The value of good tires!

[SoundGuyDave]

I just finished the last event of my season...

Prior to this event, I avoided tracking in the rain like the plague, since every time I would THINK about the loud pedal, the car would kick the rear end out sharply at a minimum, and slide off the track on occasion. It was miserable. I basically figured that I just don't know how to drive in the rain. Rain line made no difference, at all...

I retired my 30+ track-day Nitto 555s, and picked up some Dunlop Star Specs (275/35-18) last month, and Saturday was the first time I *HAD* to drive them on track in the rain. I had a student in the event, and at the very least, I needed to be able to recon the track and do some condition assessment prior to going out in his M3, so I gingerly pulled out of the pits, and much to my amazement, THE CAR STUCK! Nowhere near dry condition grip, obviously, but the difference was night and day. The balance of the car became obvious, rather than obscured, since I could induce a slight push or slight oversteer at will with just throttle and brake articulation, and at the end of the rainy period (4:00PM!!!! WTF!!!!), I was actually having fun!

Last session was in the dry, instructors only run group, and if T1 wasn't still underwater, I would have thrown the Hoosiers on, but the Star Specs did quite nicely in the dry as well.

I guess that's the lesson: once you feel your tires start to fall off, CHANGE THEM OUT. The $$ savings in running them "just a few more events" will cost you, not in performance, but in driver confidence.

 

[SD07GT]

I just finished the last event of my season...

Prior to this event, I avoided tracking in the rain like the plague, since every time I would THINK about the loud pedal, the car would kick the rear end out sharply at a minimum, and slide off the track on occasion. It was miserable. I basically figured that I just don't know how to drive in the rain. Rain line made no difference, at all...

I retired my 30+ track-day Nitto 555s, and picked up some Dunlop Star Specs (275/35-18) last month, and Saturday was the first time I *HAD* to drive them on track in the rain. I had a student in the event, and at the very least, I needed to be able to recon the track and do some condition assessment prior to going out in his M3, so I gingerly pulled out of the pits, and much to my amazement, THE CAR STUCK! Nowhere near dry condition grip, obviously, but the difference was night and day. The balance of the car became obvious, rather than obscured, since I could induce a slight push or slight oversteer at will with just throttle and brake articulation, and at the end of the rainy period (4:00PM!!!! WTF!!!!), I was actually having fun!

Last session was in the dry, instructors only run group, and if T1 wasn't still underwater, I would have thrown the Hoosiers on, but the Star Specs did quite nicely in the dry as well.

I guess that's the lesson: once you feel your tires start to fall off, CHANGE THEM OUT. The $$ savings in running them "just a few more events" will cost you, not in performance, but in driver confidence.

look into th Bridgestone RE-11 ..they just came out with a 275-40-18 !

 

[Vapour Trails]

Not surprised, those two tires are not even comparable. Lots of guys in my autox club are raving about the star specs.

 

[SD07GT]

Not surprised, those two tires are not even comparable. Lots of guys in my autox club are raving about the star specs.

Tire rack is replacing the star spec with the RE-11 as being the number street tire out there in the next tire test !

 

[Vapour Trails]

Tire rack is replacing the star spec with the RE-11 as being the number street tire out there in the next tire test !

The RE-11 is also a great tire, but $276 each last time I checked for 275/40/18.

 

[Sleeper_08]

Here are some test results from Tire Rack and they did perform well in the wet

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/spiderChart.jsp?ttid=118

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Interesting review! I can confirm all their comments about the Dunlop tires, with the only thing I DON'T like about them being the road noise. Then again, with the hard motor mounts, and all the rod ends in the suspension, my car inside is like a symphony of whines, growls, and rumbles, anyway, so it's not really that big of an issue.

Realistically, all four of the tires they reviewed came so close in their scores, that you really should look at the "raw data" for further clarification. I personally hate subjective scoring, since the opportunity for bias is so strong, so I ignored that, and just looked at the slalom, lap, braking, and skidpad tests. The results are interesting, in that all four tires performed so closely. Since we're talking about rain usage, and the Kumho isn't as good as the others across the board, I'll ignore that set of data.
Slalom: 0.02 second spread across the whole field. Lap times were also 0.02 seconds of spread. Braking only revealed an 18 INCH variance, and only 0.04g separated the three tires... If you assume a +/- 2% margin of error for variables (temps and pressures, vehicle weight, driver skill or consistency, accuracy of balancing, etc.), ALL of the variance falls within that margin of error. At that point, I honestly think it comes down to whatever choice you make will be a good one. It looks like the RE-11 is going to be a strong contender, but not a category killer by any stretch.

 

[Random Asshole]

Realistically, all four of the tires they reviewed came so close in their scores, that you really should look at the "raw data" for further clarification. I personally hate subjective scoring, since the opportunity for bias is so strong, so I ignored that..

Bingo. They talked shit about the kumhos the whole time, yet it posted the highest dry g's and tied for second fastest dry lap times. But, they "rated" it fairly lower across the board. I've never experienced a good rain tire, so I figure they just don't really exist. Wet is slow. Looking at the tread pattern between the star specs and the kumhos makes it obvious where each is going to excel. No big surprises here.
Not trying to say any tire is superior, just surprised they rated the ectsas like that. I'm loving them.

So dave, how was saturday? Were there rivers across the track? I loved the last one right before kink before the main straight. Made it good watching for those trying to get past the finish over a hundred. Good 'ol white knuckle driving.

 

[SD07GT]

Bingo. They talked shit about the kumhos the whole time, yet it posted the highest dry g's and tied for second fastest dry lap times. But, they "rated" it fairly lower across the board. I've never experienced a good rain tire, so I figure they just don't really exist. Wet is slow. Looking at the tread pattern between the star specs and the kumhos makes it obvious where each is going to excel. No big surprises here.
Not trying to say any tire is superior, just surprised they rated the ectsas like that. I'm loving them.

So dave, how was saturday? Were there rivers across the track? I loved the last one right before kink before the main straight. Made it good watching for those trying to get past the finish over a hundred. Good 'ol white knuckle driving.

I'm torn on what to get this week the Brigstone's or the Kumhos ? I dont care about the wet but one thing I want to know is do the Kumhos start to screech pretty loud when your pushing them ?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

LOL!! Yeah, I agree with you on the subjective scores. I STILL say "thanks" for the recommendation on the Star Specs, you didn't steer me wrong! In the dry, I'll see your Kumhos, and raise you some Hoosiers, so I'm not concerned about how the Dunlops hold up there. For me, it was all about how they'd handle the wet.

We ran the South course on Saturday, and yeah, "A River Ran Though It" for sure. I honestly had no real problem getting it up to a hundred, once I realized that I could hang the ass end out a bit and hold it there. With the cycled-out Nittos, that would have just been a spin. Turn one was fine, trail-braked through about half of it, just to bleed down speed for turn two, which was an abject oiled-down, antifreeze-soaked skating rink. I was running the single-apex line through one and two, and as soon as I got past the track-out of one (which was the turn-in for two), the front end would start pushing, so I did the "blip-release" deal on the gas (momentary full lift) in combination with quickly unwinding and rewinding the wheel to get rotation and direction established, then it was time to throttle steer the rear until about halfway to the track out for two (also the turn-in for three, two car-widths out to avoid a small lake), and then things settled down and I had grip again. Even in the dry, at the end of the day, turn two was crap. Got through five with a lift, and seven flat-out, but track-out of ten and thirteen were still pretty ugly. Sometimes you just have to hang on and have faith that the car will go where you want it to... White knuckle driving indeed!

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I'm torn on what to get this week the Brigstone's or the Kumhos ? I dont care about the wet but one thing I want to know is do the Kumhos start to screech pretty loud when your pushing them ?

"I don't care about the wet" says the f'n left-coaster....

Honestly, having just gone through the process of buying tires, I don't think you'd go far wrong with any of them. They're all in the 180-200 treadwear range, so they're soft, with correspondingly less squeal, but I can get decent noise out of the Dunlops, and I could only bet that you would out of the others, as well.

If you believe the subjective part of the Tire Rack review, and are a smooth driver (slow hands!), then it would look like the Kumhos would get the nod, based on the fastest lap times and highest overall grip on the skidpad.

 

[SD07GT]

"I don't care about the wet" says the f'n left-coaster....

Honestly, having just gone through the process of buying tires, I don't think you'd go far wrong with any of them. They're all in the 180-200 treadwear range, so they're soft, with correspondingly less squeal, but I can get decent noise out of the Dunlops, and I could only bet that you would out of the others, as well.

If you believe the subjective part of the Tire Rack review, and are a smooth driver (slow hands!), then it would look like the Kumhos would get the nod, based on the fastest lap times and highest overall grip on the skidpad.

They don't call it Sun Diego for nothing

I never used Dunlop tires in my life , its always been Michelin or BFG ...so this whole switching tire brands is kind of new to me .... The Dunlops are great tires also , like you said you probably cant go wrong with any of them ,


Ill mail you some sun this winter

 

[Kaldar142]

I wonder how the star specs compare to the NT05

 

[Random Asshole]

I'm torn on what to get this week the Brigstone's or the Kumhos ? I dont care about the wet but one thing I want to know is do the Kumhos start to screech pretty loud when your pushing them ?

You won't get the kumhos to squeal on the street. On the race track, you'll start to get them talking. But it is not bad at all compared to the Bridestones that come on the Subie STi's (RE090?). I'm uploading a video of a scooby chasing me at the milwaukee mile right now. His shit is SCREAMING. But you can still hear my exhaust over it. I've only bought one set of bridgestones. They are the Potenza RE050A Pole positions. I purchased them after I flatspotted my kumhos and I only had 24hrs to find tires before my next race. They were the best thing I could get on such short notice. I can't make an accurate comparison between the RE050s and the RE-11s, but these bridgestones felt squishy when trying to go around the banks at 100mph and just didn't hold the ground as well as the kumhos no matter what psi I played with. Looking at the test result charts, the RE-11s results sync up with my feelings about the ones I have. Squishier and slower unless it's raining.
Everyone with driving caliber equal or better than me at the time attacks run ecstas. (including 2 instructors) Any choice you make will not be a terrible one, but if you want close as possible race tire and you need a 140 treadwear rating. The ecstas will not disappoint. BUT, aren't competing or hitting the track often, I'd suggest bridgestones. I did notice quite a bit of difference in ride comfort with my set. They're for sale btw. I'd let them go for a steal to help with shipping. It ain't easy selling summer tires in october in Chicago.

LOL!! Yeah, I agree with you on the subjective scores. I STILL say "thanks" for the recommendation on the Star Specs, you didn't steer me wrong! In the dry, I'll see your Kumhos, and raise you some Hoosiers, so I'm not concerned about how the Dunlops hold up there. For me, it was all about how they'd handle the wet.

I fold. lol. But I'd see your dunlops versus my ecstas on blackhawk any day. I'd love to go head to head. Then we'll see if the hoosiers are like bringin a gun to a knife fight

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I fold. lol. But I'd see your dunlops versus my ecstas on blackhawk any day. I'd love to go head to head. Then we'll see if the hoosiers are like bringin a gun to a knife fight

Deal. First event that comes up, I'll put a six of Stella out as an ante... NASA, MVP, or HookedOnDriving, don't much care which. I can tell you that I'm honestly NOT interested in doing a standing-start one-lap deal like Council does, just too hairy for me with no heat in the brakes or tires. NASA has a tentative 6/12-6/13 weekend, and the other two have nothing posted yet. Any of the three will give us 20+ minute runs, but only NASA can give us open passing (HPDE-4/TT). Are you thinking wheel-to-wheel, lead-follow-then-trade, or lap time format? W2W would be a bit touchy, imo...

 

[Random Asshole]

Deal. First event that comes up, I'll put a six of Stella out as an ante... NASA, MVP, or HookedOnDriving, don't much care which. I can tell you that I'm honestly NOT interested in doing a standing-start one-lap deal like Council does, just too hairy for me with no heat in the brakes or tires. NASA has a tentative 6/12-6/13 weekend, and the other two have nothing posted yet. Any of the three will give us 20+ minute runs, but only NASA can give us open passing (HPDE-4/TT). Are you thinking wheel-to-wheel, lead-follow-then-trade, or lap time format? W2W would be a bit touchy, imo...

Oh I dunno. We'd have to see what we have available as far as race and personal schedules. I personally like the standing start flying finish format, but I also love to spar. I'd be up for a track day and just see how well who hangs with who. But if it's close enough to the point where we can't outright get past each other, lap times would be nice. I don't have the qualifications for any outright w2w event. If there's a NASA event where we are on equal tires and I have a TT license by then, that would work perfect. We can discuss when I drop the shock off. This weekend is halloween, but what about the one after next?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Oh I dunno. We'd have to see what we have available as far as race and personal schedules. I personally like the standing start flying finish format, but I also love to spar. I'd be up for a track day and just see how well who hangs with who. But if it's close enough to the point where we can't outright get past each other, lap times would be nice. I don't have the qualifications for any outright w2w event. If there's a NASA event where we are on equal tires and I have a TT license by then, that would work perfect. We can discuss when I drop the shock off. This weekend is halloween, but what about the one after next?

I don't have a competition license, either, and in any event, neither of our cars would pass comp tech, so the point is moot. Honestly, I think just seeing who hangs with who would work well, and worst case, we can work out lap times based on in-car video, at least to the resolution of 0.033 seconds (one frame, SMPTE 30-frame non-drop rate). If we're THAT close, well, then, I would say it's time to rent a couple of Miatas, hit comp school, and go out W2W...

Did you ever work out what TT class you'd be in? Just curious. Even if you don't have a TT license, as an instructor, it wouldn't be hard for me to get a track pass to run in HPDE-3/4, and we could go heads up there. Gentleman's agreement that traffic invalidates a lap if it's a factor. That way nobody's putting their licenses at risk by being a hoon on the track. If we do a TT session, I'd need to be on the street tires, so it would have to be the first session of the day, which is practice/quals for us. I'm shooting for points for the season next year, so I'll want to be on the Hoosiers for the runs that "count."

 

[trill gear head]

For those of use who are cheap bastards. How would guys rate Sumitomo HRTZ II's as a street tire? I have them now and was satisified with them with my current v6 horsies but don't know how they will take to v8 horsies .

Got any recomendations on tires that are between $100-$125 a tire? I think Sumitomo's are $109 for 275/40/18

 

[SoundGuyDave]

I honestly don't know, but my gut would tell me you're going to be giving up a lot...

The two most "profitable" hardware mods you can make on your car are tires and dampers, in that order... If it's at all possible, go for the good stuff. With a treadwear of 360 (!) that's going to be an awfully hard tire, which will NOT equate to "good grip" in the twisties...

This is one of those places where you need to spend to get results.

 

[AutoXRacer]

I wonder how the star specs compare to the NT05

I would go with the Star Specs...but it depends on your type of racing. I've been told and recommended to stay away from the NT05 for autocrossing. Seems like they need a warm up lap to become sticky.

I would highly recommend a set of Kumho XS.... They are the fo-sheesy!!!

The Star Specs are also a little more expensive than the XS...give them a try, you won't be disappointed!!!