S550 Mustang Suspension and Powertrain Discussion

[Department Of Boost]

In all honesty, I'm still hoping that the weight rumors we're hearing are untrue. (I tend to be optimistic to a fault) But this latest news, combined with my HPDE trip to Sebring last week, have me rethinking my 2015 strategy. Previously, I was thinking boost boost BOOST! Now I'm thinking weight reduction, MAX tire width, and brake mods.

I did a ride along in Chicane23's GR40TT GT500 a couple years ago, and that car felt surprising nimble, given the curb weight of far more than 4000 with me in the passenger seat. I think an S550 at 3900 with me could still feel nimble with enough tire & brake.

Little advice. Skip the boost. For open track stuff it's just a PITA. My 2007 has tons of suspension, tons of brakes, lots of rubber and it pretty light for what it is. It will hustle around the track pretty good. But I'm over it. I'm really not even interested in taking it to the track again. Next project is going to be NA and lightweight. Sooooo much easier. Sure I may get passed in a straight line ever once in a while (probably not much though), I'll get over it.

Don't you have a elevindy billion HP Notch?

 

[Sharad]

Little advice. Skip the boost. For open track stuff it's just a PITA. My 2007 has tons of suspension, tons of brakes, lots of rubber and it pretty light for what it is. It will hustle around the track pretty good. But I'm over it. I'm really not even interested in taking it to the track again. Next project is going to be NA and lightweight. Sooooo much easier. Sure I may get passed in a straight line ever once in a while (probably not much though), I'll get over it.

Don't you have a elevindy billion HP Notch?

Selling the Fox to buy the 2015. But yeah, my 2015 will ABSOLUTELY be an HPDE car. It will likely get boost, but my immediate focus will be maximizing grip. I'd like to put in some good laps at Sebring before I start adding power.

 

[Department Of Boost]

It will likely get boost

Don't do it!!!!!!

Fantasy fleet:

Street car with big boost, looks cool, handles and stops like crap.

Track car, NA, handles and stops great.

You can just about do the above two cars for the same amount of money it costs to have a car that makes big power, handles, stops and stays cool.

 

[Pentalab]

The blower would add what... 100-125 lbs ? IF you kept the boost down, like 5-7 psi, and used a decent IC / HE /ic pump /de-gas.... and perhaps 100% distilled water + water wetter for the HE-IC loop, I don't think IAT's would be an issue. The tradeoff would be more hp vs more weight....with the extra 100-125 lbs all being added to the front of an already heavy car.

In the end, you are no doubt correct. The blower car would go quicker in the straights....but slower in the corners. The blower car would have to start it's braking sooner since it's not only going faster at the end of the straights...it's also heavier. The $6-7K for the blower would be better spent elsewhere. My understanding is the 07-14 GT-500 cars don't fare too well with track use.

 

[sheizasosay]

I haven't been following this year, but that is good to hear. Aschenbach won in a Camaro last year and as far as I can remember the closest mustang was like 3-400pts back. There was another Camaro in the top 5 as well from my memory. It was not really common to see mustangs at the front of GTS.

Yeah Camaro won last year. That's because Dean Martin only raced in Detroit for the series. That's my take on it anyway and I 'm sticking to it.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

The only reason I've seen to boost a track car like that is if you're having to add ballast weight anyways because you're below the minimum.

That's a rare situation though.

Might as well add weight that produces power if you had to add weight.

EDIT: the GR40 cars are... Unbelievably awesome at cornering...

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

I know there is a lot of controversy with respect to weight on the S550 this week - Steeda said over the weekend that it will be +200-300 pounds over the S197, then backtracked and admits to not weighing a car. Car & Driver today says +250, but also haven't weighed squat. These rumors got me all spun up, pissed off, and vowing to cut up our new 2015 GT as soon as it arrives... this "weight speculation" is ruining the S550 before we even get a chance to flog it. Or ACTUALLY SEE ONE ON SCALES. This could all be bullsh*t, or maybe they are right...


click above to watch Vorshlag's 8 minute video walk-around of a Pre-Production 2015 Mustang, inside and out

About four weeks ago, Jason from Vorshlag and I got to poke and prod a pre-production 2015 Mustang, shown above. This was the third pre-pro S550 we have seen, but the first one we could get our hands on unsupervised. I as stated in my S197 build thread update posted earlier today, we actually skipped competing in an SCCA ProSolo to be able to see this 2015 Mustang - and we had hoped to weigh it, drive it, and do a data dump from the OBDII port. And while we didn't get to do those three things, we did get to sit inside the car, I did my typical "helmet test with a tall guy" seat/roof inspection, we measured the track widths and poked the vidcam inside and under the car for a better look at some suspension bits, wheel clearance and interior room.



Take a look at this video above as Jason and I discuss engineering aspects of this chassis, like the little aero smoothing and drag reduction tricks that Ford has done on this chassis. It is actually really slick, and I think it will show in both increased fuel economy and higher speeds on track. We look at the exhaust routing, suspension components and wheel room as well.

As soon as we find a production S550 within 100 miles of us we will immediately take our scales and weigh the 2015 Mustang and post it here. Hoonage, track testing and suspension development work will follow as soon as our car arrives, which we have been assured is one of if not THE first GT to hit Dallas, Texas in about 6-10 weeks.

Cheers,

 

[Department Of Boost]

The blower would add what... 100-125 lbs ? IF you kept the boost down, like 5-7 psi, and used a decent IC / HE /ic pump /de-gas.... and perhaps 100% distilled water + water wetter for the HE-IC loop, I don't think IAT's would be an issue. The tradeoff would be more hp vs more weight....with the extra 100-125 lbs all being added to the front of an already heavy car.

In the end, you are no doubt correct. The blower car would go quicker in the straights....but slower in the corners. The blower car would have to start it's braking sooner since it's not only going faster at the end of the straights...it's also heavier. The $6-7K for the blower would be better spent elsewhere. My understanding is the 07-14 GT-500 cars don't fare too well with track use.

HP makes heat my man. Doesn't matter how it's getting made. Even if the boost is kept low and even if a KILLER IC cooling system is run (off the shelf stuff will not keep things "cool") you still have the added heat load on the engine cooling system and the oil system to deal with.

I did a track day when it was 100deg out. My 2007 had the KB then (yeah, they run hot) and I didn't have the rear mount heat exchanger. That said there is no other S197 on the planet with as much time/thought/effort/money put into the IC system. My car was running 180-200deg IAT's, 250 water temps (engine) and 280deg oil temps with me "soft pedaling" it down the straights. Between sessions I was running all the fans and pumps in the pits (car off). The same day my friends 2007 but NA was running a blistering 180deg water temp.

Yeah, my car made twice the power. Made twice the heat too.

 

[Department Of Boost]

The only reason I've seen to boost a track car...................

.............is because RACE CAR!

Good enough reason for me. People just need to know what they are trying to do and the "price" they are going to pay for it.

Don't get me wrong, my 2007 works pretty good on the track (Ok, really good). It's a LOT of work though. That said I'm not planning on getting rid of it and it will stay in "track prep" condition. I'm not going to convert it to a drag car or anything.

like that is if you're having to add ballast weight anyways because you're below the minimum.

That's a rare situation though.

Might as well add weight that produces power if you had to add weight.

EDIT: the GR40 cars are... Unbelievably awesome at cornering...

The weight doesn't bother me so much. That's what bigger tires and stiffer springs are made for. It's the keeping it cool bit that is a lot of work. And of course if I knew it was going to end up where it's at now and started from scratch I would have done a few things differently to make it work even better.

 

[Pentalab]

HP makes heat my man. Doesn't matter how it's getting made. Even if the boost is kept low and even if a KILLER IC cooling system is run (off the shelf stuff will not keep things "cool") you still have the added heat load on the engine cooling system and the oil system to deal with.

I did a track day when it was 100deg out. My 2007 had the KB then (yeah, they run hot) and I didn't have the rear mount heat exchanger. That said there is no other S197 on the planet with as much time/thought/effort/money put into the IC system. My car was running 180-200deg IAT's, 250 water temps (engine) and 280deg oil temps with me "soft pedaling" it down the straights. Between sessions I was running all the fans and pumps in the pits (car off). The same day my friends 2007 but NA was running a blistering 180deg water temp.

Yeah, my car made twice the power. Made twice the heat too.

Yikes...with 180-200 deg IAT's, the timing would be pulled waaay back. Most tunes will start to pull timing between 135-150 deg. The hp would drop like a rock. I just read on VMP's site where he took his 750 rwhp GT-500 onto a road course...and on lap 2, the ic/he loop got so hot, it blew the cap off of the de-gas bottle. Timing was pulled back..and hp had dropped down to just 400 rwhp. But that note was from quite some time ago.

How much boost did you have with the K bell blower, how much rwhp ? VMP's "fix" for the high iat problem was to use a D shaped elbow, and port matched inlet on the blower. Heat from blower dropped 52 F.. ( pre-ic). I have one of his new TVS-1900's..which has a 25% bigger inlet than the TVS-2300. Blower exhaust temps on the new 1900 blower are way down.( pre-ic).
His new TVS-2300 is not out..yet, but the inlet on it is just massive. Boost goes up with the bigger inlet too....so a bigger pulley can then be used to drop the boost back down..and temps drop again.

But none of this may be enough for a 20-30 min track session..as you have found out. I read somewhere 2 years ago that the GT-500's using the M122 blower would do ok for the 1st 10 mins of a track session..passing everybody left +right. Then they started to slow down, and eventually got passed by everyone. The M122 is no TVS however.
That entire M series of blowers runs too hot imo. Dunno why eaton still depicts em on their site.

 

[Dubstep Shep]

.............is because RACE CAR!

Good enough reason for me. People just need to know what they are trying to do and the "price" they are going to pay for it.

Don't get me wrong, my 2007 works pretty good on the track (Ok, really good). It's a LOT of work though. That said I'm not planning on getting rid of it and it will stay in "track prep" condition. I'm not going to convert it to a drag car or anything.



The weight doesn't bother me so much. That's what bigger tires and stiffer springs are made for. It's the keeping it cool bit that is a lot of work. And of course if I knew it was going to end up where it's at now and started from scratch I would have done a few things differently to make it work even better.

Hahahaha this is why we get along lol.

Here in a couple years when I go full track with my car you and I can have some fun with it.

 

[lito]

I haven't been following this year, but that is good to hear. Aschenbach won in a Camaro last year and as far as I can remember the closest mustang was like 3-400pts back. There was another Camaro in the top 5 as well from my memory. It was not really common to see mustangs at the front of GTS.

How they run at WC does not count as how good/fast or whatever these cars are, if so, we all would have to believe the Optima's are such great race cars, is just a BoP thing.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Yikes...with 180-200 deg IAT's, the timing would be pulled waaay back. Most tunes will start to pull timing between 135-150 deg. The hp would drop like a rock.

Oh yeah, it was a TURD!

I was running 110 race fuel though so there was more timing in it than you could think about getting away with running 93.

How's this for a number. The water EXITING the HE (the coolest it gets) was 140deg!

I just read on VMP's site where he took his 750 rwhp GT-500 onto a road course...and on lap 2, the ic/he loop got so hot, it blew the cap off of the de-gas bottle. Timing was pulled back..and hp had dropped down to just 400 rwhp. But that note was from quite some time ago.

Without a very custom/over the top IC system that sounds about right.

How much boost did you have with the K bell blower

19

how much rwhp ?

650ish

VMP's "fix" for the high iat problem was to use a D shaped elbow, and port matched inlet on the blower. Heat from blower dropped 52 F.. ( pre-ic). I have one of his new TVS-1900's..which has a 25% bigger inlet than the TVS-2300. Blower exhaust temps on the new 1900 blower are way down.( pre-ic).
His new TVS-2300 is not out..yet, but the inlet on it is just massive. Boost goes up with the bigger inlet too....so a bigger pulley can then be used to drop the boost back down..and temps drop again.

Lots of fuzzy math in here^^^^

Dropping the blower discharge temps 52deg doesn't equal a 52deg IAT. The IC can only pull so much heat energy out. And most of them are already "maxed". I've done all sorts of testing with bigger inlets. Unless it was the worlds worst inlet and the blower was spinning max RPM I have never seen any more than a 8-10deg IAT drop.

As boost goes up , so does temps. Doesn't matter how that boost is getting made. You are looking at about 14deg/psi with a TVS screw. A blower spinning 11,000rpm and making 10psi will make the same heat as a smaller blower spinning 15,000rpm and making the same 10psi (all things being equal and the smaller blower isn't being "overspun").

Don't get me wrong, a bigger inlet, TB or CAI is ALWAYS a good thing. But boost is boost.

But lets say you want to run less boost to keep things cooler. Even if my car was making 9.5psi that would in theory reduce the blower discharge temps 104.5deg (screw blowers are about 11deg/psi). You don't get 105deg lower IAT's though. You still have the massive heat soak coming through the motor and into the intake manifold (which is considerable). And there is IC efficiency to factor in too. When the delta between the discharge temp and the water temp get closer together the percentage of heat reduction is reduced. Lots of factors. You would think you could get 60% of that, but you don't. There is a "minimum" base temp that you can get things down to, and after that you have to throw buckets of effort at it to get any more. I don't care what you do to a track car with a blower. You won't ever see under 140deg.

Love to chat more, gotta go to the gym tho!

 

[sheizasosay]

You want to see some horsepower? Looks like this guy just mashes the gas and coasts the majority of the course....and is dominating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1aRHekq8Y

Forced induction

 

[Sky Render]

You want to see some horsepower? Looks like this guy just mashes the gas and coasts the majority of the course....and is dominating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1aRHekq8Y

Forced induction

Holy shit, are you sure that wasn't a recording of Forza Motorsports?!

 

[Department Of Boost]

You want to see some horsepower? Looks like this guy just mashes the gas and coasts the majority of the course....and is dominating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC1aRHekq8Y

Forced induction

Almost anything can be solved with money.

 

[csamsh]

That's AIX...he's on course with regular AI cars, and probably some CMC-ers there.

 

[sheizasosay]

Guaranteed.

 

[Sharad]

HP makes heat my man. Doesn't matter how it's getting made. Even if the boost is kept low and even if a KILLER IC cooling system is run (off the shelf stuff will not keep things "cool") you still have the added heat load on the engine cooling system and the oil system to deal with.

I did a track day when it was 100deg out. My 2007 had the KB then (yeah, they run hot) and I didn't have the rear mount heat exchanger. That said there is no other S197 on the planet with as much time/thought/effort/money put into the IC system. My car was running 180-200deg IAT's, 250 water temps (engine) and 280deg oil temps with me "soft pedaling" it down the straights. Between sessions I was running all the fans and pumps in the pits (car off). The same day my friends 2007 but NA was running a blistering 180deg water temp.

Yeah, my car made twice the power. Made twice the heat too.

Secret-

When I ran at Sebring last week, my car got hot. Not hot enough to damage anything, but hot. Granted, it was like 97° ambient, but still... and I was shifting at 6000 RPMs because #ProChargerPowah.

I'm sure a BOSS radiator and TR hood would help, but I'm 100% focused on the 2015 5.0 now. Looking forward, not back.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Secret-

When I ran at Sebring last week, my car got hot. Not hot enough to damage anything, but hot. Granted, it was like 97° ambient, but still... and I was shifting at 6000 RPMs because #ProChargerPowah.

I'm sure a BOSS radiator and TR hood would help, but I'm 100% focused on the 2015 5.0 now. Looking forward, not back.

You have a PC on your Coyote car? What sort of boost? Air to air? What IAT's were you seeing? What water and oil temps?