First Auto-X event! My experience and some advice I would like

[Renesis07]

I somehow missed these posts when I was looking on tapatalk, sorry about that.

I think I found your push. More air pressure in the back tires will loosen the car up as well, that may be the best play here.





I'm not much of a coach, but like I said I will help however I can. You can ride with us, too. My wife is the better shoe, ride with her.

Not sure with those mods....with no cats, you really aren't legal for esp I don't think. I would keep running in R....nobody will care until you start winning.



Yep, you can run just Sunday.....or tell your boss

Yea I'll definitely be monitoring air pressure this time around, last time I didn't even check them. I was just running the car more or less practicing and getting familiar with things.

I wasn't sure about the catless and running esp, however I plan to switch to a catted setup soon anyways, so by next season I should be okay.

That's great I can just run on Sunday, I will be there!

Not all street tires are created equal, figure you'd be 2 seconds faster on Hankook RS3s. No need to buy them yet, although your staggered setup is contributing to your understeer.
More negative camber, a bigger rear bar, and more tire pressure can all reduce understeer.
So can reduced entry speed, reduced steering angle, and reduced throttle.
A more experienced driver in your car can give you feedback about how much is car vs driver.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[Renesis07]

You may or may not be able to use the feedback from relatively small changes in rebound rate, which is what the "turns" on an adjustable Sport Koni change.

At my first autocross after installing the Sports, I made three runs at "street" trim, all the way soft, all the way around, as a base line. Fourth run I cranked the rears all the way hard. Remarkable difference, much more controlled feeling, less initial understeer in those wicked too-fast approaches. Fifth run was confirmation. Sixth run, fronts all the way hard. I liked the feeling, but it was back to dramatic understeer. Backed the fronts off halfway for the Seventh run, found it easing back from the drama, but the Fourth and Fifth conditions was still best (fronts full soft, rears full hard). Anything less than a half-turn, in subsequent trials, I couldn't sense any difference.

Some time later I changed the rear stabilizer bar for the H&R 26mm item. Same kind of routine as far as trim changes showed me the sway bar increase brought the car to pretty much neutral in most circumstances, and it seemed to me the shock adjustments were less effective with the larger bar. But I could be wrong. I don't drive autocross as much as I'd like to, and there is a tendency to lose sensitivity between practices.

All this is on an otherwise stock '13 5.0 on stock wheels and tires: 255-40x19 Pirelli originals, 30 PSI all around. The wear limit on the tire corners is not quite reaching the wear-bar markers on the tread/sidewall transition area.

Just for some kind of not-necessarily-useful data points, the "Track Apps" G-guage shows a maximum of 1.08 turning right and 1.04 turning left. Braking is in the low .90s and acceleration is embarrassing. I have no idea whether or not this "meter" has any significance. but there it is.

My boss (who runs mainly road courses in his GT3) also suggested running the adjusting the rears like you mentioned to help with the understeer. What I plan to do is to adjust them 'mildly' with the rears a little more firm and just take it from there. As mentioned by some others, I want to get my driver problems resolved before suspension adjustments. My goal next time is to focus on driving and tire pressure adjustments, then mess with the konis as needed.


I just wanted to thank everyone in this thread again, a ton of great information that is both helpful and useful, thank you everyone.

-Chris

 

[Whiskey11]

The goal is to use the entire tread of the tire, but not to roll over on the sidewall.

I don't have a good photo ready, but you mark the corner of the tire, from a couple inches into the tread to down the sidewall. After a run, examine the mark. It should be worn off the tread and down to some small triangles at the edge of the sidewall that point to the boundary of the tread and sidewall. If you haven't gotten down to the triangles yet, you should bleed off some air. If the mark is worn off beyond the triangle and into the sidewall, add more air. This will change as you run. During the event the tire will warm up and the air pressure will rise. Many competitors will pump up their tires to their target pressure, or close to it, for their first run. After the tire warms up they will bleed off pressure until they hit their target pressure.

To figure out your target pressure, you use the chalk trick. Or after you get more experience and start using softer tires, you can read the tires by looking at the wear and graining.

I got you covered Jason:

Two different tires (245/45/18 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Sport Star Specs in picture 1, 265/40/18 Hankook Ventus RS3's in the second), same principle. Basically you want the tire to roll over just far enough to get to the tip of the arrow which usually indicates the end of the tread compound on the wide of the tread blocks.

You'll notice that the Dunlops have the tread pattern molded deeper than the primary tread compound. I imagine this is so the tires retain their rain worthyness even after being "used" where the RS3, known for it's lack of wet weather performance does NOT.

EDIT: To give you an idea of what those pressures are like on those tires on my car, I was told that both the Star Spec and the RS3 required a lot of pressure, like nearing 40-45 PSI to work properly... that's a load of fooey. When I ran those pressures not only did the car have zero grip they didn't wear for shit either. My Star Specs were around 32/35 PSI (yes backwards, car setup issue) and my RS3's are 35/35 PSI.

 

[Renesis07]

Oh okay! Those pictures are helpful, now I get what he meant when he was talking about the triangles, thanks!

 

[Whiskey11]

Oh okay! Those pictures are helpful, now I get what he meant when he was talking about the triangles, thanks!

No problem, it just happens that those triangles were in both pictures. I took those pictures about 2 months ago for another person asking a similar question. I can get updated ones after the RS3's have been worn in (and boy have they).

I should probably do that anyway. The RS3 picture was literally 5 runs worth which is why the flames and the VENTUS logo are still on it. I don't think they have either right now!

 

[sholzer]

Also you can be catless in *SP. You have to run cats for anything "lower" than that (ST* and *S)

 

[Renesis07]

Also you can be catless in *SP. You have to run cats for anything "lower" than that (ST* and *S)

Oh okay, so my current setup is okay for ESP? (just making sure I read that correctly).

Like I said, I was planning to switch to cats anyways, so either way it's not a huge deal. It's just good to know for future reference.

 

[Whiskey11]

Oh okay, so my current setup is okay for ESP? (just making sure I read that correctly).

Like I said, I was planning to switch to cats anyways, so either way it's not a huge deal. It's just good to know for future reference.

The only thing that looks questionable is the Charge Motion Delete Plates. It could be argued that since they were part of the 09/10 intake manifold that you could count your intake manifold as "aftermarket". I doubt anyone will care locally and maybe even Nationally since the gains are pretty small with them.

Anyway, I took some other photos:

How about 500 miles of street driving with -3.0º camber, -0.10º toe out and +7.0º Caster:

Inside shoulder blocks still look pristine! I DD at -1.5º camber, 0 toe and +7.0º caster and these have seen probably 2500 street miles driving to and from events and being lazy and not changing them after the events. These have close to 60 runs on them between local events the Midwest Divisional Championship and the National Championship and two test'n'tunes.

And of course how does -3.0º of camber deal with wear? Still have outside tire wear (left is outside, right inside)!

 

[Renesis07]

The only thing that looks questionable is the Charge Motion Delete Plates. It could be argued that since they were part of the 09/10 intake manifold that you could count your intake manifold as "aftermarket". I doubt anyone will care locally and maybe even Nationally since the gains are pretty small with them.

Yea, and if it every became an issue, it's something I can always take off. Still have all OEM stuff for my car.

 

[csamsh]

Your rear seat delete puts you into C Prepared

15.2.F says you can't change the number of seats.

That being said, I echo earlier sentiments of "no one will care until you start beating people who care"

 

[Renesis07]

Your rear seat delete puts you into C Prepared

15.2.F says you can't change the number of seats.

That being said, I echo earlier sentiments of "no one will care until you start beating people who care"

Oh wow. That sucks, I hate back seats, well mine at least

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

 

[stepqhen]

Oh wow. That sucks, I hate back seats, well mine at least

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk 2

You could legally run the Leguna Seca seat delete, but that is $$ and with the cross bars probably weighs more than the stock seats. I can't speak for anyone else in ESP in the WDCRegion, but for local events I am not going to raise too much of a stink, probably poke fun at you for being a cheater, but that would be the extent of it.

I would expect Pro Solos and National competitions to be a lot less forgiving.

 

[Renesis07]

You could legally run the Leguna Seca seat delete, but that is $$ and with the cross bars probably weighs more than the stock seats. I can't speak for anyone else in ESP in the WDCRegion, but for local events I am not going to raise too much of a stink, probably poke fun at you for being a cheater, but that would be the extent of it.

I would expect Pro Solos and National competitions to be a lot less forgiving.

I did the rear seat delete, mainly just to get rid of the OEM cloth seats in my car. Looks much nicer with the corbeaus. The 15-20 lbs I saved isn't going to make or break anything if I need to put them back in. I'm going to spend a lot of time over the winter getting more familiar with the classes and really deciding where my car best fits and prep it correctly. I'm really not looking to change my setup too much, however some small tweaks so it is 'legal' is okay with me.

 

[csamsh]

I did the rear seat delete, mainly just to get rid of the OEM cloth seats in my car. Looks much nicer with the corbeaus. The 15-20 lbs I saved isn't going to make or break anything if I need to put them back in. I'm going to spend a lot of time over the winter getting more familiar with the classes and really deciding where my car best fits and prep it correctly. I'm really not looking to change my setup too much, however some small tweaks so it is 'legal' is okay with me.

You're sitting pretty well for STU. You'd need to get a catted x-pipe, and put your seats back in, then you'd be set. Also, as I'm sure you've heard from others...you'll be needing/wanting some bigger wheels and stickier rubber soon if you get semi-serious about this.

 

[Renesis07]

You're sitting pretty well for STU. You'd need to get a catted x-pipe, and put your seats back in, then you'd be set. Also, as I'm sure you've heard from others...you'll be needing/wanting some bigger wheels and stickier rubber soon if you get semi-serious about this.

Oh I've heard that quite a bit as you can imagine lol. I do plan to get serious, but at this point I'm still focusing on getting better before my car gets better, if that makes sense. To me it's practice at this point. Next season I do plan to go much more and I plan to take this winter as time to get cats on the car (which I want to do for emissions next year anyways) and get the back seats in.

So you think STU is a good class for me to run in? Not to sound dumb, but what's different in STU over the ESP class I've been running?

 

[csamsh]

Oh I've heard that quite a bit as you can imagine lol. I do plan to get serious, but at this point I'm still focusing on getting better before my car gets better, if that makes sense. To me it's practice at this point. Next season I do plan to go much more and I plan to take this winter as time to get cats on the car (which I want to do for emissions next year anyways) and get the back seats in.

So you think STU is a good class for me to run in? Not to sound dumb, but what's different in STU over the ESP class I've been running?

Not a dumb question at all, lol. SCCA classes are their own kind of fucked up.

Anyway- STU and ESP have essentially the same suspension rules, which are more or less open. Just stupid things like aftermarket LCA's, relo brackets, diff covers, etc. are not allowed. Interior is more restricted in STU, but you can still lose the AC and radio. You can cut on fenders and stuff for ESP. The biggest difference is tires. Wheels are unrestricted in both classes, but the best STU tire you can run is 285 width and 140 treadwear. You can run any size, any compound, DOT approved tire in ESP.

STU is definitely where you want to be. See Terry's post for more info:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1838052&postcount=366
^^^the black car in that post is me

I would at least get a non-staggered tire/wheel fitment to learn on. As you sit now, you will just have a push-fest until you even out your rubber.

My personal favorites, for size, weight, cost, versatility, and rotatability. You can put up to a 295/XX/18 tire on there.
http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=278&products_id=505

There are cheaper and heavier options out there too, I've seen people run 18x10 square setups for $150 a wheel. You're looking at 25-30# there though, vs. 19. Wheels are one place you can really feel weight.

 

[Renesis07]

Not a dumb question at all, lol. SCCA classes are their own kind of fucked up.

Anyway- STU and ESP have essentially the same suspension rules, which are more or less open. Just stupid things like aftermarket LCA's, relo brackets, diff covers, etc. are not allowed. Interior is more restricted in STU, but you can still lose the AC and radio. You can cut on fenders and stuff for ESP. The biggest difference is tires. Wheels are unrestricted in both classes, but the best STU tire you can run is 285 width and 140 treadwear. You can run any size, any compound, DOT approved tire in ESP.

STU is definitely where you want to be. See Terry's post for more info:
http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1838052&postcount=366
^^^the black car in that post is me

I would at least get a non-staggered tire/wheel fitment to learn on. As you sit now, you will just have a push-fest until you even out your rubber.

My personal favorites, for size, weight, cost, versatility, and rotatability. You can put up to a 295/XX/18 tire on there.
http://www.vorshlag.com/product_info.php?cPath=278&products_id=505

There are cheaper and heavier options out there too, I've seen people run 18x10 square setups for $150 a wheel. You're looking at 25-30# there though, vs. 19. Wheels are one place you can really feel weight.

Oh okay! That post makes it much easier to understand these damn classes. So the only difference from STU and STX is tire size? These classes are definitely tricky, but I'm started to understand now with the help received in this forum.

 

[csamsh]

Oh okay! That post makes it much easier to understand these damn classes. So the only difference from STU and STX is tire size? These classes are definitely tricky, but I'm started to understand now with the help received in this forum.

STX has limited wheel size as well 9" max.

There are some differences in the ST* classes about what differentials are allowed as well, but for STX and STU RWD cars, you can run anything.

 

[Renesis07]

STX has limited wheel size as well 9" max.

There are some differences in the ST* classes about what differentials are allowed as well, but for STX and STU RWD cars, you can run anything.

Awesome! Well it sounds to me like STU should be my goal. It's close to my current setup now, and I can work on prepping my car for that class over the winter. Wheels/tires are going to set me back a little bit, but it sounds like it'll be worthwhile.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

You missed a great autocross this past weekend. The course was huge and used every square foot of real estate. Most cars were in the low 70 second range with a few aliens running in the high 60s. Plenty of wide open space to use the throttle. It was a metric shitton of fun.

Hope to see you out next year, keep an eye on the Chicago region website. towards the end of April they do the Learning Curve, which is a novice type event where they teach you basic autocross skills. Worth every penny.