Lower Control Arm questions

[J.Kidd]

LCAs are next on my list (currently running Steeda Sport springs).

In general, I would like to improve the handling and grip of the car (daily-driven car with "spirited, aggressive interludes" - maybe an autocross in my near future...but not at a competition level).

1) First question has to do with the offset.
How important is it that I get aftermarket LCAs with the this offset?
I know Steeda and BMR advertise that theirs have this offset.

2) Billet aluminum vs. steel/chrome-moly steel? I know the steel would be stronger, but the aluminum looks pretty nice. For my car (under 500 hp), would the strength of steel vs. aluminum be a factor?

3) Roto-joint: seems like a very beneficial feature. Would having this roto-joint eliminate the need for the factory offset?

4) How important are reasable bushings?

My list:
A) BBR billet LCAs
pros: 3-piece bushings, fancy looking, relatively inexpensive
cons: no offset, no roto-joint, no zerk fitting for greasing bushings

B) UMI tubular with roto-joint
pros: roto-joint, stronger, zerk fittings, tubular and not boxed steel
cons: no offset

3) Steeda billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset
cons: no zerk fitting

4) BMR billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset, zerk fittings
cons: most expensive


Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[SteveP]

LCAs are next on my list (currently running Steeda Sport springs).

In general, I would like to improve the handling and grip of the car (daily-driven car with "spirited, aggressive interludes" - maybe an autocross in my near future...but not at a competition level).

1) First question has to do with the offset.
How important is it that I get aftermarket LCAs with the this offset?
I know Steeda and BMR advertise that theirs have this offset.

2) Billet aluminum vs. steel/chrome-moly steel? I know the steel would be stronger, but the aluminum looks pretty nice. For my car (under 500 hp), would the strength of steel vs. aluminum be a factor?

3) Roto-joint: seems like a very beneficial feature. Would having this roto-joint eliminate the need for the factory offset?

4) How important are reasable bushings?

My list:
A) BBR billet LCAs
pros: 3-piece bushings, fancy looking, relatively inexpensive
cons: no offset, no roto-joint, no zerk fitting for greasing bushings

B) UMI tubular with roto-joint
pros: roto-joint, stronger, zerk fittings, tubular and not boxed steel
cons: no offset

3) Steeda billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset
cons: no zerk fitting

4) BMR billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset, zerk fittings
cons: most expensive


Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

They are offset and it comes with a shim to equal itself out. Works great with out customers too. (noticed a difference from the BBR from the STEEDA)

Billet Alum is actually stronger then you think my friend. Also a noticeable difference in weight.

We stopped with the fitting for grease because to many people would overfill them and blow the bushings out or apart. We took the time to prep them so (the customer) can easily just install them.

And roto-joints (spherical), thats a different type of control arm all together. BUT, we can have them made no problem. (they are noisy)

any other questions about our LCA's, please feel free to call or PM

 

[BMR Tech]

LCAs are next on my list (currently running Steeda Sport springs).

In general, I would like to improve the handling and grip of the car (daily-driven car with "spirited, aggressive interludes" - maybe an autocross in my near future...but not at a competition level).

1) First question has to do with the offset.
How important is it that I get aftermarket LCAs with the this offset?
I know Steeda and BMR advertise that theirs have this offset.

The offset that companies integrate into their design, is based off of the factory design. The factory arms have the offset built into them. As far as function, it is due to the alignment of the body/chassis mounting point in relation to the mounting point on the axle side. If you put an arm with no offset in it, the bushings will be "bound" up. I can draw a quick picture in paint (I will actually) and post it to show you.

2) Billet aluminum vs. steel/chrome-moly steel? I know the steel would be stronger, but the aluminum looks pretty nice. For my car (under 500 hp), would the strength of steel vs. aluminum be a factor?

Strength in my opinion, is not really an important factor right now for you. Yes, the billet aluminum pieces will be stronger than the welded metal, but breaking a steel lower control arm (from a quality company) is pretty rare.

3) Roto-joint: seems like a very beneficial feature. Would having this roto-joint eliminate the need for the factory offset?

Not necessarily. A properly designed rod-end with an offset bushing would outperform a roto-joint with no offset.

4) How important are reasable bushings?

Are you referring to poly? We believe in having greasable bushings on all of our suspension (moving) products that have poly urethane bushings. There are many pros to having a properly greased bushing. Noise reduction, heat dissipation, durability, and the list goes on.

My list:
A) BBR billet LCAs
pros: 3-piece bushings, fancy looking, relatively inexpensive
cons: no offset, no roto-joint, no zerk fitting for greasing bushings

B) UMI tubular with roto-joint
pros: roto-joint, stronger, zerk fittings, tubular and not boxed steel
cons: no offset

3) Steeda billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset
cons: no zerk fitting

4) BMR billet LCAs
pros: built-in offset, zerk fittings
cons: most expensive

All of these arms listed perform well. I would say that budget, and use will play the largest factor. Our Billet arms are more costly due to the process they are put through, after machining. I will say this, our TCA019 will perform just as good as our ACA004 Billet arm. The ACA004 is for the customer who wants the best of the best, as far as quality and looks.

Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

All of this being said, I highly recommend a "combo" bushing set-up for your application. I would love for you to consider or purchase our ACA004 arms.....however, a spherical bearing on the axle side with a poly bushing up front, in my opinion, will suite your needs a little better. You want to allow for articulation, and the spherical bearing will deliver.

BMR S197 Boxed Lower Control Arms, Spherical / Poly Combo

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

Good luck in your endeavors!!!!

 

[BMR Tech]

A: Proper Angle
B: If centering, this would need to be the proper design, which I do not think anyone makes a style like this
C: A little over exaggeration, but this is the affect of putting a "centered" style arm in the factory S197 position.

Although not proper, you can get by with using a spherical, rod-end, or any other type of "joint" in the place of the poly, and it would work.

Please excuse my lack of artistry, as I am a gear head...no an artist.

Hope that helps!

 

[SteveP]

haha. thats a A for effort man. lol

 

[Sleeper_08]

If you are looking for handling then you want a poly bushing on the chassis end and some kind of rod end or roto joint on the axle end.

This is because when the car rolls with poly on both ends they resist the rolling, add to the roll stiffness and get chewed up.

Whatever you buy will require periodic maintenance.

Aluminium LCAs are only for bling - get steel and spend the money saved on something else.

 

[DRock]

Poly/rod end combo LCA's are your best bet. Don't add that much noise at all and real makes a difference.

 

[SteveP]

If you are looking for handling then you want a poly bushing on the chassis end and some kind of rod end or roto joint on the axle end.

This is because when the car rolls with poly on both ends they resist the rolling, add to the roll stiffness and get chewed up.

Whatever you buy will require periodic maintenance.

Aluminium LCAs are only for bling - get steel and spend the money saved on something else.

please explain this in more detail.

 

[Sam Strano]

I'm just going to point out that UMI's do indeed have the offset....

I sell UMI and Steeda, and a few others too like Hotchkis and Edelbrock etc but really never sell them as the first two have about every option I'd want or use.

Roto-joints are different than regular rod-ends. One perk is that they are serviceable and tensionable to keep noise down. Also they have greater surface area than does a rod-end which also helps noise. Are they completely silent, I wouldn't say that but very few seem to notice or care and they are a marked improvement in noise vs. a rod-end type.

Steeda's Billet with the one bearing have proven to be great, and worth the price. It's a very high end spherical bearing that I've yet to hear anyone complain of any noise from yet.

 

[Sharad]

If you are looking for handling then you want a poly bushing on the chassis end and some kind of rod end or roto joint on the axle end.

This is because when the car rolls with poly on both ends they resist the rolling, add to the roll stiffness and get chewed up.

Whatever you buy will require periodic maintenance.

Aluminium LCAs are only for bling - get steel and spend the money saved on something else.

^^I'm with this guy. (although our arm is spherical on the body side and poly on the axle side)

http://www.uprproducts.com/mustang-chrome-moly-single-adjustable-lower-control-arms-street-05.html

 

[BMR Tech]

All of this being said, I highly recommend a "combo" bushing set-up for your application. I would love for you to consider or purchase our ACA004 arms.....however, a spherical bearing on the axle side with a poly bushing up front, in my opinion, will suite your needs a little better. You want to allow for articulation, and the spherical bearing will deliver.

BMR S197 Boxed Lower Control Arms, Spherical / Poly Combo

If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask.

Good luck in your endeavors!!!!

So, everyone agrees with me.

Excellent!

 

[UMI Performance]

B) UMI tubular with roto-joint
pros: roto-joint, stronger, zerk fittings, tubular and not boxed steel
cons: no offset

Hello,

Thanks for the considering our product.

Just to clarify, Like Sam mentioned our control arms are offset correctly for the Mustang, we do not use spacers or require the control arm to be placed in an angle. If you look at the picture I have linked below you will see the tubing is offset on the Roto-Joint end.

Our part #1057 is very popular, it offers the comfort of the polyurethane bushing while the articulation of the Roto-Joint. Unlike a spherical bearing the Roto-Joint uses a Delrin race to absorb more harshness. You can set the tension on them, tighten them if they wear and rebuild them if ever needed. The control along along with the Roto-joint is all built by us as well.

If I can answer anymore questions please let myself or Sam know and we are glad to help.

 

[kevinatfms]

i have the UMI poly/poly rear end parts and also subframe connectors and love them. when i bought mine i didnt have the option of the roto joint but if i ever do need to upgrade or replace my rear LCA's i will be going back with UMI for that.

i do grease my bushings every other oil/filter change as to keep them lubed up.

 

[argonaut]

Holy chit, I've never seen so many vendors and manufacturers respond in one thread before!

I'll ask questions no one else has: what other mods do you have and why do you think you need new LCAs? What are your expectations out of them?

 

[SteveP]

A simple way to put it is helping with the wheel hop. The stock LCA's are not that strong at all. And the rubber bushings flex to much. It doesn't allow a good transfer of weight when trying to launch.

I can speak for anyone who makes their own and say anyone's LCA will be a 100% improvement over factory LCA's.

We(BBR), BMR, STEEDA, UMI, ect all make very good LCA's and they all work!

 

[Sam Strano]

This is getting a little less techy than I'd like.

Being that this is the corner carving section, let me ask you what the reason is for wanting to put LCA's on the car? Lowering tends to kill most all, if not all wheelhop on anything short of a car that's drag raced. I don't have different LCA's on my car (not allowed, but also not needed, no issue present that they'd solve). And make no mistake, some types of LCA's can actually hurt handling, not help it.

 

[J.Kidd]

Being that this is the corner carving section, let me ask you what the reason is for wanting to put LCA's on the car? Lowering tends to kill most all, if not all wheelhop on anything short of a car that's drag raced. I don't have different LCA's on my car (not allowed, but also not needed, no issue present that they'd solve). And make no mistake, some types of LCA's can actually hurt handling, not help it.

"In general, I would like to improve the handling and grip of the car (daily-driven car with "spirited, aggressive interludes" - maybe an autocross or a track day/driving school (Limerock Park) in my near future...but not at a competition level)."

I'm considering LCAs because it seems like a popular, relatively inexpensive and easy mod to improve the handling of the car. I'd like to pick something that allows the suspension to articulate properly and possibly give me a little more bite. Sam, your advice to me has been spot on in the past and I've been more than happy with the improvements I've made based on your suggestions. I don't want to do anything to hurt the performance of the car, only improve it.

Thanks to ALL who have responded - I know for a fact I am now MUCH more educated on LCAs (diagrams and all . I just want to research this to death before I make a commitment so I am comfortable that I am doing the right things and getting the right parts to meet my goals.

 

[BMR Tech]

I'm just going to point out that UMI's do indeed have the offset....

I sell UMI and Steeda, and a few others too like Hotchkis and Edelbrock etc but really never sell them as the first two have about every option I'd want or use.

Roto-joints are different than regular rod-ends. One perk is that they are serviceable and tensionable to keep noise down. Also they have greater surface area than does a rod-end which also helps noise. Are they completely silent, I wouldn't say that but very few seem to notice or care and they are a marked improvement in noise vs. a rod-end type.

Steeda's Billet with the one bearing have proven to be great, and worth the price. It's a very high end spherical bearing that I've yet to hear anyone complain of any noise from yet.

This is getting a little less techy than I'd like.

Being that this is the corner carving section, let me ask you what the reason is for wanting to put LCA's on the car? Lowering tends to kill most all, if not all wheelhop on anything short of a car that's drag raced. I don't have different LCA's on my car (not allowed, but also not needed, no issue present that they'd solve). And make no mistake, some types of LCA's can actually hurt handling, not help it.

I think the OP has received excellent answers from multiple sources. Even your first reply was pretty informative, to an extent.

Indeed, some LCA designs are not optimal for someone looking to win national championships in a limited class, years after year. There is also no disputing the fact that an aftermarket set of LCA's is a true upgrade in comparison to a stock set.

Not everyone is 100% dedicated to racing around cones in a parking lot,(notice the OP stated he may attend AN autocross) so there will always be other variables to consider when providing a customer with solid information, such as the recommendations to the OP to use a combo style LCA.

Increasing the rigidity of the system that transfers energy/power to move the chassis, is a proven benefit. Decreasing/reducing deflection, and improving articulation provides benefits, does it not? That is what a quality "combo" style LCA will provide.

The manufacturers of the LCA that you sell, would probably agree.

 

[BMR Tech]

"In general, I would like to improve the handling and grip of the car (daily-driven car with "spirited, aggressive interludes" - maybe an autocross or a track day/driving school (Limerock Park) in my near future...but not at a competition level)."

I'm considering LCAs because it seems like a popular, relatively inexpensive and easy mod to improve the handling of the car. I'd like to pick something that allows the suspension to articulate properly and possibly give me a little more bite. Sam, your advice to me has been spot on in the past and I've been more than happy with the improvements I've made based on your suggestions. I don't want to do anything to hurt the performance of the car, only improve it.

Thanks to ALL who have responded - I know for a fact I am now MUCH more educated on LCAs (diagrams and all . I just want to research this to death before I make a commitment so I am comfortable that I am doing the right things and getting the right parts to meet my goals.

No problem! I am glad to be of ANY help that I can be.

I saw your PM, I will check it now.

Thanks!

 

[Sam Strano]

I think the OP has received excellent answers from multiple sources. Even your first reply was pretty informative, to an extent.

Indeed, some LCA designs are not optimal for someone looking to win national championships in a limited class, years after year. There is also no disputing the fact that an aftermarket set of LCA's is a true upgrade in comparison to a stock set.

Not everyone is 100% dedicated to racing around cones in a parking lot,(notice the OP stated he may attend AN autocross) so there will always be other variables to consider when providing a customer with solid information, such as the recommendations to the OP to use a combo style LCA.

Increasing the rigidity of the system that transfers energy/power to move the chassis, is a proven benefit. Decreasing/reducing deflection, and improving articulation provides benefits, does it not? That is what a quality "combo" style LCA will provide.

The manufacturers of the LCA that you sell, would probably agree.

To be fair Kelly, I get a little tired of hearing about how I race around cones in a parking lot. What that means is I make cars handle. I routinely saw 1.3g steady state this year with peaks of 1.5. That's how I choose to validate my work, it's accessible, and I can prove what I do.

No, not everyone does it. But this is section, after all, is titled "Corner Carver Racing Tech Discussion". So with all due respect I think what I do it pretty pertinent to the conversation.

In the last few weeks there has been an influx of vendors popping up in here. I'm one, but I've been here for years not a few weeks and oh yeah, I you know, carve corners too. I'm fine you being around, but I really don't appreciate the attitude about what I do, or the fact I do it in, what was it? Oh yeah, "a limited class, years after year."

I disagree COMPLETELY with your notion that "There is also no disputing the fact that an aftermarket set of LCA's is a true upgrade in comparison to a stock set." Sorry, it's crap to state something to all encompassing... and here's why: I believe, and run my business accordingly that good parts (true upgrades in your terms) are those that actually do something to help you. While I don't sell as many parts because of my belief in that principal, I sleep very well at night and a lot of customers seem to appreciate it. But in simple, practical terms, if it ain't broke I'm not recommending the parts to fix it.

Are there times that LCA upgrades help? Sure. Generally those aren't found in the handling and corner carving sections. You know? If the guy was in the Drag section, or was complaining of bad wheel-hop, etc... then that'd be a different story, but he's not. Maybe he has a hop issue but I have not seen that stated and hate to assume too much. Having said that, I'll add that wheel-hop tends to be hugely diminished, often eliminated, on cars that are lowered. Again, he hasn't stated if that's the case or not, but I find it shameful that hardly anyone knows that because there is so much propaganda (and make no mistake, that's what it is) that anytime you lower a car you need to put on LCA's and/or LCA brackets to fit the problem that supposedly was created.

If you want to discuss things, that's fine. But you are a big out of line IMHO coming into the cornering section and calling me out on, cornering. I know you all like to tell everyone how you make cars handle. Fine, but I prove it year in and out, running around those stupid cones, validating my work.... and without aftermarket LCA's (which I sell too, when/if they are necessary).

My apologies, this just rubbed me a little the wrong way.