitely due to unsafe conditions?
 

TGR96

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Yeah, I can see why! Watching that video...there's no way I'd run there in it's current state. Little to no run off area, concrete walls right off the pavemant. Man, if you lost if there, you could bend you car up big time!

That is a shame. Looks like a really fun track.
 

Sky Render

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Just watched the video... Good grief; why do they have Jersey barriers at the EDGE OF THE FREAKING TRACK?!
 

Boaisy

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Cause it's Jersey.

Now that I see the thumbnail, even the "rumble strip" would make the car jump off if it were to run off on that. It is straight up concrete molding that you would see near sidewalks.
 

Norm Peterson

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Just watched the video... Good grief; why do they have Jersey barriers at the EDGE OF THE FREAKING TRACK?!
Maybe because launching over the edge and a good distance down would be an even worse situation?

Agreed, it's definitely not a place for newbies to high performance driving with little or no instruction under their belt. Not in its semi-complete state anyway.


Norm
 
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