Mastering the art of the S197 3 link suspension (sixty foot)

[kdanner]

All the cars in stock are just so quick down low, I'm really curious what the best 60' is for one of the CJ stockers. Some of those guys are really open to talking about things like that, but others aren't. I've seen 1.23 but don't know what exactly the best is, surely it can't be too far from there on a 9" tire footbraking when the backhalved superstock cars with a lot more tire and transbrake don't do a whole lot better.

 

[Fabman]

Spent a lot of time with some Cobra Jets lately, I've seen every part in them, under them, you name it. Not storebought CJs that some collector buys to look at or maybe makes a few hits in some kind of bush league racing, these are cars built from what were originally street cars and actually get raced in NHRA competition by guys who have even done things like win the US Nationals. The rear supension was interesting, different than what is typically seen. NA cars with the 2010 352 pushrod and the 2010 4.6 3V combos, run middle tens and 60' in the 1.30s, couple of footbrake auto cars and one was a stick car. That's not all out, they still have performance left in the bank. Every car I've seen had an upper control arm that was a foot long center to center, the front pivot point being right by the big bolt that is under the rear seat normally. The lowers were only dropped down by the amount the OEM anti roll like came on the store bought CJs does, little more than an inch, way less than the aftermarket brackets do. And these cars were low, way low, like slammed low with no bumpstops at all. What has become accepted as the norm for S197 suspension would tell you they would never work, but a mid ten car that 60 foots that quick on a soft tuneup obviously does work very well.

What I'm getting at here is don't just run with the pack and copy what someone else has. Test, make some parts of your own, test some more. You'll never be faster than the other guy if you just run the same stuff he does. There's a TT coyote car in NC running really good right now with homebuilt suspension parts, engine, and trans, another good example of working to figure out what his own car wants, not just copying some other guy.

This ^^^^

 

[Five Oh Brian]

2014 Mustang GT Glass Roof Coupe. 3800 # race weight (with driver). 100% Factory Stock Suspension, Exhaust, and Engine with:

- Gear size = 4.10 FRPP
- Brand / tire size = M&H Racemaster 275/45/18 drag radials
- Which converter at what stall? Circle-D 4E, 5000 rpm stall

Best 60' = 1.656, with many 60's in the 1.66 to 1.69 range. Timeslip from last weekend

 

[BMR Tech]

run middle tens and 60' in the 1.30s, couple of footbrake auto cars and one was a stick car.

I wanted to quote this. I don't think many people realize what this takes, to actually do it.

I got home at 3AM this morning. We went to Orlando last night to run our car, testing some tune changes and IC changes.

We went back to back 1.42's with a nice hefty 3760lb race weight. ET's were both 10.5X.

My goal was to get a 1.39 with a 10.40-10.50.

We have been into the 1.3's, but, it's too easy. All we have to do is throw a smaller blower pulley on. I am more into seeing an efficient time-slip, myself.

Rebecca's (Starkey / VMP) car was consistent 1.35's last night. She made several 9.50 passes.

Her car is running SUPER aggressive AS% with a very short IC length. I was actually surprised to see it work so well last night, in terms of consistency.

 

[foxxxtman]

2014 Mustang GT Glass Roof Coupe. 3800 # race weight (with driver). 100% Factory Stock Suspension, Exhaust, and Engine with:

- Gear size = 4.10 FRPP
- Brand / tire size = M&H Racemaster 275/45/18 drag radials
- Which converter at what stall? Circle-D 4E, 5000 rpm stall

Best 60' = 1.656, with many 60's in the 1.66 to 1.69 range. Timeslip from last weekend

^^ Very nice! I'm excited to see what mine will do, O/R-H is due any time and i have a Mike Rousch tune in my tuner right now I'm waiting to load and datalog once it's installed. I see you have the converter and aluminum driveshaft so we'll see how that compares to the O/R-H benefits, i'm guessing you will be about a half second quicker. That's assuming my stock tires hook well, I see you're on racing tires. Oh, I guess you're on 4.10 gears too, how are those working? I've heard very mixed reviews

 

[Five Oh Brian]

^^ Very nice! I'm excited to see what mine will do, O/R-H is due any time and i have a Mike Rousch tune in my tuner right now I'm waiting to load and datalog once it's installed. I see you have the converter and aluminum driveshaft so we'll see how that compares to the O/R-H benefits, i'm guessing you will be about a half second quicker. That's assuming my stock tires hook well, I see you're on racing tires. Oh, I guess you're on 4.10 gears too, how are those working? I've heard very mixed reviews

Converter is the best bang-for-the-buck after power adders in these cars, IMO. I, too, will be adding an O/R-H soon (my wife finally said to go ahead and order one - LOL). Seems the consensus is that the O/R mid pipes are worth two tenths - good gains for so little money! 4.10's gears did not change my ET's at all versus the 3.15's, but I like how it feels on the street (this is my daily driver) so I'll keep the 4.10's. Definitely need drag radials with the converter (and even more now with the 4.10's). If your street tires hook, you should be able to run 12.50 or better with Mike Rousch's tune. Trap speed near 115 should be about right.

 

[FIVE-OH]

Converter is the best bang-for-the-buck after power adders in these cars, IMO. I, too, will be adding an O/R-H soon (my wife finally said to go ahead and order one - LOL). Seems the consensus is that the O/R mid pipes are worth two tenths - good gains for so little money! 4.10's gears did not change my ET's at all versus the 3.15's, but I like how it feels on the street (this is my daily driver) so I'll keep the 4.10's. Definitely need drag radials with the converter (and even more now with the 4.10's). If your street tires hook, you should be able to run 12.50 or better with Mike Rousch's tune. Trap speed near 115 should be about right.

Since it is your DD be aware of the smells you will get from the ORP. You may or may not be okay with that...

As for the above poster, with a Mike Rousch tune and ORP he will be quicker then 12.50 in good air. I run that with his tune and cats on street tires and my race weight is near 4000 pounds with my big ass in it. I would say 12.30's at around 113 or so. Mike's best with just his tune (fully optimized) and an ORP on street tires was 12.1 @ 114 in 200 DA.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Since it is your DD be aware of the smells you will get from the ORP. You may or may not be okay with that...

As for the above poster, with a Mike Rousch tune and ORP he will be quicker then 12.50 in good air. I run that with his tune and cats on street tires and my race weight is near 4000 pounds with my big ass in it. I would say 12.30's at around 113 or so. Mike's best with just his tune (fully optimized) and an ORP on street tires was 12.1 @ 114 in 200 DA.

What kind of smells are you talking about? I'm old enough to have owned carbureted cars that were built before catalytic converters were around, so we all had the equivalent of "off-road" exhaust back in the day, so to speak. I don't remember any smells other than unburned hydrocarbons.

That would be great if foxxxtman could run low 12's with just the tune and O/R pipe, but that sure seems tough with street tires unless track prep is awesome.

I'll be at one of our local tracks tonight working on my launch (it's a test 'n' tune event). I think I've figured out the best way to launch with the converter, so I'll be wittling down my 60'. I've got my reaction times consistently in the 0.0XX's nearly every run now, so it's all in the short times now. My car dead hooks; no wheel hop, no spin, no drama - and that's with 100% stock suspension - so looking to post 60's under 1.6 today.

 

[FIVE-OH]

What kind of smells are you talking about? I'm old enough to have owned carbureted cars that were built before catalytic converters were around, so we all had the equivalent of "off-road" exhaust back in the day, so to speak. I don't remember any smells other than unburned hydrocarbons.

That would be great if foxxxtman could run low 12's with just the tune and O/R pipe, but that sure seems tough with street tires unless track prep is awesome.

I'll be at one of our local tracks tonight working on my launch (it's a test 'n' tune event). I think I've figured out the best way to launch with the converter, so I'll be wittling down my 60'. I've got my reaction times consistently in the 0.0XX's nearly every run now, so it's all in the short times now. My car dead hooks; no wheel hop, no spin, no drama - and that's with 100% stock suspension - so looking to post 60's under 1.6 today.

If you're used to it you may be okay with it. ORP's smell like exhaust and fuel pretty bad when you have the windows down. Plus they can make a "hissing" sound in these cars. It can get annoying, especially if you have stock mufflers and are as picky about sound as I am (I am on my third axle-back). If my car was more of a race car I would surely do it, but my Mustang isn't so I decided against using the ORP and sold it. Just wanted to give you a heads up incase...

Low 12's with Mike's tune and a ORP is easily doable if the track prep is decent and the DA is good. Even on street tires...and at full weight. My track preps very good and I just about dead hook on street tires with stock suspension. So I know the track could hold more power, a converter probably would need a tire, but bolt-ons would be good to go...

Good luck getting that 60' down! And unless you are bracket racing don't give two craps about your RT. It has zippo to do with your ET...

 

[Morris]

It's very likely you will run that time or better I did 12.2 with street tires exhaust and a Bamma tune.

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Ran a new best today (11.80 @ 114 +) with a new best 60' of 1.627. I also had an 11.87 run that lifted a front tire off the ground...

 

[daveyboy]

Ran a new best today (11.80 @ 114 +) with a new best 60' of 1.627. I also had an 11.87 run that lifted a front tire off the ground...

Pacific?

 

[Five Oh Brian]

Pacific?

Bremerton. DA was nice (about sea level). Met up with a few Coyote friends. The other 3 had MT-82's vs my 6R80, so you can imagine who went the quickest all day ...

 

[daveyboy]

Very nice!

 

[DVEST8R]

BMR adj upper & mount
BMR lca's
Modified BMR relo brackets
poly diff bushing
che axle brace
Viking da rear shocks
275/60/15 radial pros
best 60 foot 1.42

 

[BMR Tech]

^ MUST have 1.3X's!!!!!!!!!!

 

[DVEST8R]

^ MUST have 1.3X's!!!!!!!!!!

I think it is soon to happen !

 

[BMR Tech]

Off the shelf complete BMR Suspension on a 6-Speed manual car, resulted in a 1.31 sixty foot time this last weekend.

He is going for 1.2X's soon.

Can't say I have ever seen a 1.2X in a manual trans street car (S197) - I hope he gets there.

 

[BMR Tech]

^ OH, I forgot to share.

Upper position on UCA Mount (BMR)
Middle Position on LCA Brackets (BMR)

 

[Hiltsy845]

Kelly, stock ride height or lowered?