492 crank hp on my 2010 with small M90, lt's, + 94 tune. 10 gauge wire used, oem fuel pump. FPDC is now 80%, with blower on + 6 krpm. Oem 73mm ( 2.875") pulley.
Fuel pump differences through 2005 and up
- Thread starter Screamin_dutch
- Start date
492 crank hp on my 2010 with small M90, lt's, + 94 tune. 10 gauge wire used, oem fuel pump. FPDC is now 80%, with blower on + 6 krpm. Oem 73mm ( 2.875") pulley.
46addict
13726548
Not bad. My OE pump was at 93% with a BAP and stock wiring on the same power level.
DW300M pumps were deisgned as a direct plug and play replacement for the ford pump and is rated to 18volts, ethanol compatible, can be run with stock wiring and are a turbine mechanism pump. Turbine pumps are specifically designed for returnless since the speed of the turbine controls the volume output and the speed of the motor is driven by voltage modulated by the fpdm. This dw300m pump is deisgned to be a direct swap on a 3v or gt500 hat as designed for returnless. If you think about it, a smart fuel company would have no reason to design a higher flowing pump to be a direct drop in that didnt work with the oem system anyway. If your looking for a little more overhead, a pump that is fully ethanol compatible, that is bap compatible (to 18 volts) and ease of install the dw300m is still a very viable choice. I personally ran the original generic dw300 pumps, hot rodded them onto a stock fuel hat and ran them on my car for 3-4 years with a bap, no issues. DW took that pump and later designed the drop in dw300m version with year specific install kits for fords. There are part numbers for pump and isntall kits specifically for the car make and year something the aftermarket had never really done well before. I like the dw300m for a dual pump dual fpdm system upgrade, I like a ti auto dcss 400lph series for a single pump upgrade. DW does have a 400lph class pump now as well. Just havent done any testing or have any data for it yet.
When I first got into the fuel stuff I waded through a ton of misinformation (that lingers on today) in this field at high levels (big shops, tuners etc.). The only fuel pump that could not be run in returnless is older gerotor mechanism positive displacement fuel pumps. These are return only pumps that arent deisgned for modulation as continously driving them up and down will damage the gears and cause the pump to quickly fail.
When returnless systems came out this wasn't known, so when hot rodders started swapping in proven aftermarket pumps like a gss(gerotor) 255 walbro, they were failing, then trying other pumps and they were failing. Then oem turbine pumps started flowing better (svt focus, ford gt turbine pump) and shortly after the aftermarket switched to turbine pumps and its not an issue, there just a lot of old information where "aftermarket pumps" just don't work in returnless.
99% of the pumps on the market today are turbine mechanism, ever since oem's started shifting to returnless systems in the early to mid 90's for emmisions and fuel economy (less heat in the fuel means means less vapor/evap and so on). A turbine mechanism pump is a superior deisign that can be used in both situations and produces less heat. Todays performance pumps use composite turbine mechanisms and the dcss have dual composite turbines in parallel and have superior motor materials. Take that with a grain of salt, alot of companies still sell substandard quality products made cheaply overseas and if there is any good aftermarket product, chances are its been cloned and out there on the internet for purchase.
The overarching issue is the physics of a returnless system as you push higher power and boost levels. As flow volume needed goes higher and higher there is more latency in response to load. The returnless system uses pressure to a dead head to drive flow and let's say we do a wot blast to 20psi this in turn will drive the needed delta pressure up, as you know this is acheived by the pumps being pulsed/spun up and then physically moving that fuel volume to support the power level from the tank to the injectors. The higher the pressure the pumps put out the less they can flow and the more this latency starts to show. This is why there is a threshold to the returnless fuel system where tuners can start to see issues with pressure stability and flow loss, causing safety concerns for supporting the plower. This goes for higher flowing pumps as well, pumps that flow a ton at max voltage ramp in flow too quickly for the pcm to control properly. Thats why you cant run do two big 400lph pumps in returnless its too much pump to control with the oem loop/feedback and respond system.
A return system's physics is the opposite, pumps run full on and full volume of fuel is always at the rails to support the power and then set pressure instantly changes with load to adjust (with a boost/vac referenced regulator) so the injectors always deliver the right amount of fuel. So all that happens during that 20psi wot blast is the regulator seemlessly adjusts pressure for the injectors and the volume to support the power is already there and is always there the whole time.
These physics are why removing restriction in a retunless setup yields great results as it becomes easier/faster to get fuel from the tank to rails as load increases. ( line/rail filter upgrades).
A full tilt retunless system for a 3v or gt500 would consist of the following. GT500 dual fpdm fuel system with dw300m pumps and pprv delete. 18 volt pump booster. 8awg wiring for the bap and to the fpdms, 10-12awg wiring from each fpdm to the fuel hat. 8an line/aftermarket high flow filter and aftermarket rails. This is the limit of returnless, if this isn't enough you need a return system plain and simple. From all the setups I have built and seen I put the safe cap of returnless at 750rwhp for these cars.
Here is the kicker, how much money does that above full tilt returnless system cost you? Is doing all that cheaper in the long run then getting a nice aftermarket return kit from the get go? A return system that will support more power, your tuner will love you, fuel pressure is rock solid and volume to support power is always there? Thats the question you have to answer for yourself and your setup.
I pioneered upgrading and improving the 3v's returnless fuel from mild budget to wild, built and tested a dozens of setups and pumps and bits and pieces. Was a great learning expereince and I am still a big fan of beefing up a returnless setup and over doubling what it can do when its the right choice for the goals. That said I have had a return setup on my car for years now. I really dont run more than 550-600hp anymore. I could sell it and go back to a returnless setup. Would I, no.
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/\ /\ That is a ton info to process. I just purchased a GT500 dual pump kit (new) from another member. M-9407-GT05 this is a plug and play kit for 05-09 cars. What you wrote sounds like it could or should be beefed up a bit. Wire size should be improved?
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The gt500 system will support around 650rwhp as it sits. The kit uses a 12awg power wire feed to the relay. I like 10awg for a bigger single pump, and 8awg for dual pumps. It's a nice, easy and cheap upgrade to get more out the system, it reduces pump current, heat and duty cycle, so you get some performance and reliability/life.
Adequate power source and wiring was something overlooked for a long time when it came to upgrading fuel systems.
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What is the GT-500 dual pump setup good for..if used with a dual BAP and big wire, say at least 8 gauge ?
That is subjective to the setup, boost levels, ve, compression, rpm, bsfc, tuned afr, weight, trans, battery/alternator health, lots of factors in otherwords lol
In general a 17-18 volt bap is capable of an additional 100hp on the pump setup. I like to stay average and conservative on all power levels because of varaince from setup to setup. For example seen one of my 400lph pump setups max at 560rwhp on one car and 625rwhp on another car, same pump and wire kit just on a different combo.
When a wire upgrade drops duty cycle it does extend the range. Might be 10-15hp might be 40-50hp every setup will vary. But you are better off than you were. Wire upgrades do show more benefit when you are running higher voltage with a pump booster since current draw from the pump is also increased. The more current a fuel pump draws from either resistance in wiring or resistance in flow path of the pump output the more heat it produces, it is the heat which reduce flow output of the pump.
On average a single pump 10awg wire upgrade (from oem 16awg) to the driver module yields 8-12% reduction in duty cycle of the pump, however going to 8awg sees negligible improvement over what the 10awg did. Thats how you know in that case that 10awg is the right size wire for the setup. A 8awg wire upgrade to 2 pumps or a voltage booster from say a 12awg wire can yield 15-17% reduction in duty cycle, etc.
The setup you decribe is enough to put you at the limits of a returnless system.
Sometimes the better questiuon is what is your end goal. What power, boost level and fuel? What do you want to support or be at, any overhead planned in for varying load? Thats what I start with first before giving advice on what your best option is going to be for your setup.
I mentioned load as thats often overlooked. You car car might be tuned and everythings good on the dyno and running around town. Now put 3 people in the car, some stuff in the trunk and drive up some hills in the mountains into a 35mph head wind. Your engine is now using more fuel to physically move the car and maintain the same speed. Would this cause you pumps to max? Or do you have that overhead to acount for changes in load?
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