Going from dragstrip/street to street/corners

[Boss281]

My 2005 GT 5 speed was modified in 2006 for drag racing, and I raced it hard until about 2011, then wound down a bit and finally garaged it. Over time, many drag only parts (struts/shocks/antirollbars,etc) were replaced with street components to make it as comfortable and reliable as I can for cruising around town. I take it out a bit on weekends and at moderate speed the car is fine although the steering seems overly sensitive and squirrelly on straight aways although the alignment is supposedly dead on (no "road feel"?). When pushed in corners on our rural back roads, the front end really doesn't want to go where I point it and takes some real concentration. I assume that is "understeer" I'm experiencing--remember I'm a straight line guy! So I want it to be more enjoyable when I want to go for run. Ultimately though, I'd love to try an HPDE event such as Friday At The Track at Summit, and see if a life long drag racing mentality can shift a bit and go do cornering for fun. I'm retiring in December, and although drag racing still holds an appeal, my better half enjoys it more when the ride is more than 11 seconds or so. Go figure.

Getting it back to street has been slow as I looked for $$ deals for front and rear suspension pieces to better suit the street and local cruise seen--I wasn't paying attention to quality or intent at the time. I've ended up with the following either carried over from drag racing (to lighten the car) or to replace suspension pieces:

BMR strut tower brace
BMR boxed non-adjustable lower control arms and relocation brackets
BMR adjustable upper control arm
BMR tubular k-member and non-adjustable a-arms
BMR radiator support/front swaybar bracket
BMR adjustable front sway bar
BMR rear sway bar with relocation kit
BMR adjustable panhard bar
Tokico adjustable shocks/struts
Steeda sport springs
American Muscle AMR Wheels Dark Stainless 18x9, 18x10
Continental ExtremeContact DW 255/45-18, 285/40-18

Add in 127500 high lift cams, aluminum intake manifold, cold air kit, long tubes, Hanlon built 3650 5-speed, etc and you have the car. It runs fine especially at high rpm, and while it's been custom tuned for track duty, currently it's on a BAMA tune that seems to just as solid (I bought a new tuner so what the hey).

So with what I have, what can I improve? Air pressures, tire alignment adjustments, adjusting front sway bar (currently in middle setting), shock settings? What's the best path for process of elimination?

That said, what do I have that's shit? I'm reading a lot of complaints about D-Specs, but like I say in my hands they feel fine--I don't know what "better" feels like! Is the staggered set up a problem or the tires or both?

Some guidance, even a book recommendation, would be a good start. And finally, what shops in or near Maryland really know their suspensions on S197 Mustangs? Lots of folks will sell you anything they have, and many shops are dragstrip oriented, but I don't know of any that get the corners. Yet. Thanks in advance, and yes, I have been reading the many many threads that cover bits and pieces of the above...

 

[Sky Render]

Seat time, seat time, seat time.

That is all.

 

[46addict]

If the lady wants the ride to last longer than 11 seconds, let out at the 1000'! Just kidding.

If your steering feels numb you may have worn ball joints and/or tie rods depending on your current mileage.

As for performance goodies I would get some entry level track pads like a Hawk HP+ or their Street/Race version. Carbotech XP8 would be a good choice too. Then fully flush your brake fluid.

What settings are your D specs on? They will be ok until they fail or start leaking.

I would not buy anything else for the car (aside from maintenance items) until you spend more time at the track.

 

[Norm Peterson]

When pushed in corners on our rural back roads, the front end really doesn't want to go where I point it and takes some real concentration. I assume that is "understeer" I'm experiencing--remember I'm a straight line guy! So I want it to be more enjoyable when I want to go for run. Ultimately though, I'd love to try an HPDE event such as Friday At The Track at Summit, and see if a life long drag racing mentality can shift a bit and go do cornering for fun. I'm retiring in December, and although drag racing still holds an appeal, my better half enjoys it more when the ride is more than 11 seconds or so. Go figure.

It's understeer if the car would much rather keep going straight, or takes deliberately more steering input to make the turning happen. It is nice when the car is more willing to take corners, and when it can be placed more precisely than just "somewhere in the lane", or "on the pavement, anyway" if you find yourself hustling it a bit. If it matters, I was 66 when I got at all serious about road course driving, though I had done a bit of autocrossing at various times previously.

BMR strut tower brace
BMR boxed non-adjustable lower control arms and relocation brackets
BMR adjustable upper control arm
BMR tubular k-member and non-adjustable a-arms
BMR radiator support/front swaybar bracket
BMR adjustable front sway bar
BMR rear sway bar with relocation kit
BMR adjustable panhard bar
Tokico adjustable shocks/struts
Steeda sport springs
American Muscle AMR Wheels Dark Stainless 18x9, 18x10
Continental ExtremeContact DW 255/45-18, 285/40-18

I can tell you that you don't need to change all those things to end up with a car that's composed at a decent enough pace on a road course - without becoming unreasonable as a daily driver. By "changed", I mean changed from stock/OE here. My own list is much shorter, and it's been sufficient to support running at the intermediate level. As of my most recent track day, I'd only done front and rear sta-bars, shocks & struts (Koni yellows), rear LCAs with one spherical end and one poly end, front endlinks, wheels & tires, a DIY PHB mod, and a rather fortunate (for me) alignment. Not even springs (though I have changed them since).

"Composed" vehicle behavior is a good thing. It favorably impresses your driving instructors/coaches and track corner workers alike . . . where big speeds and unsettled cornering won't.

Sky's list of one item - seat time - should be heeded. In decreasing order, you can expect lap time improvements to follow a "seat time, tires (and wheels), everything else" sequence.

Cars with 54% or so front weight will generally do better on a road course with same size tires all around, on wheels of equal width all around. It's not until you're at forced induction power levels (with their much bigger torque numbers) that you start considering wider rear tires and wider rear wheels. And if you have to do this, it's for providing a little more cushion against sudden throttle-caused oversteer. Not because a staggered setup is inherently the better handling arrangement (it's not).

I'm a big fan of having both bars adjustable. This allows you to use the rear bar for final handling balance fine-tuning adjustments. You won't probably need this ability right away, but it probably will become a handy tool for eliminating an oversteerish twitch or a too-heavy feel on corner entry. You will want to be able to set cambers more negative than where the dealership or the typical mass-market shop will try to set them.

I'm afraid that I can't suggest any shops anywhere near you (Vorshlag is in Texas, and I do just about all of my own work so other than my local tire guy I'm not even familiar with any in South Jersey).


Norm

 

[Boss281]

Thanks everyone.

Norm, I hear you (60 comes next year). I've drag raced since I was 17 and after squeezing 11s out of an NA small block mod motor, suddenly, just throwing on forced induction and going faster just wasn't fun anymore. Things change.

My '14 Focus ST is probably the biggest influence for considering open track racing. The car is just "planted" for lack of a better word. Bone stock still too. It rides on rails and is poised in corners, and has enough grunt to make it fun. I follow up with my Mustang on the same road and...Jesus, I feel like I'm in a really fast brick.

Spent 4 years in the Navy, 30 years in the federal workforce, and I'm retiring in another month or so. I'll have a lot of time to work on the car and pursue going fast. I'm going to try to get one HPDE in this Fall, join NASA and start working on it. I'm behind the curve on corner carving hardware (I mean, everyone hates the dspecs. WHY???? So what's "better" WHY?) but I'll just keep reading and researching.

Seat time. I told a lot of drag racing beginners the same thing dozens of times over the years. I get it...

Thanks.

 

[Pentalab]

Replace the front 255-45-18's on the 9" rims..... with 285-40-18's on 10" rims. Staggered just enhances understeer. Sure, you can tweak the rear sway bar to loosen the back end up, to balance it up.... but that's a band aid fix imo. The real issue is the front tires are not wide enough.
IE: square setup, with 285's on all 4 x corners. Way less understeer, plus you can then rotate the tires. The car will feel more planted. Then start tweaking front + rear sway bars / struts /shocks/ tire pressures etc.

I don't see adjustable camber on your list. The car will handle a helluva lot better when you have -1.5 degs of camber dialed in. You are dead in the water with no neg camber dialed in. I used the steeda HD front strut mounts..which allow for camber adj. Several other's also make adj camber plates /strut mounts. Some are also adj camber + caster. Lot's to pick from. I'd avoid camber bolts though. Replace the oem front strut mounts with real ones.

You have already proven the car doesn't handle on back roads vs your focus, so more seat time on the back roads...or on the track will just further verify the current handling is less than optimum.

 

[Speedboosted]

Any particular reason for not wanting to track the ST?

As for your car, Vince nailed it. Seat time is key. You could have bought an ex-PWC car and still be slower than someone experienced in as stock mustang. There is nothing immediately wrong with the D-Specs, other than they don't have great valving and don't last long when truly worked at a road course. Of course, these are things that do not matter until you've got more time under your belt. When the time comes, replace them with Bilsteins as they are superior in every way. Inverted, shortened mono tube dampers that last seemingly forever. They also ride like a dream, even with stiff springs up front on my car. The D specs are twin tube and not shortened, so when paired with lowering springs, you lose distance in bump travel.

For control arms, get the BMR TCA021 or the new Whiteline double adjustable units with the Max-C bushing. Either one provides the movement of a spherical end but with much less noise than a double spherical setup. The bmr ones you currently have will bind up a lot and cause bushings to snap back. Everything else on the chassis is OK. People won't like the all the tubular front end pieces, but as long as they're fairly new you won't have any problems for occasional track days.

I didn't see anything listed for brakes...get some 4 piston brembo takeoffs with good track pads (Carbotech/GLoc makes good stuff, I'm happy with Porterfield, others like Raybestos or Stoptech, etc. Generally, stay away from most Hawks). Also swap to quality DOT fluid as well (Motul, Stoptech, Wilwood).

Your engine is great, and the cams will be badass at the track since you'll be in their power band pretty much the whole time anyway. What are the gear ratios in your trans, and what gears do you have in the rear?

The staggered wheel setup is meh, but at least you have good tires. Overall, the car will do just fine as is your first few times out but you need to address the brakes before you go. You don't immediately need to get Brembo's, but you do need to get track compound pads for the front and good fluid. I have some really nice track pads for the 2 piston calipers that I won't be using anymore.

 

[Sky Render]

There is nothing wrong with his current LCAs.

 

[Norm Peterson]

With poly/poly rear LCAs and the UCA there is still a little multi-axis rotation going on, which (a) leads to rear load transfer that's generally unwanted because it can't readily be 'tuned', and (b) beats up on the poly bits themselves.

Ford mitigates this via softish (and voided) rubber. I suspect that Whiteline's approach is along a similar line of thinking - the bushings being shaped or otherwise detailed to allow small amounts of off-axis rotation without developing large forces in the process. Most other aftermarket solutions involve a spherical of some sort to decouple torsion from along the arm entirely. Sphericals don't have to be all-metal rod ends.


On relo brackets . . . I'll suggest setting at the mildest adjustment possible (highest set of holes). On a road course, rear axle steering effects are more important than improving launch performance, and at the novice level building in any tendency for tailhappiness that comes with launch-aggressive relo settings isn't going to make for friendly handling when you do get out near the limits of tire grip.


Norm

 

[Pentalab]

On relo brackets . . . I'll suggest setting at the mildest adjustment possible (highest set of holes). On a road course, rear axle steering effects are more important than improving launch performance, and at the novice level building in any tendency for tailhappiness that comes with launch-aggressive relo settings isn't going to make for friendly handling when you do get out near the limits of tire grip.


Norm

If he has the rear lowered 1 - 1.5", and no LCA relocation bracket used, the LCA's will be higher at axle end. Get into the gas pedal, and you end up taking weight off the rear axle. I had that setup for a while, it was a disaster in the wet, dangerous. It would pull to the left. Pronounced wheel hop too. After almost losing it 4-5 times around town in the wet, in went the BMR adj UCA / fixed length LCA's + BMR lca relocate brackets.... initially on the top holes. No more problems in the rain /wet , and no more wheel hop. After a year, shifted down to the middle holes. The BMR relocate brackets provide for a 2-3-4" drop. The FRPP / whiteline relocate brackets provide for a fixed 3" drop.

With a 1- 1.5" rear spring drop, and top holes (2" drop) used in the lca relocate brackets, the lca's end up slightly lower at axle end. (1" - .5")
Middle holes will result in lca's 2" - 1.5" lower at axle.

Don't use the very bottom holes. Opposite of wheel hop is brake hop.
Depending on rear spring drop, top holes will always work, and a good place to initially set them.

 

[Sky Render]

Good grief; do you read before you post? Norm was saying to use the highest hole on the brackets, meaning when the car is lowered, the arms would be parallel to the ground.

 

[Boss281]

Adjusting the LCAs never occurred to me. I'll have to read up on that after reading again carefully the notes above. Interesting.

Couple of answers: no, I don't have caster/camber plates installed. They are in the basement though waiting for me. I have the brembo upgrade on the front. Had to move off my favorite wheel and move to the current set up to fit around them. Pads seem to suck--I see rec's above. And fluid. I will also have to see about whether this wheel is still available from AM in 18x10, after reading some threads on fitment with 285/40-18s installed up front. When I had the same tire in 275/40-18 on all four corners many years ago, I don't recall the squirrelly tracking problem I have now.

Well, this is why I started keeping a racing log way back in the 80s for drag racing. Just need to start a new one for this. I'll keep everything I have for now except moving to a different brake pad, putting in the caster/camber plates. Glad I kept the car despite getting a 2011 which I later unloaded.

 

[Boss281]

Any particular reason for not wanting to track the ST?

It's my daily driver for the next 6 weeks or so until I retire from federal service (4 years navy, 30 years feds--man it's been a longggggg career!). While I'm sure I'll work locally, I need to pick up a used truck to get around in since the last 5 years the snowfalls have been getting progressively worse.

Good question, not sure what will happen to the car. Maybe give it to one of my sons...

 

[Sky Render]

What brake pads do you have? And how do they suck?

For info on adjusting your control arms for Corner Carving, read this:
http://www.motoiq.com/MagazineArtic...ptimizing-weight-transfer-and-roll-steer.aspx

The most stability is achieved with your LCAs parallel to the ground. Having them slanting "up" towards the axle is just awful from all respects. Having them sloping "down" is awesome for autocross but may not be desirable for road course use.

 

[46addict]

Unless your heart is set on keeping your current struts, I would wait to install your CC plates until you're ready to replace the shocks/struts with something else if you are remotely considering going that route. For instance if you decide to run coilovers later on, you could sell the plates brand new in box. Even if you retained the OE strut setup, you will have to transfer your CC plates to the new struts you buy.

 

[Boss281]

Hi Vince. I just went out and double checked and the LCA *is* parallel to the ground--that's the setting I used for drag racing but I did need to check as it's been years since I actually looked at them with the car flat on the garage floor. Thanks for the article reference as there is a LOT on this site for tonight's reading. Bookmarked.

I upgraded the front brakes to the brembo kit (M-2300-S) recently. My expectation was a better experience than what I get from the stock rotors and Hawk HPS pads--coming down from speed has been white knuckle at times. My Focus ST brakes are stellar, and really bring the car down from speed. With the pads included in the Brembo kit on the Mustang, frankly, I just expected better. Without an exercise to actually measure the braking distance my observation is seat of the pants, but I am so far underwhelmed.

Again, thanks for taking the time to chime in...

 

[Sky Render]

Did you also upgrade to stainless lines?

 

[Sky Render]

Since you're in central MD:

http://www.capitaldrivingclub.com/schedule.php

You should come out to an event and see what your car can do.

 

[Boss281]

Did you also upgrade to stainless lines?

Yep!

 

[Boss281]

Since you're in central MD:

http://www.capitaldrivingclub.com/schedule.php

You should come out to an event and see what your car can do.

I just put the 16th of October on my calendar for the test and tune.