2011 Mustang GT track log

Rabee

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Neema, a surprise for you

Drive magazine testing Cortex JRi suspension package!!!
I have no affiliation with Cortex

http://youtu.be/DOOS1Clt6KQ


It is funny how he is hysterically amazed, but unfortunately not providing any technical info or lap times
 
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Norm Peterson

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I'm expecting Barbaro to be dropping in momentarily.

Funny thing is, I watched that same video over on Camaro5 last night, where the main focus was on the importance of brakes (HOD's David Ray, about 4:35), with an acknowledgement that the front suspensions really aren't all that different.

Edit - it was interesting to hear the author's comment that handling issues aren't the rear axle's fault. But I don't think they put enough mention into bushings and such.


Norm
 
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neema

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Neema, a surprise for you

Drive magazine testing Cortex JRi suspension package!!!
I have no affiliation with Cortex

http://youtu.be/DOOS1Clt6KQ


It is funny how he is hysterically amazed, but unfortunately not providing any technical info or lap times

Maybe I'm too critical, but watching subjective stuff gets boring. That was a golden opportunity to time some before/after laps! While I think it's great that Cortex (or any shop) got some exposure, I enjoy the technical side of things.

I'd be interested to see what his lap times were.
 

zquez

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Maybe I'm too critical, but watching subjective stuff gets boring. That was a golden opportunity to time some before/after laps! While I think it's great that Cortex (or any shop) got some exposure, I enjoy the technical side of things.

I'd be interested to see what his lap times were.

Ditto. Many of the videos like that I watch are driven by people who just tend to scream 'amateur.' I almost can't even take what they're saying seriously. It's great that he felt the car was better, but without any lap time comparisons or even a thorough overview of what was done to the car, its all subjective. And when the subjective opinion is coming from guys who don't grip the steering wheel right or heel toe you have to wonder if that opinion is worth the air it took to express it.
 

neema

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And when the subjective opinion is coming from guys who don't grip the steering wheel right or heel toe you have to wonder if that opinion is worth the air it took to express it.


My thoughts exactly. You can tell those videos are directed to a different crowd though. We are not the target audience.
 

csamsh

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But I don't think they put enough mention into bushings and such.


Norm

After putting some better bushings on my car, most notable the sphericals in the UCA, yeah I'm a believer in bushings. I never thought they could make as much of a difference as they apparently do
 

Vorshlag-Fair

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Neema, a surprise for you

Drive magazine testing Cortex JRi suspension package!!!
I have no affiliation with Cortex

http://youtu.be/DOOS1Clt6KQ


It is funny how he is hysterically amazed, but unfortunately not providing any technical info or lap times

Yes, it was hysterical. Not knocking on Cortex or their parts, not at all, but that video "review" had ZERO data and was a waste of 10 minutes of viewing. Such a great opportunity wasted - they could have showed the before and after lap times, data logging, SOME THING! Gah, towards the end of the video I was yelling at my computer screen. :mad2:

But for the average internet audience (not this sub-forum!) I'm sure it is being lapped up.... :2g1c:

Maybe I'm too critical, but watching subjective stuff gets boring. That was a golden opportunity to time some before/after laps! While I think it's great that Cortex (or any shop) got some exposure, I enjoy the technical side of things.

I'd be interested to see what his lap times were.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! Ding! My thoughts exactly.

Ditto. Many of the videos like that I watch are driven by people who just tend to scream 'amateur.' I almost can't even take what they're saying seriously. It's great that he felt the car was better, but without any lap time comparisons or even a thorough overview of what was done to the car, its all subjective. And when the subjective opinion is coming from guys who don't grip the steering wheel right or heel toe you have to wonder if that opinion is worth the air it took to express it.

No doubt! He was freagin driving with one hand on the wheel and one on the shifter!!! This is terrible form and MAJOR pet peeve of mine. Whenever I instruct with NASA HPDE or other track students I tell them before we even go out on track that I would prefer they kept their hands at 3 and 9 o'clock, but if I catch them with their hand on the shifter for more than ONE SECOND during a shift I will say the word "hands". The shifter is not a grab handle. If they ignore that warning more than twice then I quickly slap their hand and say "HANDS!" You can't control the steering wheel for shit with one hand on the shifter!

"DUUUUDE! That's righteous, son!" - after the third time he said that I wanted to mute the video. I kept waiting for the tech. Maybe at the end, they will give lap times? At least that HOT ROD/TireRack street tire test had a BRIEF moment of data, with the lap times. There were major technical deficiencies in that video, but that 2 second screenshot of lap times mostly redeemed it.

tiretest-M.jpg


Still full of useless fluff, but it has some data: Six-Way Handling Tire Test: Outrunning a BMW with a Muscle Car! - HOT ROD Unlimited Ep. 44



For such such good camera work, sound work and editing that Muscle Evolved video gets two thumbs down. I will briefly touch on the odd selection of parts updates they chose to do for this supposed track test:

  • Keeping the stock wheels and tires?! This is the NUMBER ONE big giant huge track time upgrade and was TOTALLY missed! I won't even try to sell a swaybar to an S197 track customer without getting them off the boat anchor stock wheels and craptastic and skinny Pirelli tires.
  • Removing 14" Brembo calipers and rotors for... 14" Wilwood calipers and rotors? WTF? That is a huge expense for a minimal (or non-existent) "upgrade". It might be "ones of pounds" lighter, but they left the 30+ pound stock wheels in place, so losing weight couldn't have been a goal.
  • Did they do any front brake cooling? What brake pads? Fluid?
  • A big honking Torque Arm added to a S197 with proper 3-link rear suspensions, for track use ...???
  • What spring rates did they use? What were those camber plates that took 2 people to install? What alignment settings did they get to? Swaybar sizes?
There was just about a total lack of data. It seemed more like a commerical for things one shop likes to sell to people, and not necessarily the best parts they could offer for big track upgrades. It was by no means a technical review of anything. Hugely wasted opportunity, and if I was Cortex I'd be pissed...
 

zquez

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Mike Musto joined the thread in BMO forum and he explained about the video, there was almost 4 sec drop in lap time on stock tires!!!!

http://bossmustangsonline.com/index.php?topic=7551.0

They were Michelin PSS's, not stock tires.

Of note:
FYI - before I moved to the West Coast I was an instructor with NASA for years.

LOL Wouldn't have known based on the video. I guess he was just filming a Sunday drive on the racetrack rather than proper driving techniques in a simulated race environment.

After 4 hours of sleep, we drove 150 miles BACK to LS and ran again. My best times where in the low 1:44s with NO FINE TUNING, a simple shop alignment, a 250 lb camera man in the right seat and 40lbs of camera gear suction cupped to the car.

Excuses are like... well, you know. Show or not, I'd have clamored for a gopro on the roof and free reign to see what I could do with new suspension. No reason to cart the fat camera guy and all his stuff for every session.


He does readily admit that the video's intended audience is not the true track junkies. I guess his audience is the internet armchair racers like the guy in the comments who said Mustangs had bad handling and he'd rather have a camaro or a corvette. Oh and that you'll never win any races or set lap records in a muscle car. Yeah, those guys.
 

neema

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Signed up for Buttonwillow next weekend to give myself a deadline. Watts link, axle seals, and ride height setup needs to be done by then.
 

Rabee

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Neema, do not forget a review and a video please. Thnx
 

Whiskey11

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  • Keeping the stock wheels and tires?! This is the NUMBER ONE big giant huge track time upgrade and was TOTALLY missed! I won't even try to sell a swaybar to an S197 track customer without getting them off the boat anchor stock wheels and craptastic and skinny Pirelli tires.
  • Removing 14" Brembo calipers and rotors for... 14" Wilwood calipers and rotors? WTF? That is a huge expense for a minimal (or non-existent) "upgrade". It might be "ones of pounds" lighter, but they left the 30+ pound stock wheels in place, so losing weight couldn't have been a goal.
  • Did they do any front brake cooling? What brake pads? Fluid?
  • A big honking Torque Arm added to a S197 with proper 3-link rear suspensions, for track use ...???
  • What spring rates did they use? What were those camber plates that took 2 people to install? What alignment settings did they get to? Swaybar sizes?
There was just about a total lack of data. It seemed more like a commerical for things one shop likes to sell to people, and not necessarily the best parts they could offer for big track upgrades. It was by no means a technical review of anything. Hugely wasted opportunity, and if I was Cortex I'd be pissed...

I'm with you on the "lack of data" being nuts but at the end of the day this video isn't for us, it's for folks who don't really care about that. If I were Filip, I'd be pretty irked about that as ultimately he makes parts for racecars and lap times matter A LOT.

That said, it's positive media which helps advertise the company. As for the driving one handed, a lot of that looks to me like it was done on cooldown/warmup laps at like 1/3rd the pace.

1.) Agreed on the wheels/tires... maybe they didn't want the impressions to be impacted by anything but the suspension components.

2.) Unsprung weight and braking torque is probably different than the Brembo setup. No idea if they did the rears too or just the front. Seems like that money could have spent elsewhere for better performance, like, you know, the wheels/tires.

3.) Probably not, no idea and no idea. I'm sure they used the Wilwood mixed track/street pads with some decent fluids though.

4.) Yup, welcome to Cortex Racing. Filip has explained it to me multiple times the reason why he prefers the Torque Arm to the 3 link setup and it boils down to getting on the throttle earlier because of the higher %AS without the added effects of roll steer associated with LCA relocation brackets and steep LCA angles. Not sure I fully understand how adding a torque arm puts more stress on the rear brakes considering what a torque arm does on braking but I think they spliced that soundbyte together during editing. At any rate, I've driven an S197 with a torque arm and it's quite different from the 3 link setup. It's easier for me to comprehend how to drive the car (point and shoot, basically) whereas someone with about as many years on track and in autocross as I've been alive, I can understand how the simpler torque arm setup isn't needed to extract 10/10ths out of the car. Frankly, I quite enjoy the car with the TA more than I did with the 3 link, but I'm confined to some wonky rules.

The other thing to consider is that he has obviously done the suspension analysis to determine what effects he wants in his car setups. I know he has the CAD files for the S197 suspension so the next step is a full on analysis and fine tuning the setups through the computer. There is obviously something in a TA setup that he likes better than a 3 link setup. There are obviously things you like about a 3 link setup and hate about a TA setup.

5.) Can't tell on the spring rates, I've never discussed them with Filip because I knew what I wanted from my car and where to go with my own rates. Judging by the body roll up front and out back I'd be shocked if it was more than 450lbs/in in the front and 225lbs/in the rear. On the final turn you can see how much more negative camber that car needed though... still plenty of body roll. That said, it doesn't matter if the driver says it doesn't matter! :)

Camber plates look like the MM camber plates with the Cortex logo instead of the MM logo. Looks like they pulled them apart to do the install. Generally MM's rubber band method works pretty well from what I've seen. Get them in, start tightening screws, cut the band, finish tightening and be done. They chose to do it the harder way. By the same token, there are shots where it looks distinctly like a set of modified GC plates. The ears that hold the bolts in place are VERY Ground Control but GC's race plates don't look like that for the S197 so I have no idea.

Bars look like Eibach's bars.

Anyway, Filip is a pretty laid back guy. He relies a lot on customers to spread the word about his product and that is working for him right now.
 

Rabee

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Mike in his review said that he dropped about 4 seconds in his lap time after installing the cortex setup, so here we go, you got your lap time.

And he also said there will be future upgrades, wheels, tires, brakes, cage...etc

I myself liked the idea of keeping the same tires/wheels before and after so all the felt change and the lap time comes directly from the suspension upgrade only.
I liked watching the video and even better reading Mike's posts on BMO forum!
And for me I am all for getting as much information as possible before start modifying my
S197 suspension.
I like Cortex and Grigg's ideas, I like Terry's classic approach of modifying the mustang and his performance as a driver himself, I like Sam Strano and his knowledge and experience and many great people on the forum here!
Cortex/Grigg's approach is appealing to me, however, will I do it? May be not, but I am researching. That is why videos like that draw my attention.
 
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billabongrob

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neema, did you ever figure out the issue with the diff fluid coming out of the axles? Mine did this on the driver side last time out. I have no catch can or turkey baster in place, and the standard no-fins cover.
 

neema

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The axle seal was to blame. I fought the crap out of the stock seal before realizing that the replacement I have isn't the same shape. I slipped it in anyways. We'll see how it holds up.

hytynebu.jpg

asahugu5.jpg


It's pretty easy to distinguish where the leak may be coming from if you see some gear oil. A leaky axle seal will be localized oil on the hub, whereas the breather will leave a nice trail along your axle tube.



Rear end should be all back together later today. Roll center adjustment is going on the lower middle hole to start.

ure9are9.jpg
 

neema

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in case anyone is wondering, these are the measurements for changes in roll center:

sety7aga.jpg
 

neema

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Wheels are in. Don't know if I'll have them mounted in time, but here's how they look.

6ape3ydy.jpg



Rear wheel (18x12 et56)
4eze8e2e.jpg


Front wheel (18x11.5 et34)
asesemu5.jpg



Not too bad, but they're heavier than I thought. There's not a lot of science to the milling on these wheels, but at least they look nice (for now).
 

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