Problems with Camshaft degreeing

[crownaviation]

Psshhhtt, you know who to hit up first, right?

Lol.. yeah I am planning on taking it out soon

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Lol.. yeah I am planning on taking it out soon

Sounds good. Text me and we can figure something out. I've got a moroso tank that bolts in the factory spot if you're interested in a partial trade.

 

[AutoXRacer]

OK, so getting back to degreeing cams... I'm having issues.

I got perfect TDC, set up my timing per trick flows instructions and set my cams to R6 (retarded 6 degrees).

When I degree the cams I am getting 111.5 and my cam card says 102. 102+6 is 108. Why am I off 3.5?

 

[BruceH]

OK, so getting back to degreeing cams... I'm having issues.

I got perfect TDC, set up my timing per trick flows instructions and set my cams to R6 (retarded 6 degrees).

When I degree the cams I am getting 111.5 and my cam card says 102. 102+6 is 108. Why am I off 3.5?

Maybe because they are calibrated for the 2v? Does anyone know the tooth count on a 2v sprocket?

 

[AutoXRacer]

Maybe because they are calibrated for the 2v? Does anyone know the tooth count on a 2v sprocket?

No... sigh

I made a rookie mistake!!!

I just noticed my dial indicator bottomed out... sigh
I was not reading max lift correctly. Back to the drawing board.

How embarrassing.

 

[AutoXRacer]

OK, so now I am getting 109.5 to 110.5. I keep rotating the crank clockwise and taking the 0.050 before max lift and after max lift.

I keep getting 0.5 to 1.0 degree difference on the degree wheel with every rotation. It flip flops back and forth.

What the hell??

Its close to the 102 cam card spec plus 6 retard which should give me 108... I was hoping to get no more than 1 degree off.

 

[BruceH]

OK, so now I am getting 109.5 to 110.5. I keep rotating the crank clockwise and taking the 0.050 before max lift and after max lift.

I keep getting 0.5 to 1.0 degree difference on the degree wheel with every rotation. It flip flops back and forth.

What the hell??

Its close to the 102 cam card spec plus 6 retard which should give me 108... I was hoping to get no more than 1 degree off.

I couldn't get closer than 1-2* repeatability when I did my motor. That's all that was possible with my eyes and the degree wheel I was using. I'd say you are doing pretty well. I'd also say that Comp is machining to pretty close specs nowadays.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Well, the left hand cam is not doing so well...

I am getting 110.5 to 111.5.
Its amazing how 0.001-0.002 difference on the dial indicator makes with the final numbers.

So to my understanding is that I am referencing the degrees on the crank to the 0.050" before and after max lift.
Adding the numbers and dividing by 2 to get my intake center line; then add or subtract ADV or Retard.

I think my numbers are getting fudged by the dial indicator setup as its not ideal. I can't get a perfect parallel to the valve stem. I wish they have an extension for the dial indicator.


So on the low end, I am getting the following difference between cam timing:
1.0 degrees difference

And up to a high of:
2.0 degrees difference

Update:

I adjusted the lifter so it actually is slightly opening the valve when the rocker is installed... And I am now getting consistent readings:
LH 111.5
RH 109.5

Per Lito's recommendation, I will be adjusting the LH to R4 (from R6) to try to get the readings closer together.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

You're turning the crank clockwise when you're taking these measurements, correct?

 

[crownaviation]

What are you getting with the stock crank gear.. or the adjustable set to zero?

 

[AutoXRacer]

You're turning the crank clockwise when you're taking these measurements, correct?

Yes, I started following Trick Flows instructions of clockwise and counter clockwise rotations and I noticed inconsistencies, so I ended up only rotating clockwise (when facing the engine).

What are you getting with the stock crank gear.. or the adjustable set to zero?

I never used the stock gears or set the adjustable to stock. I started off right off the bat at R6.
Should I have taken a baseline with the stock gears or set the adjustable to stock timing?



Update, I ended up retarding both cams to R4 and got 109.5 (76*/143*) on both LH and RH sides.
Should I try to get them closer to 108 target or leave them as is...?

I spent all day (a full day) learning how to degree cams... I think I got the hang of it... sigh
I am definitely getting consistent results now. Its just a major PITA to remove, install, check, remove, install check, remove install check... It would make it easier to have two dial indicator setups, two solid lash adjusters, and two rockers.

I am exhausted...


Update #2:
I just thought about it...why am I getting 109.5 when I set it to R4... Cam card specs 102 + 4 (retard) should give me 106...I'm getting 109.5. Thats 3.6 degrees off. What gives?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

It's much easier to degree cams with solid adjustable CCTs, that's for sure.

I had my cams at 102.5 and 101.5, and my centerline was supposed to be 102. The original location was closer to 13 degrees, and I went eight degrees on the crank gears and moved almost ten. Idk why.

 

[AutoXRacer]

So would it be worth it for me to fine the intake center line using 0 advance/retard to see what these cams actually have for a center line?

Then retard them accordingly?

I just retarded them 6 degrees off the bat. I should have checked with 0 adv/rtd for a baseline. I ended up at 4 degrees retard with 109.5 center line on both sides.

Having the same reading on both sides is making me doubt my results. lol

 

[Dubstep Shep]

I would try it at zero and see what you get. It's worth a try anyways.

You may be able to hop a couple chain links and get it to line up, but I can't say for sure.

Honestly anything within a couple degrees seems about as good as it's gonna get.

 

[BruceH]

Yes, I started following Trick Flows instructions of clockwise and counter clockwise rotations and I noticed inconsistencies, so I ended up only rotating clockwise (when facing the engine).




I never used the stock gears or set the adjustable to stock. I started off right off the bat at R6.
Should I have taken a baseline with the stock gears or set the adjustable to stock timing?



Update, I ended up retarding both cams to R4 and got 109.5 (76*/143*) on both LH and RH sides.
Should I try to get them closer to 108 target or leave them as is...?

I spent all day (a full day) learning how to degree cams... I think I got the hang of it... sigh
I am definitely getting consistent results now. Its just a major PITA to remove, install, check, remove, install check, remove install check... It would make it easier to have two dial indicator setups, two solid lash adjusters, and two rockers.

I am exhausted...


Update #2:
I just thought about it...why am I getting 109.5 when I set it to R4... Cam card specs 102 + 4 (retard) should give me 106...I'm getting 109.5. Thats 3.6 degrees off. What gives?

Maybe they aren't calibrated for a 3v? As long as you get something repeatable and it's in the range of what you want it will be ok. IMO 109.5 should be just fine with your 127450 cams. I'd ask your tuner though.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Maybe they aren't calibrated for a 3v? As long as you get something repeatable and it's in the range of what you want it will be ok. IMO 109.5 should be just fine with your 127450 cams. I'd ask your tuner though.

I had never even thought about that, but I doubt the geometry is the same between the 3V and whatever the gears were made for. 2V I believe...

 

[AutoXRacer]

OK so I just degree-ed the OEM crank gears and the Trick Flow gears (at 0, R2, and R4).

Let me just start by saying if my technique is correct, then the Comp Cams cam cards intake center line are incorrect; intake center line 102.

Ford OEM crank gear:
RH - 106
LH - 105.5

Trick Flow crank gear:
0 adv/rtd
LH - 105.5
RH - 105.5

R2
RH - 107.5
LH - 107.25

R4
LH - 109.25
RH - 109.5

So since Lito wants to target 108, guess I'll be retarding the cams 2 degrees to get 107.5.

My question is, on my cam card, it stated the intake center line to be 102. Where are the 3.5 extra degrees coming from?

 

[Dubstep Shep]

My intake centerline was 102 and mine degreed out at 113 after initial installation.

Really there are A LOT of different connections and tolerances between the cams and the crank. Chains, gears, tension, and the list goes on.

That's the point of degreeing the cams; the factory installation procedure falls way short of being an exact method.

 

[AutoXRacer]

Wow, so it may not actually be the cams that are out of specs, but more so the stack up of parts.

I got it... Thank you for all your help guys!!
I feel confident about cam degree now!! Anyone need their cams degree-ed, I got it down pack after 17 hours total so far... lol

 

[Dubstep Shep]

Wow, so it may not actually be the cams that are out of specs, but more so the stack up of parts.

I got it... Thank you for all your help guys!!
I feel confident about cam degree now!! Anyone need their cams degree-ed, I got it down pack after 17 hours total so far... lol

Shoot me a PM if you need some help. I just finished mine and could probably walk you through all the mistakes I made.