Koni sports in conjunction with Boss 302 springs?

kcbrown

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There is so much wrong or half wrong spring and damping information in this thread I don’t even know where to start.

Readers BEWARE!:thumb2:

If there is, then please point it out. I don't want there to be any errors in this thread, especially on my part. If there's something I'm not understanding, I want to know about it so that I can correct it.
 

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:crazy: Kindly explain how does one adjust ride height with coilover if the lower spring perch doesn't have any effect on the ride height...

The location of the lower spring perch shouldn't have any effect on the ride height if the location of the upper spring perch relative to the strut mount is the same between the two.

The reason is that the car's weight will compress the spring to the same length in both cases, as that is based on the amount of weight, the starting length of the spring, and the spring rate.

Moving the lower spring perch on the strut without changing anything else only means that the initial spring length after pre-compression by the strut is a little longer than it was before (because by moving the lower perch without moving the upper perch, you change the amount of pre-compression), but that doesn't change the spring length you get after compression from the weight of the car. The sole exception to that is if the length of the spring after pre-compression is less than it would be if it were compressed by the weight of the car, which means that the strut assembly would be in full extension with the full weight of the car on it at that point.

The bottom line is that unless the distance from the top of the spring to the strut mount has increased, you won't get a lowering effect from the strut unless the strut is fully extended with the full weight of the car on it, something that shouldn't be the case.
 

kcbrown

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Sorry...but...you're...uh...wrong.

Treat the loaded strut assembly as two line segments, A and B.

Ride height=A+B

A=distance from strut mounting surface to lower spring perch, at ride height
B=distance from strut-knuckle bolt hole to lower spring perch (this is what Kelly has measured)

We agree that A will not change from strut to strut, assuming the spring is the same in all cases, and that the upper spring perch is the same in all cases.

However, as Kelly has shown, if you reduce the length of segment B (in this case, about .25") then ride height will lower by the amount it's reduced. This is how coilovers work.

Ahh. I follow. The comparison to coilovers clears that right up. Makes perfect sense. Thanks!
 

kcbrown

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One other thing of note: I find the track package ride to be sufficiently firm that I'm not really interested in anything firmer. The firmness feels about the same front and rear, and given the wildly different spring rate versus sprung weight in the front versus the rear, I have to conclude that the compression in the front struts must be significantly higher than in the rear shocks. That implies that going with lowering springs that will substantially change the rate/weight balance will require going with struts and shocks with compression damping that takes that reversal into account.

This implies that if Koni Sports are balanced under the assumption of greater spring rate in front than in the rear, and if I went with Koni Sports but either kept the stock springs or went with Boss 302 springs, the end result would be too little compression in the front and too much compression in the rear, with the result being that the car's behavior over the bumps would no longer feel balanced front to rear. It means that if I stick with a stock-like spring setup as regards the front versus rear spring rates, I'm likely to be better off picking up OEM Boss 302 dampers, as those will be valved to suit the spring rates found on the OEM cars. Alternatively, I could get the Konis revalved to account for the spring rate differences. But now we're right back to my opening question.

Given all that, it may be simpler for me to just go with FRPP "P" springs and Koni Sports, but I'm concerned about the ride from that being too harsh, given that I don't really want a firmer ride than I've already got. I'm also concerned about the geometry changes in the rear as well as changing the handling balance of the car. With the front rates now being stiffer than the rear rates, I would expect a lot more understeer at the steady-state limit with the stock sway bars, which means changing the sway bars as well (going with a much stiffer bar in the rear and/or less stiffness out front). I dunno -- it seems to me there would be a lot of changes to a lot of things required to get the car back to handling as well as it does stock.

I guess most of this is moot until I drive the car in stock form on the track to see just how it handles there.
 
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kcbrown

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Here's two threads from Boss owners who swapped in an FRPP Handling kit and seemed very pleased over the factory Boss handling:

http://bossmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=2041.0

http://bossmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=1769.0

I've seen other reports from Boss owners using different packages with similar results.


Thanks.

Seems the FRPP handling kit results in a stiffer than the stock Boss ride, though, which is discouraging (the setting of 5 in the below refers to is one setting away from full soft):

http://bossmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=2041.msg36829#msg36829 said:
For those on the fence with the P springs I had a 200+ mile drive each way to and from LS and with the dampers set on 5 the ride was comfortable but firm. While not significantly harsher than stock you do feel more of the little bumps. It is not tiresome for me and I have no issues driving it like this. My car is not a DD so for those of you DD your Bosses of rough roads you'll want to think about this. For those of you tracking your cars I think this is a nice step up from the stock suspension.
 
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Department Of Boost

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If there is, then please point it out. I don't want there to be any errors in this thread, especially on my part. If there's something I'm not understanding, I want to know about it so that I can correct it.

No problem, PayPal me $150 ($75/hr) and I will correct everything wrong in this tread and give you a good working understanding of how springs/rates really work and what their correlation is with high and low speed damping. I can also clear up the mish mash of bad spring preload/ride height information also.

Sorry but I don’t have the time or inclination to write for 2+ hours about suspension basics when I could be out in the shop making $75-150/hr actually working on the pile of dampers I have collecting.
 

kcbrown

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No problem, PayPal me $150 ($75/hr) and I will correct everything wrong in this tread and give you a good working understanding of how springs/rates really work and what their correlation is with high and low speed damping. I can also clear up the mish mash of bad spring preload/ride height information also.

Sorry but I don’t have the time or inclination to write for 2+ hours about suspension basics when I could be out in the shop making $75-150/hr actually working on the pile of dampers I have collecting.

Then would you mind taking a few minutes to call out what I got wrong or, if it outnumbers what I got right, then point out what I got right (whichever is more efficient)? I can then go investigate that which I got wrong on my own.
 

rebus

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Ford wouldn't have used a stiffer spring in the rear because they thought people would sit in the rear seat, and that they may haul used bricks in the trunk?
 

kcbrown

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Hmm...however, what I'm reading also seems to indicate that the compression setting of the damper primarily controls unsprung weight, and since the amount of weight being controlled is not changing a whole lot, the fact that the spring balance is changing when you go from stock springs to aftermarket springs may not matter much in the end (particularly since the spring rates aren't changing drastically in the rear, at least. In the front, they're changing by around 33% when you go from the Boss 302 rate to, e.g., the Steeda Sport rate, but that may be well within the envelope of a proper compression rate for the fronts).

So I guess the only way to really know is to try it, and given the very inexpensive cost of the Boss 302 springs, I may go that way just to experiment if nothing else.
 

SCreemer

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Given all that, it may be simpler for me to just go with FRPP "P" springs and Koni Sports, but I'm concerned about the ride from that being too harsh, given that I don't really want a firmer ride than I've already got. I'm also concerned about the geometry changes in the rear as well as changing the handling balance of the car. With the front rates now being stiffer than the rear rates, I would expect a lot more understeer at the steady-state limit with the stock sway bars, which means changing the sway bars as well (going with a much stiffer bar in the rear and/or less stiffness out front). I dunno -- it seems to me there would be a lot of changes to a lot of things required to get the car back to handling as well as it does stock.

I have "P" springs, Koni yellow adjustables, and 2010 GT-500 staggered tires/rims on my 2011GT (Brembo car), and here are my observations:

I was worried too about the ride being too harsh, but with the Koni's set on full soft I could hardly notice the difference from stock. IMHO the ride is better than stock.

I didn't notice any increase in understeer either, even with the staggered tire combo. This surprised me!

I have not corrected for the geometry change with regard to pinion angle, as most have indicated that the modest 1" drop isn't going to throw that off a whole lot.

Handling is hands-down better than stock. Keep in mind these shocks/struts are adjustable and you can tweak the settings easily to change the handling characteristics to what you like.

It goes without saying that my observations are totally subjective. I haven't run laps stock then changed parts and re-run laps to measure the differences. I merely followed the many suggestions made by those on here who do run competitively, and I'm pleased with the combo I have now. I am planning to install GT-500 RLCA's and an adjustable panhard bar to complete my modifications, but after that I'm done.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do...

Paul
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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The length of the strut has a lot to do with the ride height you should run, and when the strut/shock length is the same as stock, any amount you lower the car (via "oem style" lowering springs) will reduce the shock travel in the bump direction by that much.


Just because it looks good doesn't mean it rides well. The lowered car on the right was a "bumpstop killer"!

Most people who lower their cars know so little about handling or driving that they don't know any better, then tell everyone on the internet how badass their cars handle, and the "group think" gets so jacked up that everyone has slammed cars pogo'ing around on the bump stops. Hella tight!

It is such a common mistake that I get tired of writing about it, year after year. Someone wants their car lowered, they don't want to spend any money, so they just slap some $200 lowering springs on and go. Some are smart enough to complain when their car slams into the bump stops all the damned time. Then these folks might even put something like an "adjustable" shock on but that is the same length as stock, and then still slam the bump stops all the time.

DSC_8825-M.jpg


You HAVE TO SHORTEN THE STRUT length to gain any usable bump travel on a lowered car. There are VERY few OEM style struts that are shorter than stock, and we sell one of them in our Bilstein/Vorshlag street pro kit, with many happy customers. It is a $1500 set-up with monotube inverted struts, lowering springs and our adjustable camber plates, with excellent ride and a choice of lowering springs, all 100% complete, with the springs and plates pre-installed and ready to bolt on.

For competition use, if you want good handling performance you shouldn't be looking at twin tube shocks made for OEM springs. Period. Adjustable monotube coilovers with springs and plates is going to run you $3000-up, and that scares away the timid. But we stay pretty busy getting customers out of the "bumpstop game", mostly folks who have been there and are tired of that. The strut lengths are usually 2-3 inches shorter than stock, because we lower these jacked up cars 2-3 inches from stock ride heights - yet still have plenty of bump and rebound travel.

DSC_7064a-M.jpg


Beware what you read on the internets. Very few people who have the knowledge to explain what you really need in a competition type suspension that has adequate stroke will donate their time to sharing that online.
 

kcbrown

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The length of the strut has a lot to do with the ride height you should run, and when the strut/shock length is the same as stock, any amount you lower the car (via "oem style" lowering springs) will reduce the shock travel in the bump direction by that much.

...

You HAVE TO SHORTEN THE STRUT length to gain any usable bump travel on a lowered car. There are VERY few OEM style struts that are shorter than stock, and we sell one of them in our Bilstein/Vorshlag street pro kit, with many happy customers. It is a $1500 set-up with monotube inverted struts, lowering springs and our adjustable camber plates, with excellent ride and a choice of lowering springs, all 100% complete, with the springs and plates pre-installed and ready to bolt on.

This just adds justification for me not being interested in lowering the car by a whole lot. My preference would, frankly, be 3/4 of an inch front and rear, and no more.

I know of no springs that reduce the car height by so little, except perhaps the Boss 302 front springs combined with the Brembo50 springs in the rear.


The problem is this: reduction of the suspension travel must, of necessity, increase the harshness of the ride over larger bumps, because the amount of distance that is available to decelerate the vertical motion of the car is now reduced, which means a larger deceleration must be used.

So my question is: do the coilover setups you refer to have less suspension travel than the stock suspension? My guess is that they do, and that it is reduced by 2-3 inches. And since I don't really want the ride of my car to be much harsher over larger surface variations than it already is, my guess is that the coilover setup will not meet my requirements. Then there's the problem of steep driveways, speed bumps, and all the other fun things that you have to deal with in a daily driver.
 
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csamsh

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This just adds justification for me not being interested in lowering the car by a whole lot. My preference would, frankly, be 3/4 of an inch front and rear, and no more.

I know of no springs that reduce the car height by so little, except perhaps the Boss 302 front springs combined with the Brembo50 springs in the rear.


The problem is this: reduction of the suspension travel must, of necessity, increase the harshness of the ride over larger bumps, because the amount of distance that is available to decelerate the vertical motion of the car is now reduced, which means a larger deceleration must be used.

So my question is: do the coilover setups you refer to have less suspension travel than the stock suspension? My guess is that they do, and that it is reduced by 2-3 inches. And since I don't really want the ride of my car to be much harsher over larger surface variations than it already is, my guess is that the coilover setup will not meet my requirements. Then there's the problem of steep driveways, speed bumps, and all the other fun things that you have to deal with in a daily driver.

no....your travel isn't reduced. The damper bodies are shortened. This preserves your travel.
 

kcbrown

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no....your travel isn't reduced. The damper bodies are shortened. This preserves your travel.

But we're now comparing coilovers to the stock suspension.

The coilovers retain the same suspension travel as the stock suspension? That would mean the spring lengths are the same, right (unless, that is, the shock travel is the limiting factor on the stock suspension)?

If the suspension travel is the same but the car is lowered, don't you have to worry about the tire impacting the wheel well at full compression?
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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But we're now comparing coilovers to the stock suspension.

The coilovers retain the same suspension travel as the stock suspension? That would mean the spring lengths are the same, right (unless, that is, the shock travel is the limiting factor on the stock suspension)?

If the suspension travel is the same but the car is lowered, don't you have to worry about the tire impacting the wheel well at full compression?
When you shorten the strut you are trying to maximize total suspension travel at a new, lowered ride height. But yes, there is going to be less total suspension travel compared to stock. It is just part of the math. So we tend to increase the spring rates to compensate, so that the suspension doesn't need or use 6 or 8 inches of total suspension travel, like the stock set-up.


Left: OEM spring rates (front and rear) on a 2013 GT. Right: The M-5300-P springs

When compared to the SUPER soft stock spring rates, this added spring rate is a double win... because the OEM stuff is so tall and so soft that they allow for LOTS of body roll, pitch, heave, and dive under performance driving. Most lowering springs are trying to do the same thing but with progressive spring rates that are still super soft in most conditions but "stiffen up" near coil bind. Makes for funky handling, in my opinion, and they still run out of suspension travel.

DSC05126-X2-M.jpg

^^ stock spring rates are soft, and under heavy braking you see this a lot ^^

We tend to start with TRIPLING the front spring rates on most McStrut cars, and on the S197 we start with 450 #/in as the softest starting springs for an AST or MCS single adjustable monotube. Lowering springs are like 15-30-60% stiffer than stock, not 350% stiffer. But these are REAL shocks we are using, big piston monotubes, and because they aren't pre-WWII technology itsy-bitsy piston diameter twin tube shocks they can work properly with the added spring rate and still have a nice ride.

_DSC8159-M.jpg

This Mustang on AST 4150s and 550#/in front springs is under heavy braking. With 18x11" wheels and 315mm race tires

There is no cheap solution to properly lowering a Mustang. There isn't a good option for "only 3/4" lower than stock" springs, unless you go with the some other super soft stock set-up. Which won't make an appreciable handling difference, because you are neither lowering the CG by an significant amount nor firming up the spring rates to lesson pitch/roll/heave.

DSC_6157-M.jpg

Another AST 4150 equipped car, on 450#/in front and 175 #/in rear rates, with 18x10" wheels and 275mm tires

Some folks think if they do enough research they will find the good, cheap answer. It isn't there, no matter hard you look. Mustangs have pretty piss poor suspension set-ups from the factory, and it takes a bit of coin to fix, but these cars CAN handle much better and still ride very well, if you make the right choices and use your budget wisely.

Cheers,
 
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csamsh

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Some folks think if they do enough research they will find the good, cheap answer. It isn't there, no matter hard you look. Mustangs have pretty piss poor suspension set-ups from the factory, and it takes a bit of coin to fix, but these cars CAN handle much better and still ride very well, if you make the right choices and use your budget wisely.

Cheers,

The black car above is mine, and I was one of the people "fed up with the bumpstops." I previously ran on some combination of Konis and Eibachs, and it was great until any sort of transitional load got applied, and then it understeered off into oblivion. I had thought I could "save some money and just go with the Koni Yellows" ....but I was WRONG. Read my build thread for more info. I managed to sell off my old setup though and recoup some losses.

Listen to the people who know and who are backed by data. They spent a lot of time and money to acquire said knowledge and data.
 

Sam Strano

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Getting back to some more basic stuff here.

First, don't waste your money on Boss springs. If you want to make a spring change that makes a difference, make a spring change that makes a difference. One of the things I cannot stand about the 5.0 cars in general is how on every "performance" version the rear springs are actually stiffer than the fronts. Lots of reasons from stability to the hobby-horse rocking you can get to the fact the rear is basically a pickup and running stiff rear springs in a pickup that isn't heavy causes??????? the rear to not act as well as it should.

Koni's... they rock and are the best value in a damper that doesn't cost $1500 or a lot more per set. I've had a lot of shocks over the years, including some high dollar stuff. Tested a lot of things. Had one of the shocks mentioned previously and tried them on two Mustangs... and in both cases went back to the Koni's for durability reasons. I got the others to work well, when I got them valved to basically match the Koni's. Lots of debate will come I'm sure (call it a hunch), but when you get most everyone who has them liking them, and the fact they can win competitions against much more costly shocks, it's hard to argue with results. Can you do better? Sure, they are after all $700 a set, but it'll be tough and spending more money doesn't make it automatically happen and often you end up far worse off. A Koni Sport will do the job 99% of people need 95% as well as anything. This is where I tell you that of the things I've won Nationally, only one of my championships wasn't on a set of Koni Sports. That is over a lot of different cars.

Right now I'm testing a set of shocks that are almost $5k on my Corvette. So far, they feel nice, but in running the car back to back with two others I setup the same as my car before... there is no increase in speed (testing same day, same course and twice back to back runs). And I'm not bad at this, having tested tires for Kumho and Hoosier as an example. I dialed the shocks in to what I felt was the most "Koni like", then had them dyno'ed and ran them through the bump and rebound range to see what matched, since I know what I had worked. I only missed the front rear bump setting by one click, pretty much nailed the rest vs. the Koni's.. by feel. I only did this to get a starting point that was a known commodity, what settings I end up with only matters on what makes the car faster and easier to drive. But I had already put my Koni's at the point that was best for those needs for me so I'd be an idiot to not have that baseline.

I don't know what it is you are seeking exactly, it's hard to tell online and such. If it's just better damping control and you like the balance of the car and don't mind the amount of roll and pitch then just to the dampers. If you want more roll and pitch control well you need springs that are stiffer in front more than the rear. I won't go nearly as far to say you need to at minimum triple the rates and don't think most others would agree with that. Most springs and most coil-overs are not 450+ in front, and this car doesn't have a crappy camber curve (saying that you must triple the rates on any McPherson strut car is a generalization based on a very poor camber curve, and not all strut cars have that issue). I know that folks have their reasons and preferences. I haven't found the need for that much rate, especially on a street car, but also on autox cars, with sticky Hoosier's).

Bottom line, horses for courses. And in this case the course = what you are trying to get as a result.
 
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kcbrown

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When you shorten the strut you are trying to maximize total suspension travel at a new, lowered ride height. But yes, there is going to be less total suspension travel compared to stock. It is just part of the math.

Except that it has other implications, namely that the vertical acceleration forces you'll be feeling must be higher when traversing larger pavement variations. Yes, as long as the pavement variation magnitude remains constrained below some certain threshold, you can retain the same ride quality, but once you go beyond that, the ride must become harsher. And the less suspension travel you have, the smaller that magnitude will be.

An example is in order. Consider driving over the raised pavement markers that divide lanes on the highway. Whether your car is properly lowered or has stock suspension travel, I expect that both can be made to handle those without feeling substantially different from each other, simply by setting the compression in the dampers appropriately. That's because the pavement variation magnitude is relatively low in that instance.

But now consider driving over a speed bump. Suddenly, the properly lowered car is going to handle that very differently than the car with the stock suspension travel, because the amount of suspension movement required will either come very close to the amount the lowered car can handle or will exceed it, while the car with stock suspension travel may be able to handle it.


A daily driver has to be able to handle all the pavement variations it may come across while providing acceptable ride comfort under those conditions.


So we tend to increase the spring rates to compensate, so that the suspension doesn't need or use 6 or 8 inches of total suspension travel, like the stock set-up.
But the point here is that how much you need depends on what you're driving over. You can't lower the car without sacrificing something, no matter how well you do it.


There is no cheap solution to properly lowering a Mustang. There isn't a good option for "only 3/4" lower than stock" springs, unless you go with the some other super soft stock set-up. Which won't make an appreciable handling difference, because you are neither lowering the CG by an significant amount nor firming up the spring rates to lesson pitch/roll/heave.
I guess it all depends on what you mean by "significant amount". Those Boss 302 owners who went with the P springs seem to think the improvements were more than insignificant based on their experiences on the track. I'm sure a good coilover setup would be even better, but then you run into the streetability issues I mentioned previously.


Some folks think if they do enough research they will find the good, cheap answer. It isn't there, no matter hard you look. Mustangs have pretty piss poor suspension set-ups from the factory, and it takes a bit of coin to fix, but these cars CAN handle much better and still ride very well, if you make the right choices and use your budget wisely.
I'm not at all attempting to cheap out here. I spent nearly $40k for the car. I can afford a few thousand for a suspension setup as long as I only have to buy it once. But I have certain requirements that I suspect even the best coilover setups will be unable to meet. And if they can't meet them, then I may as well get the look I'm after (the stock suspension looks too much like an SUV's, and most lowering springs lower the suspension too much for my liking, hence the 3/4" drop I mentioned) and as much of an improvement in handling as I can get within the limits of my other requirements while spending the least amount of money I can on it.


Unfortunately, when it comes to the suspension modifications we're discussing here, the only way to determine how well something will work is to experience it firsthand, because ride quality is a purely subjective thing, as is the driving experience itself. That means experimentation, and that means starting off inexpensively while buying components that have the widest possible applicability (e.g., Koni Sports).

I don't intend to make any changes at all until I've driven the car in stock form (except for 285/35-19 street tires on 19" Forgestar F14 wheels, stainless brake lines, Boss 302 brake ducting kit, Castrol SRF fluid, and Stoptech pads) on the track two or three times. It's the only way I'll be able to determine for myself what I really want out of the car on the track. But as it is first and foremost a daily driver here in Silicon Valley where they can't even figure out how to lay down smooth concrete for brand new freeways (for those of you who live in the area, I'm talking about 280 near and south of 85), I will be limiting my changes with that in mind. And given that it's been something like 15 years or so since I've been on the track, I'm going to be taking this slow.


EDIT: and it turns out that the cost of those Boss 302 springs isn't $160, it's $80 for all 4 corners.
 
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