NOT Another...Yes...another auotx build thread
- Thread starter csamsh
- Start date
Alright so...sorry no new pictures, but I have an "initial review" of the BMR spherical UCA and Steeda axle-side spherical bearing.
You've already seen the UCA:
And I bought this thing too after consultation with a couple folks:
The Good:
-I had been having some crazy rear axle hop when braking HARD, like "set-a-fast-time-don't-brake-until-you-see-God" braking, or really any stopping in autocross on race tires. This was worse in downhill braking zones, and worse the bigger/stickier the tires got. Now, I haven't done any "track style" 100+mph braking experiments yet, but, try as I might, I can no longer get the rear axle to hop around under braking, so that's cool.
-Acceleration is a lot more controlled. With the stock UCA, it felt like there was a garage-door spring wrapped around each axle tube connected to the chassis, like the rear suspension had to "load up" in order to go, especially between shifts. The poly LCA's helped this somewhat, but with the spherical UCA, it's cured pretty completely, so that's cool. VERY stable shifting, I can shift as fast as I want with just a tiny lift and the rear just stays planted.
-The "wind up like a rubber band and snap" thing is not present. I had previously run Brand X's poly-bushed UCA, and, when the car was laterally loaded up, say, in a sweeping turn, and then unloaded on corner-exit, especially if any power-on oversteer was induced, the rear would be really "snappy" and sudden in its unloading activities. It was so bad (especially in autox) that I re-installed the stock arm. I *may or may not* have hooned it up some on a couple OKC on ramps testing this behavior with the new arm...and the bind seems to be gone, so that's cool. It would probably be even better with some 302S LCA's...
The Bad:
-Holy shit is this combo loud. With two sphericals in the UCA, well, pretty much every noise made by the drivetrain gets piped right into the cabin. You can hear the diff working in turns, you can hear it unload when you coast, you can hear the axles turning away, gears meshing, lots of tire roar...etc etc etc. There isn't any "clunking" or any other sign of slop in the parts, just lots, and lots, of noise. I would think it wouldn't be nearly as bad if the stock axle-side rubber bushing was retained, but...go big or go home? Do NOT put the double-spherical setup on your daily-driven 'stang.
Between these bearings, the MGW shifter mount, and the Whiteline bushing insert...well I might as well do some of those nearly-solid motor mounts just to give myself complete chassis-noise, right?
The Ugly:
-So...installing that Steeda bearing in the diff housing was...interesting. I took one look at it and said "fuck it" wrt doing the install in my garage with jackstands. I already didn't have the proper tools to get the correct amount of torque on the UCA bolts, and was getting that professionally installed, so I gave the bearing to Vorshlag for them to put on the car as well.
-You need to have some clever way to get the stock bushing out.
-You need to have some clever way to tighten the retaining ring on the Steeda bearing. It's a 58mm hex ring...so you probably don't have that socket. With the axle on the car, there's no room to swing a big wrench to tighten it, and the bearing is too close to the pumpkin for a socket to fit over the ring. I think the guys @Vorshlag ended up putting a 58mm socket on a lathe and machining it down until the walls were thin enough to go on the damn thing, so...yeah. Glad I didn't do that in my garage.
-All totalled, plan on ~$1000 to get this setup on your car, or plan on $600 and a royal PITA self-install, and hope you have a lift and metalworking capabilities.
Other updates:
I also finally got my passenger seat done (Cobra Monaco) so there will be pictures of that up soon.
Next action: Sunday, autocross in Tulsa. Rain in forecast. I may be able to finally put a "Rivals in the wet" review on the internet for the (seemingly) large number of people interested in that. There are dozens of us. DOZENS. I'll also get to try out my aim solo, so that's cool.
My XP16's are worn out, and I ordered XP24's as replacements. Hopefully they're in in time for a track day @Hallet later this month.
You've already seen the UCA:
And I bought this thing too after consultation with a couple folks:
The Good:
-I had been having some crazy rear axle hop when braking HARD, like "set-a-fast-time-don't-brake-until-you-see-God" braking, or really any stopping in autocross on race tires. This was worse in downhill braking zones, and worse the bigger/stickier the tires got. Now, I haven't done any "track style" 100+mph braking experiments yet, but, try as I might, I can no longer get the rear axle to hop around under braking, so that's cool.
-Acceleration is a lot more controlled. With the stock UCA, it felt like there was a garage-door spring wrapped around each axle tube connected to the chassis, like the rear suspension had to "load up" in order to go, especially between shifts. The poly LCA's helped this somewhat, but with the spherical UCA, it's cured pretty completely, so that's cool. VERY stable shifting, I can shift as fast as I want with just a tiny lift and the rear just stays planted.
-The "wind up like a rubber band and snap" thing is not present. I had previously run Brand X's poly-bushed UCA, and, when the car was laterally loaded up, say, in a sweeping turn, and then unloaded on corner-exit, especially if any power-on oversteer was induced, the rear would be really "snappy" and sudden in its unloading activities. It was so bad (especially in autox) that I re-installed the stock arm. I *may or may not* have hooned it up some on a couple OKC on ramps testing this behavior with the new arm...and the bind seems to be gone, so that's cool. It would probably be even better with some 302S LCA's...
The Bad:
-Holy shit is this combo loud. With two sphericals in the UCA, well, pretty much every noise made by the drivetrain gets piped right into the cabin. You can hear the diff working in turns, you can hear it unload when you coast, you can hear the axles turning away, gears meshing, lots of tire roar...etc etc etc. There isn't any "clunking" or any other sign of slop in the parts, just lots, and lots, of noise. I would think it wouldn't be nearly as bad if the stock axle-side rubber bushing was retained, but...go big or go home? Do NOT put the double-spherical setup on your daily-driven 'stang.
Between these bearings, the MGW shifter mount, and the Whiteline bushing insert...well I might as well do some of those nearly-solid motor mounts just to give myself complete chassis-noise, right?The Ugly:
-So...installing that Steeda bearing in the diff housing was...interesting. I took one look at it and said "fuck it" wrt doing the install in my garage with jackstands. I already didn't have the proper tools to get the correct amount of torque on the UCA bolts, and was getting that professionally installed, so I gave the bearing to Vorshlag for them to put on the car as well.
-You need to have some clever way to get the stock bushing out.
-You need to have some clever way to tighten the retaining ring on the Steeda bearing. It's a 58mm hex ring...so you probably don't have that socket. With the axle on the car, there's no room to swing a big wrench to tighten it, and the bearing is too close to the pumpkin for a socket to fit over the ring. I think the guys @Vorshlag ended up putting a 58mm socket on a lathe and machining it down until the walls were thin enough to go on the damn thing, so...yeah. Glad I didn't do that in my garage.
-All totalled, plan on ~$1000 to get this setup on your car, or plan on $600 and a royal PITA self-install, and hope you have a lift and metalworking capabilities.
Other updates:
I also finally got my passenger seat done (Cobra Monaco) so there will be pictures of that up soon.
Next action: Sunday, autocross in Tulsa. Rain in forecast. I may be able to finally put a "Rivals in the wet" review on the internet for the (seemingly) large number of people interested in that. There are dozens of us. DOZENS. I'll also get to try out my aim solo, so that's cool.
My XP16's are worn out, and I ordered XP24's as replacements. Hopefully they're in in time for a track day @Hallet later this month.
Last edited:
Jucostud
booooost'd
Very nice. I'm still waiting for all my parts to come in. Only thing I've got so far is the white line bushing. That's a lot better than stock.
sheizasosay
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Alright so...sorry no new pictures, but I have an "initial review" of the BMR spherical UCA and Steeda axle-side spherical bearing.
You've already seen the UCA:
And I bought this thing too after consultation with a couple folks:
The Good:
-I had been having some crazy rear axle hop when braking HARD, like "set-a-fast-time-don't-brake-until-you-see-God" braking, or really any stopping in autocross on race tires. This was worse in downhill braking zones, and worse the bigger/stickier the tires got. Now, I haven't done any "track style" 100+mph braking experiments yet, but, try as I might, I can no longer get the rear axle to hop around under braking, so that's cool.
-Acceleration is a lot more controlled. With the stock UCA, it felt like there was a garage-door spring wrapped around each axle tube connected to the chassis, like the rear suspension had to "load up" in order to go, especially between shifts. The poly LCA's helped this somewhat, but with the spherical UCA, it's cured pretty completely, so that's cool. VERY stable shifting, I can shift as fast as I want with just a tiny lift and the rear just stays planted.
-The "wind up like a rubber band and snap" thing is not present. I had previously run Brand X's poly-bushed UCA, and, when the car was laterally loaded up, say, in a sweeping turn, and then unloaded on corner-exit, especially if any power-on oversteer was induced, the rear would be really "snappy" and sudden in its unloading activities. It was so bad (especially in autox) that I re-installed the stock arm. I *may or may not* have hooned it up some on a couple OKC on ramps testing this behavior with the new arm...and the bind seems to be gone, so that's cool. It would probably be even better with some 302S LCA's...
The Bad:
-Holy shit is this combo loud. With two sphericals in the UCA, well, pretty much every noise made by the drivetrain gets piped right into the cabin. You can hear the diff working in turns, you can hear it unload when you coast, you can hear the axles turning away, gears meshing, lots of tire roar...etc etc etc. There isn't any "clunking" or any other sign of slop in the parts, just lots, and lots, of noise. I would think it wouldn't be nearly as bad if the stock axle-side rubber bushing was retained, but...go big or go home? Do NOT put the double-spherical setup on your daily-driven 'stang.
The Ugly:
-So...installing that Steeda bearing in the diff housing was...interesting. I took one look at it and said "fuck it" wrt doing the install in my garage with jackstands. I already didn't have the proper tools to get the correct amount of torque on the UCA bolts, and was getting that professionally installed, so I gave the bearing to Vorshlag for them to put on the car as well.
-You need to have some clever way to get the stock bushing out.
-You need to have some clever way to tighten the retaining ring on the Steeda bearing. It's a 58mm hex ring...so you probably don't have that socket. With the axle on the car, there's no room to swing a big wrench to tighten it, and the bearing is too close to the pumpkin for a socket to fit over the ring. I think the guys @Vorshlag ended up putting a 58mm socket on a lathe and machining it down until the walls were thin enough to go on the damn thing, so...yeah. Glad I didn't do that in my garage.
-All totalled, plan on ~$1000 to get this setup on your car, or plan on $600 and a royal PITA self-install, and hope you have a lift and metalworking capabilities.
Other updates:
I also finally got my passenger seat done (Cobra Monaco) so there will be pictures of that up soon.
Next action: Sunday, autocross in Tulsa. Rain in forecast. I may be able to finally put a "Rivals in the wet" review on the internet for the (seemingly) large number of people interested in that. There are dozens of us. DOZENS. I'll also get to try out my aim solo, so that's cool.
My XP16's are worn out, and I ordered XP24's as replacements. Hopefully they're in in time for a track day @Hallet later this month.
I hear you on the tools. Always an added cost. If you do a lot of work and adjusting, the sooner the better as you can beat the installer cost to tool cost ratio. Not that it matters after the fact, but for future reference, Autozone doesn't just loan out spring pullers. They have decent torque wrenches too. I had to get a loaner when I put the new 166ft/lb bolts on my struts as my, most excellent, torque wrench only went to 150. Perfect for every suspension piece until those new bolts.
Don't you wish it was this easy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ70xIVFanY
If this guy roped calves at a rodeo, the little calf would have blinked and woke up tied in knots.
neema
Member
How did you like your xp16s? I have XP12/10s and they're great so far. I wouldn't mind trying 16/20/24s but I don't know why I'd change what I have (I won't be on slicks).
Also, it's good to hear that the harmonic axle damper thingies helped cut some noise transmitted into the cabin. Makes you wonder if a bigger/rubberier one would work better
The 16's were fine. Lots of dust...but...race pads. They lasted 5 days and are now gone. Mind you, three of these days were at Eagle's Canyon, which is a pretty brake-intensive track, and I ran probably 7 hours there. It's been recommended that I try the 24's, so they're on order now.
neema
Member
I consider 5 days of hard track driving pretty good. If the 24s do better, that's impressive. Do you change to a different pad when you drive the car on the street?
SO I haven't done anything too big of a deal for a while, other than get the Cobra passenger seat as well.
Did my first track day at Hallett Motor Racing Circuit, which is probably now my favorite track. To me, it's tougher than MSR Cresson, Eagles Canyon, or NOLA, the other tracks I've done in this car. Very technical, not very fast, but a hoot, and also a brand new surface. I've got lots of video but the audio is messed up, so I'm not going to edit anything. My best lap was a 1:33.XX going clockwise, which probably means nothing, as it was a BRAND NEW, like literally the first time anyone had driven on it, asphalt surface, and traffic was TERRIBLE. That lap came at the end of a session on lap 9 or 10, rear tires were overheated like crazy, and I was steering the wrong way around most corners. I really wish the video was good, but my gopro mount loosened during that session and I filmed my headliner. :/
Next project: This is the mockup. The final will be 1/2" marine grade plywood. Incidentally...does anybody know where I can buy that? I have rear mounts and two center stay rods figured out, but I'd really like a way to secure the splitter out towards the edges of the car...anybody have any ideas??? Please feel free to criticize/analyze the shape as well, input, good and bad, is always welcome!
Did my first track day at Hallett Motor Racing Circuit, which is probably now my favorite track. To me, it's tougher than MSR Cresson, Eagles Canyon, or NOLA, the other tracks I've done in this car. Very technical, not very fast, but a hoot, and also a brand new surface. I've got lots of video but the audio is messed up, so I'm not going to edit anything. My best lap was a 1:33.XX going clockwise, which probably means nothing, as it was a BRAND NEW, like literally the first time anyone had driven on it, asphalt surface, and traffic was TERRIBLE. That lap came at the end of a session on lap 9 or 10, rear tires were overheated like crazy, and I was steering the wrong way around most corners. I really wish the video was good, but my gopro mount loosened during that session and I filmed my headliner. :/
Next project: This is the mockup. The final will be 1/2" marine grade plywood. Incidentally...does anybody know where I can buy that? I have rear mounts and two center stay rods figured out, but I'd really like a way to secure the splitter out towards the edges of the car...anybody have any ideas??? Please feel free to criticize/analyze the shape as well, input, good and bad, is always welcome!
sheizasosay
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CSamsh, have you been able to mount a gopro on the lower grille? Mine blew back and aimed to the sky after it got wind speed.
Haven't tried.
Are you running any cooling ducts front/rear? We are running Porterfield R4/R4-S with cooling ducts and still had some brake fade after 5-6 hard laps on a brake-unfriendly track (TGPR). Will be interested to hear what you thought of the 24s.
thanks
Chris
Vorshlag-Fair
Official Site Vendor
Mark - we've done a few plywood splitters, as you know. And plywood is one of my favorite materials for splitters, along with aluminum plate.
I dislike carbon fiber and the sign shop corrugated aluminum/plastic bits (Alumalite and others) because they are weak. Carbon splitters shatter and don't take any abuse at all. Alumalite is too weak and can be compressed and destroyed with simply the pressure of your fingers. Alumalite is a joke and shouldn't be used even in autocrossing (you should see what a cone will do to this stuff! BOOM!). Carbon fiber is stiff and light, but super expensive and still too fragile. Its fine for Pro level racing where you have half a dozen spares and a crew to replace it after every off, but for guys like us? No way. Its also been embraced by the Hard Parking crowd.
That's basically what you can do with a splitter - make it super strong or super weak. Either the splitter gets destroyed when you have a significant off, or the mounts do and the splitter stays intact.
We've shown that aluminum is durable and strong, of course. After dozens of little offs with no damage to it, my big 150 mph crash ripped the splitter clean off at Road Atlanta - but it was easily repaired and back on the car and functional a week later. The strongest splitter option is almost always going to be aluminum, in 1/8" to 3/16" thickness. We use 6061-T6, which is rigid and you can really bang it off of curbs and it has GREAT abrasion resistance. I've dragged that thing over concrete and asphalt roads, curbs, gravel, you name it. All it does it knock off the paint.
Wood is kind of the best all around material, due to its SUPER low cost, easy fabrication, and flexibility. It also abrades well - and many carbon fiber splitters use wood (jabrock) as a replacable wear plates on the bottom.
Check out the following build threads and photo galleries for a couple of wood splitters we made:
Vorshlag $2010 GRM Challenge E30 LSx:
Brianne Corn's Subaru STi Pikes Peak hillclimb car:
To be rigid enough to withstand 200-400 pounds of force (we can stick two adults on the end of my splitter) the splitter usually needs to be reinforced with some structure. Our 3/16" plate splitter doesn't but the 15/32" plywood splitter on the red Subaru did.
Here are a handful of pictures that show how we made the aluminum tubing reinforced-plywood splitter for the Pikes Peak car. This thing was bashed and scraped and pounded for a week of racing up the most grueling hill climb in the world.
So yea, that's got some info on it you might can use. There are also a few rules of thumb for splitters.
1. Anything more than about 6" from the front of the car is wasted (but with a ducted hood we made a 10" long unit work)
2. Try to keep the top of the splitter sealed to the front of the car (see the red Subaru above)
3. The lower you can mount it the more downforce it makes - but the more it scrapes
4. An easily removable splitter is much harder to make. An adjustable rake splitter is much harder to make. Keep it simple.
5. Keep the hardware flush mount and the bottom side of the splitter smooth.
6. Make the splitter go back under the car to the front axle centerline, if you can. Going beyond that often runs afoul of some series and class rules.
7. Keep the splitter level or even a slightly downward rake at the front
8. If the front of the splitter protrudes out more than 2-3" it is likely going to need 2-4 struts (supports).
Good luck,
I dislike carbon fiber and the sign shop corrugated aluminum/plastic bits (Alumalite and others) because they are weak. Carbon splitters shatter and don't take any abuse at all. Alumalite is too weak and can be compressed and destroyed with simply the pressure of your fingers. Alumalite is a joke and shouldn't be used even in autocrossing (you should see what a cone will do to this stuff! BOOM!). Carbon fiber is stiff and light, but super expensive and still too fragile. Its fine for Pro level racing where you have half a dozen spares and a crew to replace it after every off, but for guys like us? No way. Its also been embraced by the Hard Parking crowd.
That's basically what you can do with a splitter - make it super strong or super weak. Either the splitter gets destroyed when you have a significant off, or the mounts do and the splitter stays intact.
We've shown that aluminum is durable and strong, of course. After dozens of little offs with no damage to it, my big 150 mph crash ripped the splitter clean off at Road Atlanta - but it was easily repaired and back on the car and functional a week later. The strongest splitter option is almost always going to be aluminum, in 1/8" to 3/16" thickness. We use 6061-T6, which is rigid and you can really bang it off of curbs and it has GREAT abrasion resistance. I've dragged that thing over concrete and asphalt roads, curbs, gravel, you name it. All it does it knock off the paint.
Wood is kind of the best all around material, due to its SUPER low cost, easy fabrication, and flexibility. It also abrades well - and many carbon fiber splitters use wood (jabrock) as a replacable wear plates on the bottom.
Check out the following build threads and photo galleries for a couple of wood splitters we made:
Vorshlag $2010 GRM Challenge E30 LSx:
Brianne Corn's Subaru STi Pikes Peak hillclimb car:
- http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Vorshlag-Test-Pilots/Brianne-Corn-2005-STi/
- http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8124
To be rigid enough to withstand 200-400 pounds of force (we can stick two adults on the end of my splitter) the splitter usually needs to be reinforced with some structure. Our 3/16" plate splitter doesn't but the 15/32" plywood splitter on the red Subaru did.
Here are a handful of pictures that show how we made the aluminum tubing reinforced-plywood splitter for the Pikes Peak car. This thing was bashed and scraped and pounded for a week of racing up the most grueling hill climb in the world.
So yea, that's got some info on it you might can use. There are also a few rules of thumb for splitters.
1. Anything more than about 6" from the front of the car is wasted (but with a ducted hood we made a 10" long unit work)
2. Try to keep the top of the splitter sealed to the front of the car (see the red Subaru above)
3. The lower you can mount it the more downforce it makes - but the more it scrapes
4. An easily removable splitter is much harder to make. An adjustable rake splitter is much harder to make. Keep it simple.
5. Keep the hardware flush mount and the bottom side of the splitter smooth.
6. Make the splitter go back under the car to the front axle centerline, if you can. Going beyond that often runs afoul of some series and class rules.
7. Keep the splitter level or even a slightly downward rake at the front
8. If the front of the splitter protrudes out more than 2-3" it is likely going to need 2-4 struts (supports).
Good luck,
Last edited:
Got the 4" ducting in...
Also a video from Eagle's canyon. See commentary for new personal best times...
A couple notes from this day- brand new rotors, XP20's front, XP12's rear, later switched to new XP10's on the rear. Brakes were NOT GOOD all day, and I don't know why. Maybe I'm pushing harder, maybe the bleed was just "eh" or something...but I maxed out an Alcon strip on my caliper (500F???) so that's what prompted the change to 4" ducting.
I was somewhat amazed that I ran consistent 2:07.XX laps when I could run hot, as the pedal was never rock-solid all day long.
This was a good exercise in tapping the pedal with my left foot down the straight, which by the end of the day, I was doing without thinking about doing it.
In retrospect, this was a great learning experience...how to manage a car with bad brakes...and still turn a fast lap. (At least it was fast for me). Had I the confidence in my brakes that I normally have, I think a 2:05/2:06 would have popped up on the aim (which is awesome by the way, and which everybody needs if you don't already have it)
Also a video from Eagle's canyon. See commentary for new personal best times...
A couple notes from this day- brand new rotors, XP20's front, XP12's rear, later switched to new XP10's on the rear. Brakes were NOT GOOD all day, and I don't know why. Maybe I'm pushing harder, maybe the bleed was just "eh" or something...but I maxed out an Alcon strip on my caliper (500F???) so that's what prompted the change to 4" ducting.
I was somewhat amazed that I ran consistent 2:07.XX laps when I could run hot, as the pedal was never rock-solid all day long.
This was a good exercise in tapping the pedal with my left foot down the straight, which by the end of the day, I was doing without thinking about doing it.
In retrospect, this was a great learning experience...how to manage a car with bad brakes...and still turn a fast lap. (At least it was fast for me). Had I the confidence in my brakes that I normally have, I think a 2:05/2:06 would have popped up on the aim (which is awesome by the way, and which everybody needs if you don't already have it)
Simmons-Racing
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Did you damage anything when you went off?
Simmons
Simmons
Nope. Very un-dramatic. I wasn't going that fast, it's a very slow turn.
Simmons-Racing
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good to hear
Vorshlag-Fair
Official Site Vendor
We'll make some of these for you soon, Mark...
These will be for sale shortly, after I test them at Hallett in a NASA TT event this weekend. You coming to that, since its in your back yard??
These will be for sale shortly, after I test them at Hallett in a NASA TT event this weekend. You coming to that, since its in your back yard??
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