Downforce??

screaming_pc

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I know the higher end super/hyper cars all have flat undertrays. If someone was to build something like that for our cars, would it have any effect? Has it been done already in a street/track mustang?
 
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sheizasosay

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908SSP built one. I think Gmitch has one. But no mass production exists to my knowledge. Not to mention, there is a ton of other stuff you need to be looking at before that. Vorshlag has some functional aero going on.
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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908SSP built one. I think Gmitch has one. But no mass production exists to my knowledge. Not to mention, there is a ton of other stuff you need to be looking at before that. Vorshlag has some functional aero going on.

Agreed. So much "lower hanging fruit" exists on an S197 with respect to aero that it is almost incomprehensible to me to focus on making a Mustang a flat-bottom car (or a tunnel car). Under car aero matters, of course, but the degree to which it matters is VERY low compared to the top of the car, splitters, wings, tire spats, diffusers and other Big Ticket Items.

B61G1909-M.jpg


One of the big complaints I have with under-car aero is how easily it tends to get trashed when going off track. Sure, some cars are built with flat bottoms (Corvettes, Ferrarris, Vipers) but when you are adding this to non-flat cars it tends to be lightweight panels that hang fairly low. I've seen these destroyed on even simple offs before. If they are strong enough to take a hit they usually weigh a lot, too.

_DSC4197-M.jpg


http://thinkfastengineering.com/2013/07/the-zones/

This article linked above about "production car aero" written by race engineer and aero guru Neil Roberts covers the zones of a production car where the biggest gains can be had. Sometimes it is obvious -the leading edge of the bumper or trailing edges of wheel openings - and other times it is non-obvious (places like the A-pillar are critical). Start at page 60 and read to page 65 in the monthly NASA Speed News issue it was published in.

http://thinkfastengineering.com/2013/05/splitters-spoilers-and-wings/

This is another great article Neil wrote about splitters, spoilers and wings. Super important. This one starts on page 34 of another NASA Speed News issue.

I recommend printing both of those articles out and reading them through many many times. Then pick up Neil's book ThinkFAST and read it cover to cover.
 

csamsh

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Isn't a flat undertray more of a top speed item than a road race track item?

No. If you can get a flat undertray to work with a diffuser and a splitter it will make downforce- the diffuser will help speed up the air under the car. See: Brabham BT46
 

Dubstep Shep

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No. If you can get a flat undertray to work with a diffuser and a splitter it will make downforce- the diffuser will help speed up the air under the car. See: Brabham BT46


Interesting.

That said, isn't the improvement in downforce far inferior to many other mods that can be done, but much better in the air resistance improvement department?
 

Whiskey11

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Just as a point of anal retentiveness, does an undertray produce downforce or reduce lift? I think it's a pretty important distinction personally. If we are talking about speeding up the air under the car then I would think the later and not the former. The end result is more loading of the tires (for good or bad) but the mechanics behind how that happens is far different.
 

sheizasosay

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Just as a point of anal retentiveness, does an undertray produce downforce or reduce lift? I think it's a pretty important distinction personally. If we are talking about speeding up the air under the car then I would think the later and not the former. The end result is more loading of the tires (for good or bad) but the mechanics behind how that happens is far different.

I would think it(under-tray) would be used to decrease drag by helping the function of the rear diffuser. The rear carries the majority of the drag doesn't it?

And that ties back into doing other stuff first.

I'm sure I would enjoy that book Terry referenced.
 

sheizasosay

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barbaro

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Cool view on a pretty mustang. I'm almost certain that rear diffuser is worthless for function.

I tend to agree but It looks bitchin does'nt it though? It could be functional if you tied the belly pan into the diffuser. But in order to do that you would have to do a lot of fabricating.
 

mavisky

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I tend to agree but It looks bitchin does'nt it though? It could be functional if you tied the belly pan into the diffuser. But in order to do that you would have to do a lot of fabricating.

A guy i know from my old DSM days just posted this awesome shot of soe new tunnels they fabbed for this S15 in Australia. He's got a couple lap records with his old fwd eclipse thanks in part to his aero work. HIs work with other chassis has set outright lap records and they're now pushing the boundaries of DOT radials as far as force loads applied.

 

barbaro

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That right there is cool. As for the hollywood hot rod, on second thought that design has got to reduce a significant amount of drag. Because the inner portion of the bumber acts like a parachute capturing air. Cutting ot the middle of the bumper and routing the air past the vertical fins of the diffuser has to have some beneficial effect in reducing lift in the rear.
 

modernbeat

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Flat bottom is not best. It's efficient and slippery, and fairly easy to build, but you need some contours down there to produce downforce, particularly up front.
 

Roadracer350

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Jason, didn't you guys tell me that you will also incur some huge time penalties in NASA and SCCA for doing the bottom?
 

modernbeat

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Yes. With the ruleset we currently compete in there are limits and penalties to going too far. So we have an envelope with some boundaries we have to work in.

FWIW, before I got back into roadracing I worked on, and did engineering for a few different Land Speed Racing teams. Aero, particularly low drag and yaw control, is king in that sport.
 

fnfast

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I had a very good man Brian (roadracer350) make me one for the front of my car. He answered all of my questions and made me one of his custom pieces. I'm the first to pick one up and love the work he put into it with custom alluminum brackets, and all stainless hardware. He also makes custom alluminum splitter rods that I will order from him one day. Here are a few pics. The fit and finish is perfect!! And also included instructions with pictures. Thanks, Sal

If your interested just pm him or email. [email protected]












 
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