Phase limiter or phase lockout?

[raredesign]

The engine has about 48k miles on it, and we have not yet opened it up to see if I need new phasers or not. If I don't and can just get the lockouts, should I go with a full lockout or with a limiter as seen here? http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/products/Ford-4.6{47}5.4L-3%2dValve-Cam-Phaser-Limiter-Kit.html

I would imagine a full lockout is safer when shooting for ~800rwhp, but the 20* phase limiting is being marketed as the "next step" in tech.

 

[BruceH]

What cams are you going with and where do you plan to put the icl? What valve springs will be used? They all make a difference concerning the choice between lockouts and limiters.

I've done some testing concerning commanding retard with limiters and cams. My own opinion is that if you have a higher lift cam and stiff springs you would be better off locking them out and using a comp crank gear set to put the icl in a good spot. A good spot would depend on your cams duration and your motor setup.

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I know just enough to make an informed opinion.

 

[skwerl]

It sounds like you don't know what the phasers do or why the travel would need to be limited or locked out. I suggest you do some more homework on which cams and springs you are planning on using.

And keep in mind that the phasers (and variable cam timing) are what give you low end torque. The torque you use in 90% of your driving. Locking the phasers means you no longer have a street friendly vehicle and maneuvering through parking lots will become a major burden. Might as well leave it on the trailer until you take it to the drag strip, and putz around in your beater car instead.

 

[BruceH]

It sounds like you don't know what the phasers do or why the travel would need to be limited or locked out. I suggest you do some more homework on which cams and springs you are planning on using.

And keep in mind that the phasers (and variable cam timing) are what give you low end torque. The torque you use in 90% of your driving. Locking the phasers means you no longer have a street friendly vehicle and maneuvering through parking lots will become a major burden. Might as well leave it on the trailer until you take it to the drag strip, and putz around in your beater car instead.

It doesn't have to be that bad. I'm running on lockouts but I have an icl that works well with the duration of my cams. Retarding the cams generally gives you more air on the top end. VCT allows for a more advanced icl in the lower loads while still being able to retard them for more airflow up top. The stock tune uses significant retard down low for emissions and mpg but only at lower loads and rpms, in the higher part of the table at wot the stock cams are only being commanded to retard 9 degrees. The stock cams have a crazy icl of around 109 degrees to boot.

Bigger cams have more duration which lessens the need for vct. Install the cams retarded (or have the icl ground where you want it) and phasers locked with bigger cams and vct isn't needed as much because max airflow will come with only a few degrees of retard (of course this depends on the cam grind, motor, heads, etc.).

Here's the stock VCT table. IIRC this is the one for imrc open.

 

[skwerl]

You blow my mind every time you start rattling off those numbers, Bruce. I have a vague, trembling grasp on the theory but your comprehension of the particulars amazes me.

 

[ford20]

Bruce, wasn't the mandate for the lockouts .500 lift or was it .550 lift? If i am remembering correctly he is using the 127350's which wouldn't necessitate the need for the lockouts correct?

 

[MassMustang]

I'm curious on the recommendations here as I picked up the following parts for a winter project:

Comp Cams 127350 Stage 2 Blower Cams (in preparation of the Novi 1200/2200)
Comp Cams 23125-24 High Lift Beehive Springs with new Retainers
Ford Racing Cam Phaser Bolts
Livernois Cam Phaser Limiters

 

[raredesign]

What cams are you going with and where do you plan to put the icl? What valve springs will be used? They all make a difference concerning the choice between lockouts and limiters.

I've done some testing concerning commanding retard with limiters and cams. My own opinion is that if you have a higher lift cam and stiff springs you would be better off locking them out and using a comp crank gear set to put the icl in a good spot. A good spot would depend on your cams duration and your motor setup.

I'm not claiming to be an expert but I know just enough to make an informed opinion.

Thank you for the reply. I was looking at the Livernois Stage 4.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803122

I am not sure which springs to run, but assumed my speed shop would order them.

 

[BruceH]

You blow my mind every time you start rattling off those numbers, Bruce. I have a vague, trembling grasp on the theory but your comprehension of the particulars amazes me.

I think we share the same brain abnormality, lol.

Bruce, wasn't the mandate for the lockouts .500 lift or was it .550 lift? If i am remembering correctly he is using the 127350's which wouldn't necessitate the need for the lockouts correct?

.500 but it's just something that is theory. It's good sound theory but in the end you should really check for clearance if you plan to run a .500 lift cam without limiters imo.

I'm curious on the recommendations here as I picked up the following parts for a winter project:

Comp Cams 127350 Stage 2 Blower Cams (in preparation of the Novi 1200/2200)
Comp Cams 23125-24 High Lift Beehive Springs with new Retainers
Ford Racing Cam Phaser Bolts
Livernois Cam Phaser Limiters

I'd run lockouts with those springs. Or run 26113 springs and limiters. FWIW a friend of mine gained over 35rwhp going from 350 to 550 cams. The 350 are really good if you want stock like driveability and sound.

Thank you for the reply. I was looking at the Livernois Stage 4.
http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/product/LPP803122

I am not sure which springs to run, but assumed my speed shop would order them.

If it was me I'd run 26125 or TFS (Trick Flow Specialties) springs with those cams and lock them out. Not sure where the icl is but you should have pretty good results with the icl set from 104 to 108.

 

[eighty6gt]

35 HP from 350 to 550... so the 350's probably do very little. Sheesh.

 

[MassMustang]

I
I'd run lockouts with those springs. Or run 26113 springs and limiters. FWIW a friend of mine gained over 35rwhp going from 350 to 550 cams. The 350 are really good if you want stock like driveability and sound.

I picked up the 127350s hoping to maintain some drivability around town but wanted something more aggressive to squeeze some extra power out. I was hoping that the 127350s would be good for a NA setup (mods below) until I get a Paxton. Am I on the wrong track?

 

[raredesign]

If it was me I'd run 26125 or TFS (Trick Flow Specialties) springs with those cams and lock them out. Not sure where the icl is but you should have pretty good results with the icl set from 104 to 108.

Thank you BruceH

 

[BruceH]

35 HP from 350 to 550... so the 350's probably do very little. Sheesh.

I picked up the 127350s hoping to maintain some drivability around town but wanted something more aggressive to squeeze some extra power out. I was hoping that the 127350s would be good for a NA setup (mods below) until I get a Paxton. Am I on the wrong track?

The 127350 are good cams. They will pick up power over the stock cams and maintain an awesome level of driveability without lots of trial and error on the part of the tuner. The wide lsa isn't ideal for na but it's going to work just fine.

My friend's cams were ground with a 108 icl which is the same as regular 350 with 6 degrees of retard. The lower durations of 350 cams combined with him locking them out hurt his top end (more retard in higher loads should of let more air in during higher rpms). When he went to 550 cams power came up considerably but driveability went down. Keep in mind that he was running a highly modified car that was mostly used at the track. Not just the dragstrip, mostly on the road course.

 

[MassMustang]

Ok, some maybe the 127350s will suit my goals for the time being. Cruising around town and back roads , some highway driving and the occasional romp down the 1/4 mile.

I may try the Livernois limiters first since I've got 'em. I'll swap to BBR lockouts or something similar if I have issues.

 

[retfr8flyr]

I've had both lockouts and limiters in my engine setups and I prefer the limiters for normal street driving. I am currently running Livernois limiters and their springs with .550 lift cams without any problems.

 

[MassMustang]

I've had both lockouts and limiters in my engine setups and I prefer the limiters for normal street driving. I am currently running Livernois limiters and their springs with .550 lift cams without any problems.

Thanks for the info!

 

[raredesign]

If it was me I'd run 26125 or TFS (Trick Flow Specialties) springs with those cams and lock them out. Not sure where the icl is but you should have pretty good results with the icl set from 104 to 108.

Bruce, do you think it would be difficult for my tuner to get good drivability on a stage 4 cam? I park it for the winter in my garage, and it takes a lot of slight turns back and forth to scoot it over enough. If the cams make it unmanageable with such minute control, I am afraid I won't be able to park it. I have no experience with lofty cams yet, so I have nothing to go by.
What are your thoughts?
The car will be used as a summer driver as well.

 

[skwerl]

Bruce, do you think it would be difficult for my tuner to get good drivability on a stage 4 cam? I park it for the winter in my garage, and it takes a lot of slight turns back and forth to scoot it over enough. If the cams make it unmanageable with such minute control, I am afraid I won't be able to park it. I have no experience with lofty cams yet, so I have nothing to go by.
What are your thoughts?
The car will be used as a summer driver as well.

Sounds like you need some car dollies for pushing your car sideways in the garage.

 

[BruceH]

Bruce, do you think it would be difficult for my tuner to get good drivability on a stage 4 cam? I park it for the winter in my garage, and it takes a lot of slight turns back and forth to scoot it over enough. If the cams make it unmanageable with such minute control, I am afraid I won't be able to park it. I have no experience with lofty cams yet, so I have nothing to go by.
What are your thoughts?
The car will be used as a summer driver as well.

It's not like that. When I say driveability I'm talking about things like surging idle while driving, coasting, or shifting; bucking, stalling, trouble driving in a parking lot at low speeds, general pain in the ass things. Maneuvering in the garage is more of clutch control provided the non driving idle is stable.

I also have no idea of the skills of your tuner and I'd really rather not comment. I've managed to get all of my combos to work but I have gone through hundreds of tunes learning what affects what. I'm probably not doing everything correctly but what I've done works for my motor. More than likely I'm using some parameters to correct others that I don't have correct.

Your tuner might be able to get it right in a few tries or he might tell you that's just how radical cams are which is true to an extent. What do those stage 4 cams compare to anyway? IIRC it's basically a Comp 127550 or 600 with a 114lsa. The wider lsa will help with driveablility.

What I'm telling you is just an educated guess. I've only tuned my combos and I've only had 4 different cams. I'm not an expert by any means and I can't give you definite answers on how it's going to work out. A general rule of thumb is that the more radical the cam the harder it will be to tune for.

 

[raredesign]

Sounds like you need some car dollies for pushing your car sideways in the garage.

Sweet! I didn't even know these existed! I just might do it!