f1 series procharger with wastegates?

[v8venomgt]

f1-d procharger

I've started exploring f series procharger more so out of curiosity than anything at this point. I know that a few guys on here converted them to utilize a wastegate. Thus seemingly bringing boost and more so torque earlier on in the rev range while also allowing it to controll boost smilar to a turbo. I know this isn't a brand new concept and it has been discussed before. My question is does a wastegated f1 procharger quiet down that constant influx sound of air moving at idle and cruise? From my understanding, procharger designed the kit as blow through to circumvent hot air being pumped into the motor? Would that mean a wastegate conversion would convert it to draw through? Would it still be a efficient design and c quiet it down?

 

[v8venomgt]

doing a little more research. not much info on this forum about this blower. stole this from the other team (ls1tech.com) clearly an apples to oranges comparison, but this may be a better alternative than the f1r ive seen a few people use on this site. according to procharger, its basically the same as an F-1A, and the only difference is a slightly revised impellar that provides more mid range but not as much top end as the F-1A.

It has the same gear ratio and physical size as the F-1A.

Yes, I would place it between the two. Below is a dyno graph from the old shop in which we used an F-1A. Take a look at how much torque this LS2/402 got at just 2500 rpm. Unless the engine was to be used in a truck, I just don't see where anymore low end power is going to be needed. Bob

I've got an F1D in my 99 C5.




Engine mods:
Forged 346ci with eagle rods and JE pistons, stock crank.
LQ9 ported heads (yielding CR of 9.5)
Cam 226/232, 115 LSA, 575/575
63lbs injectors
LS6 intake
ECS dual nozzle meth
8 rib
4.10 pulley
15psi

http://www.kcpimp.com/gallery3/var/albums/99-C5-FRC/DCP_15432.jpg?m=1313817709

 

[Mr. Q]

from what i've seen on this site and my research, most people start with a p-1sc. when they get the jones for more power, they either go to D-1 or F-1A. i've never heard of anyone using a f-1d

 

[Sharad]

I've started exploring f series procharger more so out of curiosity than anything at this point. I know that a few guys on here converted them to utilize a wastegate. Thus seemingly bringing boost and more so torque earlier on in the rev range while also allowing it to controll boost smilar to a turbo. I know this isn't a brand new concept and it has been discussed before. My question is does a wastegated f1 procharger quiet down that constant influx sound of air moving at idle and cruise? From my understanding, procharger designed the kit as blow through to circumvent hot air being pumped into the motor? Would that mean a wastegate conversion would convert it to draw through? Would it still be a efficient design and c quiet it down?

A friend of mine runs 9.20s with a stock Coyote and a wastegated ProCharger D1. Obviously, that strategy works, but I like the ProCharger powercurve so I do not run a wastegate on my D1 ProCharged Coyote. My thinking is, if you wanted to quiet the influx of air (whether from the WG or the BOV, you would need to recirculate it. I've also heard of people putting an air filter on the vent tube which quiets it down. I run the ProCharger Open Race BOV and it's loud, but I don't mind it.

 

[v8venomgt]

from what i've seen on this site and my research, most people start with a p-1sc. when they get the jones for more power, they either go to D-1 or F-1A. i've never heard of anyone using a f-1d

the f1-d is relatively new. Its in between the d1sc and f1a. Its sized smaller than the f1-a and is intended for smaller modern motors and brings torque on earlier in the rev range compared to the larger f blowers.

A friend of mine runs 9.20s with a stock Coyote and a wastegated ProCharger D1. Obviously, that strategy works, but I like the ProCharger powercurve so I do not run a wastegate on my D1 ProCharged Coyote. My thinking is, if you wanted to quiet the influx of air (whether from the WG or the BOV, you would need to recirculate it. I've also heard of people putting an air filter on the vent tube which quiets it down. I run the ProCharger Open Race BOV and it's loud, but I don't mind it.

I later realized after making this thread that the f series can be ordered so it does recirculate. So major slicing and dicing, and adding components fortunately isn't required to make it more manageable on the street. I'd still love to hear some feedback about this blower on a 3v mod motor.

 

[retfr8flyr]

PM 05Stroker. He is running an F1 and he knows a lot about them.

 

[swflastang05]

I'm running an F-1A with a WG and found it to work pretty good for pump gas but after I switched to e85 the WG got kind of annoying since I dont have a boost controller, I had to install new springs to crank it up witch is a PITA. The WG doesnt affect the way it sounds.

 

[v8venomgt]

PM 05Stroker. He is running an F1 and he knows a lot about them.

that's a good suggestion. Thanks Earl.

I'm running an F-1A with a WG and found it to work pretty good for pump gas but after I switched to e85 the WG got kind of annoying since I dont have a boost controller, I had to install new springs to crank it up witch is a PITA. The WG doesnt affect the way it sounds.

I had a few thing mixed up which I now realize. I was doing some reading and it seems like a wastegate can be hard on the impellar. I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of guy so the adjustability isn't a priority to me. especially if there's a chance of damaging $$$ parts like a head unit. As far as sound, the f series blowers can be ordered with a recirculated valve rather than a dump to atmosphere from what I'm told. Do you have first hand experience if they can be ordered like that? How do you like your e85/f1a combo? I'm assuming its pretty predictable and consistent?

 

[702GT]

I'm running an F-1A with a WG and found it to work pretty good for pump gas but after I switched to e85 the WG got kind of annoying since I dont have a boost controller, I had to install new springs to crank it up witch is a PITA. The WG doesnt affect the way it sounds.

Why not just get a manual boost controller? A nice one runs about $30 on ebay, or you could build your own. No need for the fancy electronic stuff, unless you really want adjustment on the fly.


I have a MBC but it's not installed since the WG I bought has the spring for the boost level I need. It's nice to run a 12psi pulley and keep my motor alive at 7psi. Really dig having the extra bottom end too!

 

[702GT]

that's a good suggestion. Thanks Earl.

I had a few thing mixed up which I now realize. I was doing some reading and it seems like a wastegate can be hard on the impellar. I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of guy so the adjustability isn't a priority to me. especially if there's a chance of damaging $$$ parts like a head unit. As far as sound, the f series blowers can be ordered with a recirculated valve rather than a dump to atmosphere from what I'm told. Do you have first hand experience if they can be ordered like that? How do you like your e85/f1a combo? I'm assuming its pretty predictable and consistent?

I don't see how a WG could be hard on the impeller, all you're doing with a WG is seeping off boost at a specific PSI. No different than when the BOV is open at cruise. What hurts the impeller is blower surge, which is cause by having too much boost and not a big enough BOV. When the BOV opens it's because you've let off the pedal, which closes the throttle blades and causes back-pressure against the impeller. Makes the BOV stutter. Sort of a boost piping over-boost condition. *IF* the BOV isn't big enough for the CFM and PSI you're huffing, this condition occurs and it's bad for the seals/impeller. The black bypass valve that comes with the procharger kit, for example, is too small for a 12psi+ setup. You can get away with surging your blower for (sometimes) a long time, but eventually the seals will get tired of it.

If you're looking for a recirculating race valve, procharger sells their red race valve in both open atmosphere and recirc style. You could just put a filter on the end of the recirc valve, if you need it to be quiet(er). Otherwise you'll have to run a tube/hose from the recirc valve back to the blower intake tube. IMO, only a draw type MAF setup should ever do this. I would rather a BOV be loud, than send air that has been heated by the blower, back into the blower inlet to get heated some more. Just makes the head unit hotter IMO, which will result in higher IAT's.

 

[Sonicblue_s197]

I'm running an F1C on my 3 valve on a cog setup, I have yet to run it since we are doing the auto swap at the same time but I ran the f1a for just over a year and liked. The f1a was pretty much maxed out so I jumped up to the C which only thing different is a bigger housing and inlet 4" vs 3.75.

 

[05yellowgt]

I too ran an F1A and E85. I had a stroker 9.3:1 motor with stock heads, cams, and intake. Made over 600ftlb starting at about 3000rpm through to nearly redline. If you are running E85, I wouldn't worry about a waste gate setup, The F1A was making good boost and it just pulled like a freight train till the valve springs started to get pissed (I needed upgraded units but never got that far before selling the car). If you are limited to pump gas, then a wastegate can be a good way of staying within the limits of the fuel, and you can avoid running a true pizza pan sized pulley to keep the boost down (the bigger pulleys don't fit under many hoods).

 

[swflastang05]

that's a good suggestion. Thanks Earl.

I had a few thing mixed up which I now realize. I was doing some reading and it seems like a wastegate can be hard on the impellar. I'm more of a set it and forget it kind of guy so the adjustability isn't a priority to me. especially if there's a chance of damaging $$$ parts like a head unit. As far as sound, the f series blowers can be ordered with a recirculated valve rather than a dump to atmosphere from what I'm told. Do you have first hand experience if they can be ordered like that? How do you like your e85/f1a combo? I'm assuming its pretty predictable and consistent?

I dont have firsthand experience with recirculation but I know you can get the bypass valve with an end you can connect a hose to if you want to recirculate. I love my combo, its still pretty new to me, still dont have all the bugs worked out, mostly transmission issues now but its pretty awesome, especially after I switched to e85.

I'm running an F1C on my 3 valve on a cog setup, I have yet to run it since we are doing the auto swap at the same time but I ran the f1a for just over a year and liked. The f1a was pretty much maxed out so I jumped up to the C which only thing different is a bigger housing and inlet 4" vs 3.75.

It will be interesting to see how much better the C performs than the A..

I too ran an F1A and E85. I had a stroker 9.3:1 motor with stock heads, cams, and intake. Made over 600ftlb starting at about 3000rpm through to nearly redline. If you are running E85, I wouldn't worry about a waste gate setup, The F1A was making good boost and it just pulled like a freight train till the valve springs started to get pissed (I needed upgraded units but never got that far before selling the car). If you are limited to pump gas, then a wastegate can be a good way of staying within the limits of the fuel, and you can avoid running a true pizza pan sized pulley to keep the boost down (the bigger pulleys don't fit under many hoods).

^^this, my 4.25 pulley used to rub my old 2.5" hood, until I switched to a 4" cowl.

 

[v8venomgt]

I'm running an F-1A with a WG and found it to work pretty good for pump gas but after I switched to e85 the WG got kind of annoying since I dont have a boost controller, I had to install new springs to crank it up witch is a PITA. The WG doesnt affect the way it sounds.

i meant to ask you, why did the e85 conversion make the wastegate a pain?

I don't see how a WG could be hard on the impeller, all you're doing with a WG is seeping off boost at a specific PSI. No different than when the BOV is open at cruise. What hurts the impeller is blower surge, which is cause by having too much boost and not a big enough BOV. When the BOV opens it's because you've let off the pedal, which closes the throttle blades and causes back-pressure against the impeller. Makes the BOV stutter. Sort of a boost piping over-boost condition. *IF* the BOV isn't big enough for the CFM and PSI you're huffing, this condition occurs and it's bad for the seals/impeller. The black bypass valve that comes with the procharger kit, for example, is too small for a 12psi+ setup. You can get away with surging your blower for (sometimes) a long time, but eventually the seals will get tired of it.

If you're looking for a recirculating race valve, procharger sells their red race valve in both open atmosphere and recirc style. You could just put a filter on the end of the recirc valve, if you need it to be quiet(er). Otherwise you'll have to run a tube/hose from the recirc valve back to the blower intake tube. IMO, only a draw type MAF setup should ever do this. I would rather a BOV be loud, than send air that has been heated by the blower, back into the blower inlet to get heated some more. Just makes the head unit hotter IMO, which will result in higher IAT's.

good info. thamnks for being so detailed because this is out of my realm of knowledge at this point. the recirculating hose, is that something easily fabbed up, or does procharger/another vendor off that? i also saw some aftermarket brackets/rods that braced the headunit off of the shock tower. i didnt see anything offered by procharger, and some of those braces looked really nice actually.

I too ran an F1A and E85. I had a stroker 9.3:1 motor with stock heads, cams, and intake. Made over 600ftlb starting at about 3000rpm through to nearly redline. If you are running E85, I wouldn't worry about a waste gate setup, The F1A was making good boost and it just pulled like a freight train till the valve springs started to get pissed (I needed upgraded units but never got that far before selling the car). If you are limited to pump gas, then a wastegate can be a good way of staying within the limits of the fuel, and you can avoid running a true pizza pan sized pulley to keep the boost down (the bigger pulleys don't fit under many hoods).

e85 is easily available these days. i personally have not used it, but there are several stations nearby that carry it now. 600 ft lbs at 3000 rpms? untill recently i never really looked at centris. that said, i was under the impression for a long while that positive displacement units were only capable of low end torque like that. i dont plan on an overly radical or exotic engine build, but im really itching to know what an f1d delivers at such a low rpm if an f1a produced those sort of results. what size injector, and fuel system were you running with a f1a and e85? i currently run the stock gt500 pumps and SD 60s.

I dont have firsthand experience with recirculation but I know you can get the bypass valve with an end you can connect a hose to if you want to recirculate. I love my combo, its still pretty new to me, still dont have all the bugs worked out, mostly transmission issues now but its pretty awesome, especially after I switched to e85.



It will be interesting to see how much better the C performs than the A..



^^this, my 4.25 pulley used to rub my old 2.5" hood, until I switched to a 4" cowl.

yikes! is a cowl hood required with these blowers? fortunately my oem hood hasnt started to corrode like most, and id actually like to run the oem hood for the foreseeable future. were there any bugs youve encountered in the procharger unit in itself? silly question i know, but the prothane engine lowering mounts would not make a difference in this particular scenario im assuming?

ive seen the p1sc and d1sc in person, and the fit and finish is very nice. im assuming the same can be said about the larger units? also, is the procharger intercooler setup efficient? ive stumble on some statements (rather than hard factual info) that it isnt all that great of a unit?

 

[swflastang05]

i meant to ask you, why did the e85 conversion make the wastegate a pain?

good info. thamnks for being so detailed because this is out of my realm of knowledge at this point. the recirculating hose, is that something easily fabbed up, or does procharger/another vendor off that? i also saw some aftermarket brackets/rods that braced the headunit off of the shock tower. i didnt see anything offered by procharger, and some of those braces looked really nice actually.


e85 is easily available these days. i personally have not used it, but there are several stations nearby that carry it now. 600 ft lbs at 3000 rpms? untill recently i never really looked at centris. that said, i was under the impression for a long while that positive displacement units were only capable of low end torque like that. i dont plan on an overly radical or exotic engine build, but im really itching to know what an f1d delivers at such a low rpm if an f1a produced those sort of results. what size injector, and fuel system were you running with a f1a and e85? i currently run the stock gt500 pumps and SD 60s.

yikes! is a cowl hood required with these blowers? fortunately my oem hood hasnt started to corrode like most, and id actually like to run the oem hood for the foreseeable future. were there any bugs youve encountered in the procharger unit in itself? silly question i know, but the prothane engine lowering mounts would not make a difference in this particular scenario im assuming?

ive seen the p1sc and d1sc in person, and the fit and finish is very nice. im assuming the same can be said about the larger units? also, is the procharger intercooler setup efficient? ive stumble on some statements (rather than hard factual info) that it isnt all that great of a unit?

The e85 conversion did not make the WG painful, I just wanted to increase the boost after I switched over since I can do that safely now, I thought I could close the WG with the proper combination of vacuum lines but it didnt work so I had to order new springs and install them, which was the PITA part, lol.

The prothane mounts would probably help, IIRC my motor is at the OEM height. I dont think a cowl hood is required, but mine definitely cut grooves in my previous hood which was a cervinis 2.5 cowl and the front vents. The F-1A appears to be the same exact size, fit and finish as the P-1SC-1 I had before, just it's internals are different. Actually my F1 looks much better but my P1 was a few years old. I'm running the Bosch 100 lb/hr injectors that S&H sells with dual 465 pumps & hat, 8an feed and return, Fore regulator, billet rails, 10an filter. I have the 3 core intercooler and I'm no IC expert but it seems okay to me, I know they offer a race IC that's an inch wider I think but it wouldn't fit on my car due to the HUGE radiator I have and all the other stuff (auto car). My 3 core barely fits, I had to cut the back of the front bumper out for clearance as it is.

 

[702GT]

good info. thamnks for being so detailed because this is out of my realm of knowledge at this point. the recirculating hose, is that something easily fabbed up, or does procharger/another vendor off that? i also saw some aftermarket brackets/rods that braced the headunit off of the shock tower. i didnt see anything offered by procharger, and some of those braces looked really nice actually.

A recirc hose is just a giant vacuum line that goes from the bypass valve to the inlet tube for the blower. Still, a filter is the best way to go. The braces they make for centri head units is personally something I dont like unless it is braced to the motor. The head unit bracket is bolted to the motor via timing cover. Essentially when the engine torques, the bracket and head unit move with it. Bracing the unit to the shock tower and the like invites over stressing the head unit, its designed mounting bracket, and timing cover/block. People have cracked their engine blocks using K-member braces that bolt to the K and engine block via the tranny bell housing. IMO bracing a centri head unit in a similar manner could cause similar issues. The real strain in virtually any belt driven supercharger is at the crank. The ammount of tension against the crank being pulled in one direction can cause main bearing premature wear and failure. With the thickness and design of the P1, D1, and F1 series procharger bracket, I have a hard time seeing that thing flexing and justifying a need for additional bracing. I think it has more potential for harm than good.

And as for E85, honestly it's the way to go. After my experiences with E-85, if you are running a 405lph pump or bigger, you should just go return style system. It will save you and your tuner headache in the long run for drive-ability. E85 burns cooler, 105 octane. Allows for more timing in all areas of the powerband, which is why you see the great torque numbers. It's just good stuff. I really encourage regular testing of your stations e85 though, I've seen what happens to a 1200hp twin turbo e85 termi 4v on a bad cell of e85. Same thing that happens to any boosted motor with bad fuel, lol. His bad, but that's $20k down the shitter.

 

[v8venomgt]

The e85 conversion did not make the WG painful, I just wanted to increase the boost after I switched over since I can do that safely now, I thought I could close the WG with the proper combination of vacuum lines but it didnt work so I had to order new springs and install them, which was the PITA part, lol.

The prothane mounts would probably help, IIRC my motor is at the OEM height. I dont think a cowl hood is required, but mine definitely cut grooves in my previous hood which was a cervinis 2.5 cowl and the front vents. The F-1A appears to be the same exact size, fit and finish as the P-1SC-1 I had before, just it's internals are different. Actually my F1 looks much better but my P1 was a few years old. I'm running the Bosch 100 lb/hr injectors that S&H sells with dual 465 pumps & hat, 8an feed and return, Fore regulator, billet rails, 10an filter. I have the 3 core intercooler and I'm no IC expert but it seems okay to me, I know they offer a race IC that's an inch wider I think but it wouldn't fit on my car due to the HUGE radiator I have and all the other stuff (auto car). My 3 core barely fits, I had to cut the back of the front bumper out for clearance as it is.

ha ok, at first i wasnt quite following but that definitely clears it up. im surprised you said the casing looks to be the same packaging because on an LS forum i saw the casing difference between a d1sc vs an f1a. it seemed pretty noticable. with the fuel system you outlined, what is the projected ceiling on that?

A recirc hose is just a giant vacuum line that goes from the bypass valve to the inlet tube for the blower. Still, a filter is the best way to go. The braces they make for centri head units is personally something I dont like unless it is braced to the motor. The head unit bracket is bolted to the motor via timing cover. Essentially when the engine torques, the bracket and head unit move with it. Bracing the unit to the shock tower and the like invites over stressing the head unit, its designed mounting bracket, and timing cover/block. People have cracked their engine blocks using K-member braces that bolt to the K and engine block via the tranny bell housing. IMO bracing a centri head unit in a similar manner could cause similar issues. The real strain in virtually any belt driven supercharger is at the crank. The ammount of tension against the crank being pulled in one direction can cause main bearing premature wear and failure. With the thickness and design of the P1, D1, and F1 series procharger bracket, I have a hard time seeing that thing flexing and justifying a need for additional bracing. I think it has more potential for harm than good.

And as for E85, honestly it's the way to go. After my experiences with E-85, if you are running a 405lph pump or bigger, you should just go return style system. It will save you and your tuner headache in the long run for drive-ability. E85 burns cooler, 105 octane. Allows for more timing in all areas of the powerband, which is why you see the great torque numbers. It's just good stuff. I really encourage regular testing of your stations e85 though, I've seen what happens to a 1200hp twin turbo e85 termi 4v on a bad cell of e85. Same thing that happens to any boosted motor with bad fuel, lol. His bad, but that's $20k down the shitter.

i hadnt thought of the bracing on that context. the way you outlined seems to be the most logical. shit luck about that terminator though. i dont know if id ever get past that. thats why i stick with 93. its always consistent based off my experience at least. is a double keyed crank an absolute must with an f series blower?

 

[Sonicblue_s197]

I had to run a brace from the blower to the strut tower. The bracket would start flexing pretty bad under load so I had one made. IL post a pic here in a bit

 

[swflastang05]

^^ I don't remember what the ceiling is supposed to be on my fuel system, Jeremy H (S&H) set it up for me. He just said it will be plenty for my needs. I also forgot to mention I have a fore pump controller and boost activated switch, so just cruising around town there's only one pump running then at 2 psi the second pump kicks on. This of course reduces wear and tear as well as not heating the fuel as much.