On another (small) forum I commented about how WHOLLY useless shorties are, leaving out in comparison to LTs. This is in response to the OP who laid out a plan for their V6 which includes a ProCharger and shorties. A member, not the OP, and I had this exchange in PM. I think hes out of his tree, just absurd.
I'm not posting my comments about headers and the motors in the S197's anymore ... especially with (name withheld) and all his mechanic drama. (name withheld is NOT the OP, btw)
Here's my take and my challenge to anyone ...
The exhaust on these motors is absolutely outstanding for the displacement. There are no gains from headers, even LT's that don't include "tweaking" AFR, boost or timing ... OBTW you can achieve power gains by tweaking those w/o headers.
Outside of looking/sounding cool ... Headers = CEL's, failed emissions, leaks = PITA
Bigger cubes, poor designs, absolutely ... headers can/do work.
Here's my challenge: When I install the KB after getting back stateside, I will post on any forum the following:
I'm willing to pay for the dyno, datalogging and required adjustments on a boosted 4.6L to test the effects of LT's. Boost/pulley size, AFR, timing will NOT BE changed from the baseline ... and will be documented thru datalogging. This will isolate only the effect of the headers on the performance of the motor. All I ask is for a loner LT setup ... I'll even install them or pay for it.
How many takers do you think I would get ... ???
My response:
"Lol @ "mechanic drama". I dont know what his "credentials" are but I earned my 2 year Auto Tech Degree as well as my ASE Master REcertification and while both of those are many years old Ill go wrench to wrench with ANYone on the board. There could possibly be one(s) that have "done more" as far as the variety of cars theyve worked on or the amount of hands on, tech heavy mods theyve done but Im not worried that theres anyone on here that knows more than me. If there is, great. Its not going to be by a wide margin, thats for sure. Thats not horn blowing, thats just truth. And unless and until someone can conclusively prove to me that Im full of shizz Ill contuinue to feel that way and state such.
That being said, its silly to say on a boosted application that youre NOT going have an increase with LTs over stock, cast iron, log manifolds. If youre saying, "Well its because you have to tune for it", well duh, you have to tune for any direct engine mod on the S197 4.6 unless its one of those 3 cold air kits that are "tuneless (two of which are by the same vendor and just rebadged for the other) and thus otherwise suck.
Theres no way you could run a boosted 4.6 that is tuned well with log manifolds and then run it with LTs WITHOUT a retune and STILL be safe. If you dont evacuate spent gases well you have less available "clean" cylinder volume or conversely if you expel spent gases BETTER youll have more available cylinder volume with which to make power. Additionally, the charge air wont be "contaminated" with leftover gases, or less so for sure, so it works twofold. But, given all that, you HAVE to adjust for it. Thus your "challenge" is unfair because youre demanding that the LTs perform at their best WITHOUT a tune yet the stock manifolds have received a specific tune. Also, the test wouldnt be able to be an exact, direct comparison anyway because of the climatic changes between test days or even just the time it takes to test, then R&R the manifolds and test again.
As far as getting any takers, no you wont, but not because anyone has a vested interest in selling LTs, but simply just because of the logistics of it. Who has a set of LTs laying around just waiting for a test on them and then would be willing to get back used LTs? To prove (or not) your point youd have to finance all this yourself and buy your own set.
Myself, Id NEVER pull a stunt like this and risk the almost INevitable engine damage from a tune NOT written for the LTs. You say AFR wont be changed from the log manifold baseline. Dont worry, it will change on its own to lean, its just a question if it would be "catastrophically" lean. Either way, without changes, its likely the engine would LOSE power. But WITH a proper tune, GUARANTEED the power would be greater than the log manis. The only question for someone is if the gains justitfy the price but THAT question pivots the decision for ANY tech heavy engine mod.
My point is that no MATTER the engine, shorties are a bunch of BS. They DONT provide power in ANY form, they merely "dress up" the engine bay and shave some weight. Ive read/learned from too many people over too many years who DO know more than me to disregard LTs in a boosted application.
As far as the rest of your objections, headers do NOT automatically result in CELs and failed emissions. They will if you dont get a tune AND youre using a catless mid pipe. Without cats and rear O2 sensors, yes, youll throw a code and a CEL. If you tune, you can have the rear O2s turned off. But yes, youll still fail emissions UNLESS your particular location allows for one "Not Ready" parameter. Emissions failure varies from state to state based on how strict or not they are. If theres a visual, then yes, youll fail without cats but again it also depends on how thorough and conscientious the testing station personnel are REGARDLESS of how strict the state standards are or not. Use a catted mid pipe and O2 extenders and youre good to go. You MAY have to use the "spark plug non fouler" mod hack but so what, mission accomplished. Its all up to w/e a person wants to do and the level of effort theyre willing to put forth to acheive the goal. As far as leaks, again, not a universal guarantee. Using high grade gaskets and fasteners will avoid this almost every time. But it IS a mod, a modded car, so if a person wants "no hassle" stock reliabiity they need to STAY stock.
Myself, Im a FIRM believer in not leaving ANYthing on the table, thus when "advice" is sought I speak just like *I* would do. If that doesnt fit a persons goals, wallet or level of effort theyre willing to expend, so be it. Their ride, their choice. But I dont believe in "aiming low" for convenience. Thats why I havent turned a wrench on my car. I dont do shizz half azzed or part way, its all or nothing AND ALL at once, not this "piecemeal" over time crap. I may never get shizz done on my car but when I do it will be ALL done at once exactly how I want it with no compromises or shizz left behind.
My question for you is are you going to have a built block when you go boosted? If not I would ask why even bother with a KB? No matter whose brand of boost or the TYPE of boost, the stock 4.6 is only reliable (consistently but ANYthing CAN happen) to 470ish at the tire. So anyone who boosts a stock block is limited to that no matter where or how the boost comes from.
His response, which to me is so dumb I just stated we wouldnt discuss it further in my final response:
All else being equal, the only way to make more HP is thru AFR and Timing (and RPM potentially). It's cheating to adjust those to a different level and then give credit to the component. Just like CAI's ... the HP is in the tune, not the stupid inlet. Companies won't sell a tune without a CAI ... except for FR, but even they want to get in on some if and offer a filter change as part of the package.
Another way to test is thru flow testing ... if a determined CFM produces XX HP, then it doesn't if the stock manifolds flow it or headers do ... they will both produce the identical HP at the same CFM. I've never seen anyone publish those results either ... SEMA would probably ban whomever did
.
I suspect noone would sign up for the challenge ... but consider this, why haven't the header companies ran "Tech Articles" on their products in the magazines? Isn't it more than coincidence that headers are a part of an overall project ... and when they are installed in isolation, the article never discusses the previous Timing, AFR or RPM levels prior and after the test?
It's more than a coincidence ...
Scavaging is not that big a deal on these small displacement, low rpm motors ... I know the science behind it ... people get too amped up over that.
As far as the KB ... I want this to be a one and done scenario. The KB will never let me down when its time to upgrade the HP ... or at least not to a level I want to achieve.
The internals will be stock initially ... then as I get the rest of the car ready for more HP ... eventually forged internals will follow. Keeping it under 600WHP is the mandate ... KB says I can get to 575WHP with little effort. I like their design ... the look and the price.
My final repsonse:
Well I guess well just have to let this discussion be then. I couldnt disagree with your entire premise any greater than I do already.
Just one question. Youre going to do your build, through all its permutations, on stock, cast iron, log manifolds, yes?
As far as KB, yes, IF a person is going to get an s/c they are the ONLY way to go IF they fully intend to get the MOST out of it by pairing it with a built block. Otherwise, like I say, it doesnt matter who, where or how the boost comes from, youre limited to 470 wheel.
Bottom line, this guys saying w/e power increase comes from LTs is a result of the tune and thus you could get the same results just "tuning more", I guess. Just fucking dumb.
I'm not posting my comments about headers and the motors in the S197's anymore ... especially with (name withheld) and all his mechanic drama. (name withheld is NOT the OP, btw)
Here's my take and my challenge to anyone ...
The exhaust on these motors is absolutely outstanding for the displacement. There are no gains from headers, even LT's that don't include "tweaking" AFR, boost or timing ... OBTW you can achieve power gains by tweaking those w/o headers.
Outside of looking/sounding cool ... Headers = CEL's, failed emissions, leaks = PITA
Bigger cubes, poor designs, absolutely ... headers can/do work.
Here's my challenge: When I install the KB after getting back stateside, I will post on any forum the following:
I'm willing to pay for the dyno, datalogging and required adjustments on a boosted 4.6L to test the effects of LT's. Boost/pulley size, AFR, timing will NOT BE changed from the baseline ... and will be documented thru datalogging. This will isolate only the effect of the headers on the performance of the motor. All I ask is for a loner LT setup ... I'll even install them or pay for it.
How many takers do you think I would get ... ???
My response:
"Lol @ "mechanic drama". I dont know what his "credentials" are but I earned my 2 year Auto Tech Degree as well as my ASE Master REcertification and while both of those are many years old Ill go wrench to wrench with ANYone on the board. There could possibly be one(s) that have "done more" as far as the variety of cars theyve worked on or the amount of hands on, tech heavy mods theyve done but Im not worried that theres anyone on here that knows more than me. If there is, great. Its not going to be by a wide margin, thats for sure. Thats not horn blowing, thats just truth. And unless and until someone can conclusively prove to me that Im full of shizz Ill contuinue to feel that way and state such.
That being said, its silly to say on a boosted application that youre NOT going have an increase with LTs over stock, cast iron, log manifolds. If youre saying, "Well its because you have to tune for it", well duh, you have to tune for any direct engine mod on the S197 4.6 unless its one of those 3 cold air kits that are "tuneless (two of which are by the same vendor and just rebadged for the other) and thus otherwise suck.
Theres no way you could run a boosted 4.6 that is tuned well with log manifolds and then run it with LTs WITHOUT a retune and STILL be safe. If you dont evacuate spent gases well you have less available "clean" cylinder volume or conversely if you expel spent gases BETTER youll have more available cylinder volume with which to make power. Additionally, the charge air wont be "contaminated" with leftover gases, or less so for sure, so it works twofold. But, given all that, you HAVE to adjust for it. Thus your "challenge" is unfair because youre demanding that the LTs perform at their best WITHOUT a tune yet the stock manifolds have received a specific tune. Also, the test wouldnt be able to be an exact, direct comparison anyway because of the climatic changes between test days or even just the time it takes to test, then R&R the manifolds and test again.
As far as getting any takers, no you wont, but not because anyone has a vested interest in selling LTs, but simply just because of the logistics of it. Who has a set of LTs laying around just waiting for a test on them and then would be willing to get back used LTs? To prove (or not) your point youd have to finance all this yourself and buy your own set.
Myself, Id NEVER pull a stunt like this and risk the almost INevitable engine damage from a tune NOT written for the LTs. You say AFR wont be changed from the log manifold baseline. Dont worry, it will change on its own to lean, its just a question if it would be "catastrophically" lean. Either way, without changes, its likely the engine would LOSE power. But WITH a proper tune, GUARANTEED the power would be greater than the log manis. The only question for someone is if the gains justitfy the price but THAT question pivots the decision for ANY tech heavy engine mod.
My point is that no MATTER the engine, shorties are a bunch of BS. They DONT provide power in ANY form, they merely "dress up" the engine bay and shave some weight. Ive read/learned from too many people over too many years who DO know more than me to disregard LTs in a boosted application.
As far as the rest of your objections, headers do NOT automatically result in CELs and failed emissions. They will if you dont get a tune AND youre using a catless mid pipe. Without cats and rear O2 sensors, yes, youll throw a code and a CEL. If you tune, you can have the rear O2s turned off. But yes, youll still fail emissions UNLESS your particular location allows for one "Not Ready" parameter. Emissions failure varies from state to state based on how strict or not they are. If theres a visual, then yes, youll fail without cats but again it also depends on how thorough and conscientious the testing station personnel are REGARDLESS of how strict the state standards are or not. Use a catted mid pipe and O2 extenders and youre good to go. You MAY have to use the "spark plug non fouler" mod hack but so what, mission accomplished. Its all up to w/e a person wants to do and the level of effort theyre willing to put forth to acheive the goal. As far as leaks, again, not a universal guarantee. Using high grade gaskets and fasteners will avoid this almost every time. But it IS a mod, a modded car, so if a person wants "no hassle" stock reliabiity they need to STAY stock.
Myself, Im a FIRM believer in not leaving ANYthing on the table, thus when "advice" is sought I speak just like *I* would do. If that doesnt fit a persons goals, wallet or level of effort theyre willing to expend, so be it. Their ride, their choice. But I dont believe in "aiming low" for convenience. Thats why I havent turned a wrench on my car. I dont do shizz half azzed or part way, its all or nothing AND ALL at once, not this "piecemeal" over time crap. I may never get shizz done on my car but when I do it will be ALL done at once exactly how I want it with no compromises or shizz left behind.
My question for you is are you going to have a built block when you go boosted? If not I would ask why even bother with a KB? No matter whose brand of boost or the TYPE of boost, the stock 4.6 is only reliable (consistently but ANYthing CAN happen) to 470ish at the tire. So anyone who boosts a stock block is limited to that no matter where or how the boost comes from.
His response, which to me is so dumb I just stated we wouldnt discuss it further in my final response:
All else being equal, the only way to make more HP is thru AFR and Timing (and RPM potentially). It's cheating to adjust those to a different level and then give credit to the component. Just like CAI's ... the HP is in the tune, not the stupid inlet. Companies won't sell a tune without a CAI ... except for FR, but even they want to get in on some if and offer a filter change as part of the package.
Another way to test is thru flow testing ... if a determined CFM produces XX HP, then it doesn't if the stock manifolds flow it or headers do ... they will both produce the identical HP at the same CFM. I've never seen anyone publish those results either ... SEMA would probably ban whomever did
. I suspect noone would sign up for the challenge ... but consider this, why haven't the header companies ran "Tech Articles" on their products in the magazines? Isn't it more than coincidence that headers are a part of an overall project ... and when they are installed in isolation, the article never discusses the previous Timing, AFR or RPM levels prior and after the test?
It's more than a coincidence ...
Scavaging is not that big a deal on these small displacement, low rpm motors ... I know the science behind it ... people get too amped up over that.
As far as the KB ... I want this to be a one and done scenario. The KB will never let me down when its time to upgrade the HP ... or at least not to a level I want to achieve.
The internals will be stock initially ... then as I get the rest of the car ready for more HP ... eventually forged internals will follow. Keeping it under 600WHP is the mandate ... KB says I can get to 575WHP with little effort. I like their design ... the look and the price.
My final repsonse:
Well I guess well just have to let this discussion be then. I couldnt disagree with your entire premise any greater than I do already.
Just one question. Youre going to do your build, through all its permutations, on stock, cast iron, log manifolds, yes?
As far as KB, yes, IF a person is going to get an s/c they are the ONLY way to go IF they fully intend to get the MOST out of it by pairing it with a built block. Otherwise, like I say, it doesnt matter who, where or how the boost comes from, youre limited to 470 wheel.
Bottom line, this guys saying w/e power increase comes from LTs is a result of the tune and thus you could get the same results just "tuning more", I guess. Just fucking dumb.
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