Grand Am Boss vs. Camaros

[tbrock]

Are the Boss Mustangs underpowered for the GS class compared to the Austins, and Camaros? Just seems when I watch that they aren't competative?
Also just curious if they allow a watts/torque arm?

Thanks just trying to understand the class better.

 

[Roadracer350]

I was wondering the same thing..

 

[Jefro]

Whenever I was at COTA and watched it, I noticed a lot more mustangs in the field this year. I think I counted 8 mustang Boss 302R's

 

[tbrock]

I watched the Road Atlanta tonight and the camaro just drove by a Boss on one of the straights. I think the boss was 6th in class? Time for a Boss 351.

 

[HushH]

Billy Johnson and Jack Roush Jr won the Daytona race at the beginning of the year in the 61 car. But they seem to get hit with weight penalties every year and that makes it tougher for them to compete. They've always had the lower hand in braking as well which is compounded by the added weight.

Additionally, everyone says Billy's just such a damn good driver that he makes the car seem that much better and all the Boss cars end up paying for it.

I'll ask about the torque arm though. Friend of mine is an engineer on the Roush team.

 

[rockpilot]

They are hit with a restrictor in the intake which is causing overheating problems, and they recently have had to cut 500 rpms off the top. Needless to say, last year without the restrictions they absolutely dominated.

 

[Whiskey11]

Billy Johnson and Jack Roush Jr won the Daytona race at the beginning of the year in the 61 car. But they seem to get hit with weight penalties every year and that makes it tougher for them to compete. They've always had the lower hand in braking as well which is compounded by the added weight.

Additionally, everyone says Billy's just such a damn good driver that he makes the car seem that much better and all the Boss cars end up paying for it.

I'll ask about the torque arm though. Friend of mine is an engineer on the Roush team.

I'm 99% sure they can't run a torque arm, or a watts link. I think they are required to run exactly what Ford gave them and then whatever the series places as restrictions. I remember hearing that the race weight of one of the 302's in CTSCC was like 3500-3700lbs or something insane because the "assessment" of the car was that it turned with the best in the class, was at the top for acceleration and was only giving it up in the braking department.

Rehagen Racing would be one to comment on this thread since they race in the CTSCC.

It also seams that the Roush team seems to win one race, then ends up with some form of mechanical issue that takes them out of the next race (see COTA race) then follows it up with a mid pack finishing, then podium, and repeats the cycle. Watching them last year was frustrating and I was wondering how much of it was being bitch slapped with weight/restrictors and how much of it was just a car that they run 110% for too long and it wears out and they don't keep up on maintenance. My hope is that it was weight/restrictor related and not the later. It would be a bit absurd for it to be the later considering it's a race car.

 

[Kobie]

At the beginning of the year the announcers talked about the Roush cars ( if not others ) were hit with substantial penalties for upgrading the braking system on their cars. The "stock" brakes just wouldn't hold up to the abuse of that level of road racing. In fact Jack Roush Jr. wound up having a severe crash right at the end of last season that they directly related to inferior brakes. I guess they could push the car hard for only a couple laps before having to back off for a few laps for the brakes to "come back".

 

[tbrock]

They are hit with a restrictor in the intake which is causing overheating problems, and they recently have had to cut 500 rpms off the top. Needless to say, last year without the restrictions they absolutely dominated.

I think the Camaro with its 6.2L motor also runs a restrictor? Sounds like the Boss is getting some bogus rules against it.

Billy Johnson and Jack Roush Jr won the Daytona race at the beginning of the year in the 61 car. But they seem to get hit with weight penalties every year and that makes it tougher for them to compete. They've always had the lower hand in braking as well which is compounded by the added weight.

Additionally, everyone says Billy's just such a damn good driver that he makes the car seem that much better and all the Boss cars end up paying for it.

I'll ask about the torque arm though. Friend of mine is an engineer on the Roush team.

I thought they could upgrade the brakes? if not Ford needs to upgrade the Boss production car brakes with a better package.

 

[Random Asshole]

I think the Camaro with its 6.2L motor also runs a restrictor? Sounds like the Boss is getting some bogus rules against it.



I thought they could upgrade the brakes? if not Ford needs to upgrade the Boss production car brakes with a better package.

They did get better brakes, then got hit with more weight. This chassis has been around so long that they've been penalizing the hell out of it. IMO, it's had its time in the sun and it'll take the next generation to start over slowing it down again.

 

[Philostang]

Didn't some of the Mustang drivers stage a protest last year over the excessive restrictions they were getting hit with? Or was that a different series?

 

[Whiskey11]

Didn't some of the Mustang drivers stage a protest last year over the excessive restrictions they were getting hit with? Or was that a different series?

That was the Pirelli World Challenge but yes. They were blowing motors at a rate of a motor per event due to an extremely small restrictor plate which was causing the engine to overheat and then eventually fail. The difference between PWC and CTSCC is that the Boss 302R is the baseline car (others are compared to it) in PWC where it isn't in CTSCC. Also, no Boss 302R finished above 10th in qualifying for the race where they stepped out IIRC.

 

[Rehagen Racing]

There is a lot of "half truths" in this thread. I'd rather not get too far into it, but just to clear up a few things.

Grand-Am does require us to run a restrictor. We also are forced to run additional weight in the car. It's all in an "effort to make the cars even".

Our cars are equipped with a 14" Brembo race kit in their "as delivered form", but may upgrade to a 15" race kit from Brembo. Any teams that choose to run the 15" brakes, MUST run the BOSCH ABS system and not the Ford system.

In SCCA World Challenge, we are also required to run a restrictor in order to keep things competitive. At Mid-Ohio last year the restrictors caused a big issue, since we were not allowed to retune the car for the smaller inlet. The cars ran so hot there was a plethora of problems. Everything from a handful of blown motors, to major overheating, to warped heads, to blown header gaskets. There was supposedly a driver that had his shoes melt to the bottom of the car.
In an effort to show SCCA that there was an issue that needed to be addressed, all of the Mustang teams chose to pull their cars off the track. They spent the entire race on pit lane. It's unfortunate for everyone involved (racers, SCCA, Mid-Ohio, and THE FANS) and hopefully it never happens again.


Back to the route question though.... The Camaro is HEAVY! If both cars were allowed to run unrestricted and unpenalized, I believe the Mustang would easily beat the Camaro. Thankfully Ford Racing gives the road race side of the Mustang tremendous support and that's what keeps us ahead.

 

[tbrock]

There is a lot of "half truths" in this thread. I'd rather not get too far into it, but just to clear up a few things.

Grand-Am does require us to run a restrictor. We also are forced to run additional weight in the car. It's all in an "effort to make the cars even".

Our cars are equipped with a 14" Brembo race kit in their "as delivered form", but may upgrade to a 15" race kit from Brembo. Any teams that choose to run the 15" brakes, MUST run the BOSCH ABS system and not the Ford system.

In SCCA World Challenge, we are also required to run a restrictor in order to keep things competitive. At Mid-Ohio last year the restrictors caused a big issue, since we were not allowed to retune the car for the smaller inlet. The cars ran so hot there was a plethora of problems. Everything from a handful of blown motors, to major overheating, to warped heads, to blown header gaskets. There was supposedly a driver that had his shoes melt to the bottom of the car.
In an effort to show SCCA that there was an issue that needed to be addressed, all of the Mustang teams chose to pull their cars off the track. They spent the entire race on pit lane. It's unfortunate for everyone involved (racers, SCCA, Mid-Ohio, and THE FANS) and hopefully it never happens again.


Back to the route question though.... The Camaro is HEAVY! If both cars were allowed to run unrestricted and unpenalized, I believe the Mustang would easily beat the Camaro. Thankfully Ford Racing gives the road race side of the Mustang tremendous support and that's what keeps us ahead.

Thanks for the info! and yes I am glad Ford Racing is supporting the Mustang.

 

[Roadracer350]

Where are they putting the restrictors at? Is it in the intake tube or between the intake and throttle body?

 

[Rehagen Racing]

The inlet restrictor goes into the front of the TB. It just slips in and has a small flange on it.

 

[ArizonaGT]

I'm not sure why any of the Mustang guys even show up in World Challenge. $10K+ per weekend out the window, and you already know you're not going to be competitive before you even unload the car. But I guess that's what's necessary in WC Vision's eyes to attract other manufacturers to the series and make their cars "competitive" by restricting the base car to death.

Grand Am almost seems cyclical with the restrictions they place. I'm surprised the Astons didn't get a healthy dose of restrictions for this season.

Anyways just my $0.02 from the armchair...

 

[Mountain]

If I remember correctly, did not the BOSS 302R run a smaller restrictor for at least most of the 2011 season (I think the Mustangs and the M3's were too far ahead of the rest of cars and got a smaller restictor)? I remember that the Mustangs all did pretty well that season.

It seemed the BOSS cars were "the car to get" for 2012 based on their performance in 2011. At the beginning of 2012, I noticed a ton of BOSS 302R cars; However, from what I noticed, the field of Mustangs dwindled very quickly after the first few races and the cars just did not seem as potent as before.

 

[Rehagen Racing]

If I remember correctly, did not the BOSS 302R run a smaller restrictor for at least most of the 2011 season (I think the Mustangs and the M3's were too far ahead of the rest of cars and got a smaller restictor)? I remember that the Mustangs all did pretty well that season.

It seemed the BOSS cars were "the car to get" for 2012 based on their performance in 2011. At the beginning of 2012, I noticed a ton of BOSS 302R cars; However, from what I noticed, the field of Mustangs dwindled very quickly after the first few races and the cars just did not seem as potent as before.

You're correct. If the Mustang and M3 were allowed to run wide open, no one else in class would be close. Most of the tracks would favor the Mustang as well, but there's no denying the M can run with the S197.

 

[ford20]

Is there more than one restrictor that you guys have to run with? If not how does. The intake restrictor cause the car to overheat? Not trying to be a dick I'm just curious is all.