Wheel Spacer Question

[Rusnak_322]

OK, I have done a lot of research and even sent an email to American Muscle, but they couldn’t answer my question.

I am looking at the wheel spacers for my lowered 2013 GT with the factory 18x8 rims. Purely cosmetic mod. I am sold that wheel spacers are safe, so I am not looking for advise on that and I do not want to buy new wheels with the proper offset anytime soon.

On the AM web site - and the cheap 1” spacers ($70) say "Note: will not fit stock factory wheels " while the expensive Eibach ones ($150) say they work with stock wheels. The pics look exactly the same? What am I missing?

Then you have the mid level billet spacers ($120) that are 1.5" wide that don't look the same but are also said to be "Hubcentric" and fit stock wheels. The pics look like the center hole is a too large to be hubcentric and they don’t have the lip that the others have.

AM customer service recommended I buy both and return one. I would rather just buy what I need and not have to pay for return freight.

Thanks for your help.

 

[SlowJim]

Unless you have extended wheel studs, you can't use anything bigger than 5mm. Even that is pushing it. As far as I know the only quality, hubcentric spacers in that size are H&R.

 

[Rusnak_322]

No need for extended studs.

http://www.americanmuscle.com/15in-billet-wheelspacers.html

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

They are needed unless the wheels have cavities in the back them to all the protruding stock studs to rest in there. Otherwise youll need either to cut your stock studs to length or use studs provided with some kits.

 

[Rusnak_322]

Understood, but how can one set that is 25mm thick work with stock rims and the other that are 1" thick NOT work?
They are just about the same thickness and they dont change the fact that my stock rims don't have recesses or the lenght of the stock studs in my hubs.
Again, the AM customer service people don't know either. All that I can think of is that the Eibach's come with instructions to trim the stock studs where as the cheap ones don't.

 

[o2sys]

That's probably it then...

 

[csamsh]

Again, the AM customer service people don't know either.

If that's the case, I would pick a different vendor. If they don't know before you've bought it, they sure as hell won't know after you've bought it.

 

[Norm Peterson]

OK, I have done a lot of research and even sent an email to American Muscle, but they couldn’t answer my question.

I am looking at the wheel spacers for my lowered 2013 GT with the factory 18x8 rims. Purely cosmetic mod. I am sold that wheel spacers are safe, so I am not looking for advise on that and I do not want to buy new wheels with the proper offset anytime soon.

On the AM web site - and the cheap 1” spacers ($70) say "Note: will not fit stock factory wheels " while the expensive Eibach ones ($150) say they work with stock wheels. The pics look exactly the same? What am I missing?

Then you have the mid level billet spacers ($120) that are 1.5" wide that don't look the same but are also said to be "Hubcentric" and fit stock wheels. The pics look like the center hole is a too large to be hubcentric and they don’t have the lip that the others have.

AM customer service recommended I buy both and return one. I would rather just buy what I need and not have to pay for return freight.

So . . . you're not interested in the advice you've seen elsewhere on this topic, you don't trust what you've seen in pictures, and you don't want to take what may be the only sensible recommendation (to try more than one of these things and return the rest) either. But you want people who wouldn't do this mod themselves to not only back your approach but help you do whatever it is you're trying for as cheaply as possible?

Nothing in what you've posted suggests that you're going to listen to anybody's advice here either, never mind that top-shelf technical advice for cheaping out and doing a second-rate kind of job probably doesn't exist.


Norm

 

[Roush fun]

I just bought hubcentric front spacers, they are made by motorsport tech. Ordered 12mm spacer as well as ARP longer wheel studs. In all it cost me 245 but well worth the money doing it the right way. Hubcentric ensures your wheel is centered and makes wheel install much easier.

 

[o2sys]

Yea at least get them hubcentric for sure. Tightening down the wheels is no fun for sure when is not hub centric.

 

[Rusnak_322]

So . . . you're not interested in the advice you've seen elsewhere on this topic, you don't trust what you've seen in pictures, and you don't want to take what may be the only sensible recommendation (to try more than one of these things and return the rest) either. But you want people who wouldn't do this mod themselves to not only back your approach but help you do whatever it is you're trying for as cheaply as possible?

Nothing in what you've posted suggests that you're going to listen to anybody's advice here either, never mind that top-shelf technical advice for cheaping out and doing a second-rate kind of job probably doesn't exist.


Norm

What advice on this topic am I missing? I did tons of research and there is as many people who don't think that they are a good idea as there are that think that they are fine to use. I choose to believe that they are safe due to the fact that they are legal and used in pro racing, that they are legal to use in places like Germany that is extremely strict with approving aftermarket products and the fact that most of the people who don’t recommend them had zero first hand knowledge and didn’t realize that the spacers used a second set of studs. There were also lots who thought that the wheel was held up by the wheels studs and that these would cause the studs to bend or that they would cause more wear on the axel and wheel bearings and recommended that I just get “proper” offset rims, which would place the same extra stresses on the same components.

I don’t trust what I see in the pictures because they make no sense, there are two products shown that look exactly the same, one is more expensive than the other and the cheap one won’t work while the expensive one will. I also bet that they are stock pictures and not of the actual product that I am buying.


The “only sensible recommendation (to try more than one of these things and return the rest)” is going to cost me time and money. The best case scenario was someone on a forum having experience with these items giving me actual first hand feedback, saving me a trip to UPS and probably $20 in return postage. That is exactly what these forums are for.

BTW: I bought three sets yesterday. I got the $70 cheap ones, the $150 expensive ones and for the hell of it, the $120 1 ½” thick ones to see if they fit. I measured and it looked like they would, but it would be close. I will take some pics during the install and post them to help the next person with the same questions.

 

[o2sys]

People think you will be putting additional stress on the hub by adding a spacer, but it actually is the same about of stress by doing an aggressive wheel offset IMO. One is not greater than the other.

And like you said it's used in motor sports and legal in countries where road inspections are super strict.

 

[Norm Peterson]

The concern is that you now have a set of lugs/studs that are not readily accessible, and which can and will lose torque over time just like "regular" lug nuts do. While the hub-centric mounting will keep the spacer parallel to the hub (taking tensile and bending loading due to radial forces off the lugs), it won't prohibit relative rotation that also tries to bend the lugs (from forces tangential to the bolt pattern such as you get during braking, acceleration, and wheel hop events).

TUV acceptability can't possibly cover for widely varying levels of owner maintenance. While it is reasonable to expect race cars and cars used at such seriously high levels of performance as autocross or HPDE/track time, it isn't likely that the average car owner who is mainly interested in an inexpensive solution for an appearance or clearance matter will think this way. He wants nothing more than to bolt it up and call it done.


FWIW, I've had wheel lugs loosen during a single 50 second autocross, and for strut clearance I do need a very thin spacer (0.025" or 0.6mm) under the right front 18x11's (see sig), so I am drawing more on practical experience here than on structural theory.


Norm

 

[Pentalab]

I saw a post a while back where a fellow took his car in for service....and the tech told the owner that all 20 lugs were loose. Tech said... 'you have spacer's, correct' ?
The fellow admitted he indeed had used thin aluminum spacers. I can see lug nuts loosening up with al spacers, al is too soft. Dunno why SS is not used, or anything that is harder than al.

Norm's concerns are valid. You won't have ready access to the inner oem studs + nuts..if the proposed spacer's shown in posting #3 are used. Those types usually come in 25mm + 30mm thick...with the 2nd set of studs.

If instead thin spacers are used.. like the .125" types..or <.125".... the oem studs will be fine. Go any thicker...and you don't have enough thread left.Then u require longer studs.

 

[Rusnak_322]

Think about this like an engineer, why would aluminum spacers be any softer then aluminum wheels?
Why would a spacer loosen the lugs any more than a wheel lug? How often do your wheel lugs come loose?
With the spacers, you can use blue lock tight as you are not removing them like you would a wheel lug.

 

[Rusnak_322]

Again, I am not an engineer, but this is a simple joint. The wheels on all cars are held on by friction. The friction between the inside of the wheel and the hub or brake rotor. The car is actually held up by this friction, not by the studs or the little bit of hub sticking out.

The spacer, either a slip on or bolt on dosen't change that. They just add a piece in the middle. A slip on spacer is no less safe then the rotor between the hub and the wheel. The way the rotor is on our cars is exactly the same as a slip on spacer as it adds an extra piece between the hub and wheel that has friction surfaces on both sides.

The bolt on spacer has more components, but properly installed and torqued, there should be no reason for them to loosen during use anymore then the wheel lugs.

As far as using a harder material, the spacers only have to withstand the compression force of the lug nuts (under 100 ft lbs). You can get a high end two piece rotor with an aluminum hat that is the same as having a aluminum spacer.

 

[o2sys]

Lug nuts coming loose people are either not torquing them correctly and/or they don't have enough thread engagement to begin with.

 

[Pentalab]

Think about this like an engineer, why would aluminum spacers be any softer then aluminum wheels?
Why would a spacer loosen the lugs any more than a wheel lug? How often do your wheel lugs come loose?
With the spacers, you can use blue lock tight as you are not removing them like you would a wheel lug.

Al wheels are a lot thicker vs thin al spacers. You won't find Al flat washers used in the construction industry... but that's a different application. Construction washers come in 2 variety's, normal and heavy duty. The heavy duty types have a slightly smaller OD, and a slightly smaller ID..and are also slightly thicker, and harder.

If the al spacers were thick enough, it's probably not an issue...but then you require longer studs. Remember the fiasco with the use of Al house electrical wire back in the 70's + 80's in homes. Doesn't matter how tight you cranked down on the screws, they always worked loose.

For the hubcentric 25+30mm spacer's, blue loctite would do the trick. Purple loctite might also work. Purple loctite is a little weaker than the blue stuff.

I just noticed on those 25+30mm spacers, it sez... 'rear only'.

Bottom line would be to check the tq on the lug nuts at least 2-4 times per year with a tq wrench. The fellow with the 20 loosened nuts had originally tweaked em all to 100 ft lbs. Dunno why else the tq had dropped down to 20-35 ft lbs on all of em, but the tire guy had seen it many times before, and the use of al spacers in the 1/8" to 5/16" range was the only common denominator.

On a similar note, I always use never seize goop on the studs ( made by loctite and others.). Then tq em all to 90 ft lbs. If lube is used on the threads, you don't require any where as much tq as un-lubed. If you look at industry tq specs on various bolt sizes, they always provide two sets of tq values, lubed and un-lubed. The lubed spec is always way down, typ 60-70% of the un-lubed spec. The theory from industry is... you are after XXX amount of tightness, not tq per se. I apply it just to make getting nuts off a little easier, since I swap wheels every 6 months.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Think about this like an engineer, why would aluminum spacers be any softer then aluminum wheels?

Different alloy? Thinner section behind the spacer's lug nuts?

Why would a spacer loosen the lugs any more than a wheel lug? How often do your wheel lugs come loose?

Often enough at autocross that I'd have to check them after both of the first two runs . . . this after checking them right after putting the competition set of wheels and tires on for the day. By the time I sold that car, I had to replace all 20 just so they'd stay tight in street duty. My guess is some combination of heat cycling, loading, torque cycling, and gradual thread wear is responsible.

With the spacers, you can use blue lock tight as you are not removing them like you would a wheel lug.

That did cross my mind, until I remembered how hot brakes can get.


Norm
(retired engineer)

 

[Rusnak_322]

Well if you are mounting wheels, you should always check the lugs after a few miles on the street. If you mount them and then head out to the track, then sure you will see some loosen. If they continue to loosen, the check or replace the lugs and studs.

Since this a mostly a daily driver & cruiser, I don’t plan to swap wheels often. I also don’t plan to heat the rear brakes to the point that they will cause lock tight on the studs to fail. That said, I plan to do my second autocross in the Mustang at the end of the month. My wife is going to take her Miata, so I am going to have to push hard enough to not lose to her. We are both going to use the stock wheels and OEM tires. This is for fun, not FTD.

Again, I will check all the lugs after a few drives and then regularly after that. I don’t normaly breakout the torque wrench for lugs, but I will from now on. I bought this convertible to cruise around with my young kids, so I am not going to knowingly be unsafe.

Speaking of which, I did find this that makes me more at ease with these spacers – Porsche has been using spacers since at least the 1970’s. they currently sell both 5mm slip on as well as 17mm bolt on. Of course they are priced like a Porsche part – almost $300 a set.

http://www.ecstuning.com/ES1443568/?gclid=CLfrwLmGlcYCFdgVgQodfpgA5g

OEM Porsche 17mm wheel spacer set

This genuine Porsche set includes two 17mm thick wheel spacers with pressed-in studs and 10 nuts for attaching your wheels to the spacers.



Also Wilwood brakes sell this funky spacer for drag racing and prostreet cars:


Wilwood’s unique 2” offset aluminum Wide 5 Wheel Spacer utilizes a radical triangulated design to achieve maximum strength and rigidity. This race proven wheel spacer is lighter than any other on the market. Available with coarse 5/8” studs

and lastly - I found this, which better explains what I was thinking happened when the wheel was bolted to the car with our without a spacer.

Mustang Wheel Spacer Tech - http://www.maximummotorsports.com/tech_wheels_spacers.aspx

I appreciate every ones input. I want to make an informed decision and by constantly questioning and having to defend my position I feel that these spacers will be safe and understand that they may require some extra preventive maintenance.