Let's talk heat extractors and IATs

[DesertStang06]

I posted a while back about some hands on with a few blowers.

While I made up my mind on said issue.

There is a more immediate one that has kept me from going FI in any concern.


Today is a prime example
0900
Weather channel said it was 72
Bank said 83
In car thermometer I added read 99.
Point being it's hot over here.

On a cool evening, I can NEVER get lower than about 12 degrees above.

Static IATs at idle, no a.c., just crawling up to operating temp.

Has peaked at 168 degrees.

And people have suggested I add boost? (Not anyone here on the forum)

Now let's talk culprits.

JLT Series 3 CAI.
I keep looking at that "shield"...it's a joke.

Stainless Steel headers...they radiate heat.

I haven't installed it yet. But I have the 2010-2014 GT 500 heat extractor.
I'm hoping that will vent at least a few degrees.

I was curious how my measurement looks.

From the tip of the hood to where the bottom of the extractor.
19.5
Measuring that same 19.5 with the hood up, places the actual vents, directly above my CAI tube. Between the radiator shroud and TB.

Seeing as the fans suck air, and heat rises, this should be optimal??

As for the intake itself.
I had thought of plumbing some dryer hose (something similar) from the lower grille, to the CAI area.
Hoping some cooler air could offset the stagnant heat.
Granted it would only work while moving.


I'm hoping to have a good learn from you guy's, as my meds are in full swing and my abstract thought processing is faltering.

So how do these two sound?

Also any other tips for lowering those IATs?

If I can't keep cool NA, I'll never slap a heat box to it.

So greater minds than I, a little help?

 

[redfirepearlgt]

What year and make of Mustang? I can only give you help on 2011+ TVS setups. We saw 90's with RH above 75% and some stupid DA every TT Friday in August. I made passes andthe IAT2 temps stayed below 145 in that heat thanks to a nice big H.E.

A dual Fan H.E. will benefit a TVS setup. I good dual or triple pass unit with 10" or 11" fans will help. A larger HE coolant (degas) tank also helps and can be packed with ice if need be on race night. IF El Paso never sees Air temps below 32 F, you could run pure distilled water which will generate max heat removal. A larger volume recirc pump may also help.

IF the car is a 3V 05-09 D.O.B. has an intercooler and a big H.E. (if I recall) that will pull additional heat out of IAT2 temps from what I have read about it. Nice unit and they are in your state (like that makes them next door right?LOL Sorry)

On the 11+ cars I can speak first hand that on the topic of CAI the factory air box flows very nicely and will help keep IAT temps down during in town driving unlike a JLT 123 though it may help flow a little more air and add a few HP (13 on my app was observed before and after dyno comparison on same dyno). But you may not see that due to the hotter climate overall. Hard to say unless you try it. In fact a 2.3L TVS can run down to a 79mm pulley on the factory air box but below that the factory box is a hindrance I.A.W. VMP Performance who I use.



Plenty of big HP cars in TX with SC's so I would not rule it out.

 

[DesertStang06]

While I can't argue the wonders of a good fan/HE
The base problem persists.
I run hot as all get out as it is.

I'm mock fitting my hose as we speak, it's hot out, perfect time to see any improvements

 

[redfirepearlgt]

Just may want to be cautious of vapor lock after a car wash once you put the heat extractor in. It's been known to happen with open element CAI's even with the smaller 13,14 GT heat extractors. JLT even sends an insert to minimize the issue. Being in ElPaso you won't have to worry about it as much with lower rain average, but just keep it in mind when washing the car, or getting caught in a quick rain squall.

Hope it all works out.

 

[DesertStang06]

I am just overly leary of cutting my hood.
It's been next to the bed since early August.

Update, my little dryer duct dropped cruising temps 5 degrees at 60
Not much better below 50.
But it's a step.
So today was 93, my IATs cruising were 98
Without my tube 103 avg.

I've always cleaned my engine with a rubber band and plastic bag over my filter. No problems yet. And I spray the bay with some pressure.
I'll be grabbing the intake "shield"
My buddies with bikes swear by them.
So money well spent for peace of mind.

Unless the extractor literally pushes the rain away like I've heard from others who installed them.
That'd be nice.

 

[Pentalab]

IF El Paso never sees Air temps below 32 F, you could run pure distilled water which will generate max heat removal. A larger volume recirc pump may also help.


On the 11+ cars I can speak first hand that on the topic of CAI the factory air box flows very nicely and will help keep IAT temps down during in town driving unlike a JLT 123 though it may help flow a little more air and add a few HP (13 on my app was observed before and after dyno comparison on same dyno). But you may not see that due to the hotter climate overall. Hard to say unless you try it. In fact a 2.3L TVS can run down to a 79mm pulley on the factory air box but below that the factory box is a hindrance I.A.W. VMP Performance who I use.

If you use pure distilled water in the HE /IC loop, add the correct amount of redline water wetter. Water wetter works superb with 100% distilled water....but effectiveness drops like a rock once any amount of glycol is tossed into the mix. You will need the water wetter anyway, for it's anti corrosion and anti electrolysis properties, so you don't eat the aluminum IC /HE etc.

Factory airbox on the 05-09 cars doesn't flow too good, it's not a good airbox if a blower used. The 2010 airbox flows a lot more, like 800 cfm with oem panel filter....and 976 cfm if a K+N filter used. ( dunno about K+N's claims, but you can hear the air whistle through there).

The 11-14 airbox flows a little less, 745 cfm with oem filter..and 909 cfm with the K+N.

Roush uses the oem airbox on it's 575 hp blower kit, but switches to the open air filter cone on both it's 625 + 675 kits. ( the 675 kit gets the 80mm pulley for the TVS-2300, the other 2 kits get the 85mm pulley.)

The usual deal is they (roush / K bell) calculate total cfm requirements based on 1.5 cfm per crank hp. 575 x 1.5 = 862 cfm. Stock airbox will work, barely, and only with a K+N.

625 x 1.5 = 938 cfm. Stock airbox + K+N won't work, or is marginal at upper rpm range.

675 x 1.5 = 1013 cfm. Open air cone filter required.


Interesting to note, on the 2010 roush stage 3 / roush 540 H cars (built eng), they were rated at 540 crank hp (deal was they had to be rated at less than the 550 crank hp of the GT-500), they actually all typ put out 518-525RWHP on the dyno (588- 597 crank hp). When VMP retuned those cars (tune only, no other mods), the tq/hp went way up across the entire rpm range...but only a tiny improvement at the very top rpm range (last 500 rpm). The stock 2010 airbox runs out of air at the very top end.

I can't see how an oem 11-14 airbox will work with a 79mm pulley, it would gag at the upper rpm range. It would be fine in the low + midrange.

 

[morrowstang95]

What year and make of Mustang? I can only give you help on 2011+ TVS setups. We saw 90's with RH above 75% and some stupid DA every TT Friday in August. I made passes andthe IAT2 temps stayed below 145 in that heat thanks to a nice big H.E.

A dual Fan H.E. will benefit a TVS setup. I good dual or triple pass unit with 10" or 11" fans will help. A larger HE coolant (degas) tank also helps and can be packed with ice if need be on race night. IF El Paso never sees Air temps below 32 F, you could run pure distilled water which will generate max heat removal. A larger volume recirc pump may also help.

IF the car is a 3V 05-09 D.O.B. has an intercooler and a big H.E. (if I recall) that will pull additional heat out of IAT2 temps from what I have read about it. Nice unit and they are in your state (like that makes them next door right?LOL Sorry)

On the 11+ cars I can speak first hand that on the topic of CAI the factory air box flows very nicely and will help keep IAT temps down during in town driving unlike a JLT 123 though it may help flow a little more air and add a few HP (13 on my app was observed before and after dyno comparison on same dyno). But you may not see that due to the hotter climate overall. Hard to say unless you try it. In fact a 2.3L TVS can run down to a 79mm pulley on the factory air box but below that the factory box is a hindrance I.A.W. VMP Performance who I use.



Plenty of big HP cars in TX with SC's so I would not rule it out.

DOB is actually in Michigan. But a great guy to ask these questions to.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

^^^ No crap! I guess I saw the star on the logo and thought Texas Ranger which led me to assume Texas... ROL! Man it sux getting older.

 

[redfirepearlgt]

[QUOTEI can't see how an oem 11-14 airbox will work with a 79mm pulley, it would gag at the upper rpm range. It would be fine in the low + midrange.[/QUOTE]

Speak to Justin at VMP tuning. He originally suggested a 79mm on my 13 that had the Roush phase 1 575 package. I went with the 82mm and the car produced 568/522 with his tune and no other mods on a closed air intake. Car ran 12.38 best on the Roush package untainted. Went 11.49 on his tune and the 82mm. Those guys are fricking miracle workers. And their service before and after the sale is stellar to say the very least. And to be fair, while I have not dealt with DOB on a sales level, I see their efforts to help people learn with the articles and feedback here and put them in that same class service level on first impression.

I am proudly in the process of De-Roushing what few ROUSH products are on the car now. The GT500 exhaust and OR mid pipe arrive today. Can't wait to get rid of that raspy tone and have a deeper muscle car tone to the car again. I only bought the Roush axle back because it was the only exhaust I could find that would change up the tone outside without massive drone inside. I should have gone with the GT500 exhaust then. My dream is to purchase the VMP 2300 housing and do a swap over this winter. Either that or I am going to swap the whole head unit and sell the Roush unit to offset some of the outgoing cash flow in doing so. I figure used its worth 1500-2000 where as the casing by itself is only worth being used for target practice.

One of these days I may just have to do a write up on the transition from stock 13 manual to PD to 14 auto PD.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I posted a while back about some hands on with a few blowers.

While I made up my mind on said issue.

There is a more immediate one that has kept me from going FI in any concern.


Today is a prime example
0900
Weather channel said it was 72
Bank said 83
In car thermometer I added read 99.
Point being it's hot over here.

On a cool evening, I can NEVER get lower than about 12 degrees above.

Static IATs at idle, no a.c., just crawling up to operating temp.

Has peaked at 168 degrees.

And people have suggested I add boost? (Not anyone here on the forum)

Now let's talk culprits.

JLT Series 3 CAI.
I keep looking at that "shield"...it's a joke.

Stainless Steel headers...they radiate heat.

I haven't installed it yet. But I have the 2010-2014 GT 500 heat extractor.
I'm hoping that will vent at least a few degrees.

I was curious how my measurement looks.

From the tip of the hood to where the bottom of the extractor.
19.5
Measuring that same 19.5 with the hood up, places the actual vents, directly above my CAI tube. Between the radiator shroud and TB.

Seeing as the fans suck air, and heat rises, this should be optimal??

As for the intake itself.
I had thought of plumbing some dryer hose (something similar) from the lower grille, to the CAI area.
Hoping some cooler air could offset the stagnant heat.
Granted it would only work while moving.


I'm hoping to have a good learn from you guy's, as my meds are in full swing and my abstract thought processing is faltering.

So how do these two sound?

Also any other tips for lowering those IATs?

If I can't keep cool NA, I'll never slap a heat box to it.

So greater minds than I, a little help?

Venting the hood is a MASSIVE improvement. Put it right behind the shroud/in front of the motor. Enlarge the openings in the vent. I've seen underhood temps drop 100deg with a vented hood.

Wrap the headers. Or better yet ceramic coat them then wrap. Or put manifolds back on.

If you vent the hood the "shield" on the hot air intake is not nearly the issue it is now. But sealing it up better won't hurt, that's for sure.

What blower are you looking at? Heat exchanger/pump/manifold choice will have a GIGANTIC impact on what you end up as far as IAT's go. I have had/worked on combo's where the IAT2 was lower than the IAT1. Yeah, you read that right.

 

[Pentalab]

The VMP TVS-2300 gen-2 casing / housing is a winner. Another 2+ psi boost..using the same pulley. The elbowless design is pure genius. You are probably better off buying the entire new gen-2 casing + rotor pack assy..and just selling the oem roush + rotor pack assy. By the time you swapped just the new casing in, it would probably come out a wash. Like you say, then you would end up with a semi useless roush casing.

Another option is to just buy the VMP D shaped elbow for your existing blower. But that also involves installing the new D elbow, then stuffing your hand up inside the new elbow, and marking the D shape with a marker. Then grinding out the oval into a D, on the blower inlet itself. Not a big deal with a dremel, but to do it safely, the entire rotor pack Inside + coupler should be 1st removed. You don't want any shavings getting into the rotor pack. Some have tilted the casing on an angle, then temp plugged the hole, while using the dremel, etc. It's another option..that works, and flows a lot better than the oem Roush housing. You end up with a VMP gen-1 setup....for not a lot of money involved for the new D shaped elbow.
The VMP TVS-1900 uses a D shaped elbow. It flows good. The 2300 gen 2, elbowless is the ultimate solution, it doesn't get any better than that. That's a lot of power..with just the stock exhaust.

 

[Department Of Boost]

My dream is to purchase the VMP 2300 housing and do a swap over this winter. Either that or I am going to swap the whole head unit and sell the Roush unit to offset some of the outgoing cash flow in doing so. I figure used its worth 1500-2000 where as the casing by itself is only worth being used for target practice.

This seems like a huge expense. To what end? Are you switching over to e85?

 

[46addict]

Can I shift direction a bit and throw a centrifugal setup in the mix?
My Procharged car with the 3 core intercooler on a modest 4.13" pulley (9.7psi) trapped 99mph at the 1/4 mile last weekend. DA was at 1900' and the car had dynoed at 429/380 on the current setup. I was not logging IATs but I attribute all of this to underhood heat from idling the car through the staging lane. I pushed the car with the hood up as long as I could but I needed to use the engine as I got closer to the tree.

I bet it was retarding timing to where it barely made 300hp which was embarrassing. I assumed the blow through MAF setup would help dissipate some hot air when the engine was seeing vacuum, but that did not matter. The car also has a Spal fan supplied by Procharger but I guess it was just pushing hot air.

Are modifications to the hood an absolute must to get the heat out?
It currently has ceramic coated long tubes and an offroad x pipe if that matters.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Can I shift direction a bit and throw a centrifugal setup in the mix?
My Procharged car with the 3 core intercooler on a modest 4.13" pulley (9.7psi) trapped 99mph at the 1/4 mile last weekend. DA was at 1900' and the car had dynoed at 429/380 on the current setup. I was not logging IATs but I attribute all of this to underhood heat from idling the car through the staging lane. I pushed the car with the hood up as long as I could but I needed to use the engine as I got closer to the tree.

I bet it was retarding timing to where it barely made 300hp which was embarrassing. I assumed the blow through MAF setup would help dissipate some hot air when the engine was seeing vacuum, but that did not matter. The car also has a Spal fan supplied by Procharger but I guess it was just pushing hot air.

This can't be true!!! The centri band wagon says that they don't have IAT issues.............................ever!!!

Are modifications to the hood an absolute must to get the heat out?

Yes

 

[46addict]

This can't be true!!! The centri band wagon says that they don't have IAT issues.............................ever!!!


Yes

I might as well drive with the hood off!

 

[Department Of Boost]

I might as well drive with the hood off!

That doesn't work nearly as well as a hood with correctly placed vents.

 

[lito]

The problem with the procharger is that they screwed it big time on where the SC sucks air from.

This added to the very poor fan the provide so they can route the piping, they suffer terrible from heat issues (high IATs and high ECTs on hot climates).

The hood vents may actually make your problems worse, depending on where are they located and how do they work.

If your are using an small unit (P1) you can make a 3.5" curved pipe so it can use air from the original airbox locatio and your IATs issue would be mostly gone.

 

[46addict]

I would be interested in re routing the air filter as long as it doesn't involve cutting & welding panels.

I do have a P1 which sits in the original airbox location. Can you tell me more about the curved pipe you mentioned?

 

[redfirepearlgt]

This seems like a huge expense. To what end? Are you switching over to e85?

Exactly as Pentelab indicated in his response on the VMP gen two housing. No I am not planning on going E-85. But I do like the idea of increasing the flow efficiency and not having that ROUSH badge on the casing. Yeah I know it sounds pretty frickin vain doesn't it? I'll likely just grind the ROush logo off though and put something over the blank area.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Exactly as Pentelab indicated in his response on the VMP gen two housing. No I am not planning on going E-85.

That 2psi with the same pulley doesn't do you any good though. You're already octane limited to 10.5-11psi and it will go 18psi turned all the way up. I agree that in theory you can run it at a slightly lower blower speed which will reduce IAT's and parasitic loss a little..............But good luck measuring that. It's not like the blower is anywhere near stretched out on pump gas. It's smack dab in it's efficiency range.

But I do like the idea of increasing the flow efficiency

From my perspective that's a lot of shekles for an idea. That same money put elsewhere would net much bigger gains.

and not having that ROUSH badge on the casing. Yeah I know it sounds pretty frickin vain doesn't it? I'll likely just grind the ROush logo off though and put something over the blank area.

This I can understand better. Not that I have an issue with Roush. I'm just not a "branding" guy.