Help me choose a suspension setup

[JJ427R]

The KB matrix brace added to the KB jacking rail is one thing, but the BMR version is even stronger...(+ a lot heavier). The BMR version is all one unit, and terminates at the back end..at the rear lower control arm mount.

https://www.bmrsuspension.com/?page=products&productid=191&superpro=0 I'll see if I can find out the weight of each of the 2 x SFC assy's. I'd like to know.... for my own curiosity.

Thanks again very much Pentalab for standing with me on this!!!

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

This guy JJ (who has been selectively deleting posts here) and his wife are quite the pair! The TMO thread she started was such a complete shit show that Rick had to lock the thread.

Here are the stats on my car. Everything on my car was the same until 2018 when I added the Matrix Brace, Jacking Rails, and MMD hood vents.
Below that are my lap times at BIR from 2014-2018.

2010 Roush 427r 2.49 pulley 9lbs boost. JDM Engineering Tune
Tires: Mickey Thompson Street Comp 275/35/20 all 4 corners [Treadwear: 300]
Brakes: 4 Piston StopTech on front , stock calipers on rear.
Rotors: Frozen Rotors Cryo Slotted on front, Roush Slotted rear
Pads: Ferodo Racing DS2500 pads on both Front and Rear

9/22/2014...
Session 1
2:08

Session 2
2:01

So just are looking at your lap time data from 2014, from one session your BEST laps is SEVEN SECONDS faster no car changes. So a consistent driver you are not.

Here is where Matrix Brace and Jacking Rails were added. Note 2 second drop in times compared to the years before.

Literally look at what I bolded... you aren't "testing" anything here, you are comparing times from YEARS before.

Do you not understand how ridiculous this is to be calling "proof" of anything?? Other than "I drove this track on this year, then drive it again another." Why are you still replying?!?! Your argument is invalid on so many levels. But let's continue...

9/10/18
Lap 5 1:58

I'm not posting my Road America times but the results are very similar, gained 2-3 seconds a lap at RA after the Matrix brace as well.

So your best lap ever after years of trying, in a supercharged Roush Mustang is 1:58 at Brainerd and you later did post your best of a 2:57 at Road America.

Do you know where I am headed next, class?? TO THE LAP TIME BOARD!

That's right... the lap times are always what hangs you. So many "arguments" get heated, right until two words are uttered, which always cuts through the nonsense: "Lap times?" So let's see what THE SLOWEST road race cars known to man, 1.6L powered Miatas on Toyos, run. Survey says...

This took 5 seconds to google. NASA Great Lakes hasn't run at BIR in A FREAGIN DECADE but they were STILL 2 seconds faster at BIR than Mr Inconsistent NASA Test Theory wizard in his Supercharged Roush Mustang here. Back in 2010! And in 2016 the Slowest Spec Class Ever Designed was fully TWELVE SECONDS FASTER at Road America. Twelve seconds is an eternity.

Sorry, but I'm really not sorry. You and your wife have made it some personal mission to PROVE that your "Testing" has any meaning whatsoever. Guess what, when you are a ROLLING CHICANE on course going this slow, your opinion means d1ck. And garbage branded 300TW tires in 20" diameter you bought from American Muscle are what's holding your times back more than some ding-dong chassis brace! Good grief...

Hugs and kisses,

 

[JJ427R]

Try to keep in mind that I actually do have some experience concerning the effects of additional or different stiffnesses on the same car. That it wasn't on my '08 GT is mostly irrelevant because the structural principles involved remain the same.

Plus there's those S197 measurements that I did make.


Norm

I'm sorry if I sound like I'm dismissing your experience on this Norm, that is not my intension at all and I'm not trying to disrespect your opinion or anything like that.

My wife's post about all of this on Track Mustangs Online facebook page was closed today by the admin of that page because he said "this conversation is going nowhere" I'm so glad I'm not on facebook myself, but to me that is very sad in a way that these so called "track rats" try to sensor your opinions. I think more of it was the admin protecting his buddy Terry Fair and all the Vorshlag cronies on some dumb ass comment he made about me using a "disability card" that was not true at all. The wife put him in his place very quickly and that was when the thread was closed.

Maybe it's time we give the OP his thread back too...

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

My wife's post about all of this on Track Mustangs Online facebook page was closed today by the admin of that page because he said "this conversation is going nowhere" I'm so glad I'm not on facebook myself, but to me that is very sad in a way that these so called "track rats" try to sensor your opinions. I think more of it was the admin protecting his buddy Terry Fair and all the Vorshlag cronies

Your wife's post was even less coherent than your post here (again, which you have been selectively deleting). Rick isn't "protecting" anyone, and he and I have clashed over a number of subjects. But your wife kept going more off the deep end...

I'm surprised he kept it open as long as he did. The problem is you and her HAVE NO VALID DATA for any argument. Just be happy that you "feel" like you magically "found" 2 seconds and move on. Maybe get some more seat time or instruction so you aren't 12 seconds a lap slower at RA than Spec Miatas from 2016. Or do a REAL test if it matters so much. And she very much played the handicap card in that back-and-forth as soon as she felt like we weren't respecting your lap times.

But the simple fact is #LAPTIMESMATTER

When you are THAT SLOW and as inconsistent session over session in the same day your lap times don't really hold any water for some part you added, especially when you are looking at times from a YEAR later. I just don't think you or her understands "math" or "science" or "testing" very well.

on some dumb ass comment he made about me using a "disability card" that was not true at all. The wife put him in his place very quickly and that was when the thread was closed.

She... WHAT?!

Brother, I don't know what planet you are on but she was laughed off of that page. Why? Because she had no sound reasoning or data or anything to back up her "claims". And as SOON as someone pointed out you SLOW ASS LAP TIMES (as I have done here again) she PLAYED THE HANDICAP CARD.

Maybe it's time we give the OP his thread back too...

Yes, indeed. There was actually some good technical discussion here until you came in here and took a steaming dump all over this thread. Just MOVE ALONG and go clog up the green HPDE group in your "rolling chicane" of a car.

Hugs and kisses,

 

[JJ427R]

Terry Fair you should be ashamed of yourself for that comment you made yesterday, and If I was in person with you I'd bust your goddam teeth out!!! What you just did here takes it to another level. I won't even dignify it with another response other than you can KISS MY ASS!!!

Wife has not deleted anything on there, that was your croanie Jason, again get your story straight and tell the truth. "dickhead" that is what my wife called him yesterday... damn she's a good woman...

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Terry Fair you should be ashamed of yourself for that comment you made yesterday, and If I was in person with you I'd bust your goddam teeth out!!! What you just did here takes it to another level. I won't even dignify it with another response other than you can KISS MY ASS!!!

Better quote that one before "JJ the Deleter" ninja edits his post that has physical threats of violence because we disagree on his testing.

"Sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me"

I learned that phrase above in Kindergarten. (and of course he put in another response - or three - because that's what you do when you lose an argument that had no merit.)

Look, everyone here (except maybe Pentalab, who is also very slow, and who I agree with no almost nothing) agrees that your lap time data is bunk. Just accept that and move on. You are the one with the ax to grind that has zero valid data to back it up. I've said nothing I wouldn't say to you in person - and my facts would have shut this conversation down super quick in real life.

Some people, when they get behind that keyboard, become a real tough guy. But I'm a 100% straight talking asshole in real life, too. I just get to use memes on the interwebs - to hopefully show how I'd be laughing at your lame ass data face to face.

WAITING FOR YOU TO GET THE LAST WORD IN... in 3... 2... 1...

Cuddles and rainbows,

 

[JJ427R]

I'm glad you can admit yourself your an asshole, and the fact anyone would do business with a person who acts like this^ astounds me. And you actually think you are funny doing it.
So now you can go back to making your "doo dad bolt on caster camber plates".

 

[Pentalab]

Has anybody welded in a pair of BMR SFC's.... then tested them on a road course ? (05-14 cars, or 07-14 GT-500's)..and provided some data ? I searched anywhere..and everywhere for the last 3 months...off and on..... and not having any success.

The way this thread as evolved..(and also the 87 postings on FB), it's as though BMR SFC's have been previously tested by somebody in the past.... with either poor /mixed results. If that's the case, fine..... but I'm having a helluva time finding it. I'll ask BMR if they can provide any actual data...which may well be anecdotal and /or biased.... but better than nothing.

 

[JJ427R]

Has anybody welded in a pair of BMR SFC's.... then tested them on a road course ? (05-14 cars, or 07-14 GT-500's)..and provided some data ? I searched anywhere..and everywhere for the last 3 months...off and on..... and not having any success.

The way this thread as evolved..(and also the 87 postings on FB), it's as though BMR SFC's have been previously tested by somebody in the past.... with either poor /mixed results. If that's the case, fine..... but I'm having a helluva time finding it. I'll ask BMR if they can provide any actual data...which may well be anecdotal and /or biased.... but better than nothing.

That would be awesome to get some data from them if you can. I tried previously to get some as well from Kenny Brown, but they chose not to get in to these types of discussions as it usually goes nowhere. I have also searched the web with no results. I know a couple other gentlemen that have installed them with the same results Pentalab and myself have had, but they won't chime in as they don't want to go thru this either.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Has anybody welded in a pair of BMR SFC's.... then tested them on a road course ? (05-14 cars, or 07-14 GT-500's)..and provided some data ? I searched anywhere..and everywhere for the last 3 months...off and on..... and not having any success.

The way this thread as evolved..(and also the 87 postings on FB), it's as though BMR SFC's have been previously tested by somebody in the past.... with either poor /mixed results. If that's the case, fine..... but I'm having a helluva time finding it. I'll ask BMR if they can provide any actual data...which may well be anecdotal and /or biased.... but better than nothing.

Of course this has been "tested", countless times. Even on floppy noodle Fox Mustang chassis. Too many times to count over the past 30 years. Guess what....

It. Doesn't. Do. Dick.

No lap time changes. People don't tend to show "failed tests" on their parts, and even end users who can swear they "feel a difference" aren't going to show properly controlled test data that was a dead end. You can look for a hundred hours and not find a real test done that shows what you want here.

But on older chassis, sure, I'd still try to add proper SFCs to the "flexi-flier" Fox or maybe even an SN95 chassis. We went to great lengths to firm up this LS swapped floppy 3rd gen Camaro we worked on, below, which - like the Fox Mustang - is another car "designed in the 1970s"

But on 21st century designs (S197 and S550) which are built like a damn bank vault, you are just falling into... STEELITUS.

STEELITUS is a common milady, where you add more and more bolt-on or weld-on steel doo-dads to an already PROVEN AND MEASURED super stiff modern chassis, but it is JUST ADDING WEIGHT. But, you do get the benefit of a lighter wallet! Lap times mysteriously remain unchanged, or get worse as you add more weight...

Don't you think Ballast My Ride would be posting any shred of real, A-B-A, controlled test, with any scientific lap time drops if their braces and doo-dads they made actually dropped lap times, like this delusional JJ thinks his Kenny B bits did "year over year" in his "12 seconds slower than Spec Miata" supercharged Mustang? They'd buy ads on Google, Facebook, be posting it all over this forum.

Isn't it unusual that they don't? But they don't need to - so many people "want to believe" and will buy any shiny gadget.

Again, the burden of proof should be on the shops that push this bolt-on nonsense to the public, not on the naysayers like us, who just say "show me the data". Like so many of these worthless parts you can buy for these cars THERE IS NO DATA to show this, because it simply doesn't work.

Hugs are better than drugs,

 

[ddd4114]

As entertaining as this thread might be, can we please just let it die? This pissing match isn't going to solve anything. It just makes us look stupid.

 

[kcbrown]

All this discussion actually raises a hopefully reasonable question: how do you properly test the driver confidence effects of a modification?

I’ve seen numerous claims over the years that some mod or other improves lap times, when the person in question was a relatively inexperienced driver. Those claims were often disputed by experienced drivers, and rightly so with respect to the effects those modifications had in their experienced hands.

But it’s precisely in experienced hands that confidence-improving modifications will have the LEAST effect. Why? Because they’re experienced enough to be able to get something approaching the best out of any car regardless of its handling characteristics.

Point being: for a modification to have a real effect on the confidence of the driver to the degree that it makes a significant improvement in lap times, THE DRIVER HAS TO BE AN INEXPERIENCED ONE. But that is precisely the problem with respect to measurement: not only are their lap times likely to vary enough to make any improvements land in the noise, their own improvement in experience, and the increased confidence that comes with it, that is likely to occur after installation of the modification is likely to overshadow any improvement in confidence that comes from the modification itself.

And so, we come right back to the original question: how do you objectively and properly test the confidence-improving effects of a modification when the people for whom such effects will matter the most are the very people whose lack of experience makes the results of such a test untrustworthy in the first place?


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[JJ427R]

THE DRIVER HAS TO BE AN INEXPERIENCED ONE.

My first questions would be when is a driver considered to be an experienced driver? How many track days? How many years driving?

In my case I'm 58 years old, I started doing track days in 2012 at BIR's Performance Driving School (BIR is one of the fastest tracks in the country) with my 2010 Roush 427r basically stock. My first instructor and now very good friend is Bill Groschen.
Driver Profile: https://www.birperformance.com/gallery-view/billgroschen/
BIR PDS https://www.birperformance.com/

I had run approximately 18 track days at both BIR and Road America before I installed the Matrix Brace and Jacking Rails in 2017. I did several other mods prior including brake and cooling changes.
Do you consider that enough experience to notice the changes?

As Pentalab posted in another thread yesterday:
Any idiot can feel the difference when the BMR sfc's are welded into place.... the difference is readily apparent.

I could not agree more with this statement. You don't need any experience on track to notice the change this made. You will feel it immediately the first time you drive the car, it is that noticeable. When my wife first drove it she came back and said "what did you do to that car" because of how much stiffer it was....

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

My first questions would be when is a driver considered to be an experienced driver? How many track days? How many years driving?

In my case I'm 58 years old, I started doing track days in 2012 at BIR's Performance Driving School (BIR is one of the fastest tracks in the country) with my 2010 Roush 427r basically stock. My first instructor and now very good friend is Bill Groschen.
Driver Profile: https://www.birperformance.com/gallery-view/billgroschen/
BIR PDS https://www.birperformance.com/

Whatever this guy's experience level is... triple it to be safe... then your opinion matters.

 

[JJ427R]

Whatever this guy's experience level is... triple it to be safe... then your opinion matters.

So your saying I'm not experienced until I run 21 years and or 75 track days, that's a bit harsh I'd say.

Granted I've only run 25 track days, but I've learned quite a bit about driving on a track in that short time from some very good instructors at BIR, 1 of which currently runs in the Trans Am series.

I know what it feels like to drive into turn 1 at BIR at 130-140mph, and I know how it feels to run 140 mph and 2:55 lap at Road America. I also know how my car changed when the Kenny Brown Matrix Brace was installed.

I actually have one installed and you admittedly said you have not even tried one, so how can you possibly judge one fairly? If you came on here and said you have tried them and gave me any real explanation, times, or data to show it did nothing, then I'd respect your opinion a hell of a lot more. Until you try one on your car you'll never really know will you? Your only assuming.

I'm not going to try and insult you. I have no idea how many years you've run or many races, but you are very much underestimating the change that these Matrix Braces/Subframe Connectors make to your car. BMR and Kenny Brown have both built them for a purpose, and not just bolt on weight as you try to say.
That is the last thing I will say to you about it and I'll leave it at that.

 

[kcbrown]

My first questions would be when is a driver considered to be an experienced driver? How many track days? How many years driving?

I don’t think it’s so much a question of time as it is capability. The people who are most capable of assessing a modification’s true ability to improve the performance of the car are those who are able to wring almost every last bit of performance out of the car. But the problem is that those are the very people LEAST qualified to assess the amount of improvement that can be had through improved driver confidence because their confidence is already near its peak due to their experience and capability.

I can’t say anything about you specifically on that, nor would I dare hazard a guess in the first place, but I can say that one indicator is lap time consistency (though it’s not the only one).

In any case, the problem here is that we’re really talking about two separate things: how the car feels and how the car performs. The stiffeners could well improve the subjective feel of the car while making no real difference to the lap times in the hands of a highly capable driver. In a way, it looks to me like we have two sides talking past each other.

For myself, the feel of the car matters quite a lot. It might make no difference whatsoever in lap times but it can make a huge difference in how enjoyable the car is to drive at speed. So my perspective, for what little it’s worth, is that if a modification makes the car more enjoyable for you to drive, then it was a worthwhile improvement regardless of whether or not lap times happened to improve along with it.



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[JJ427R]

So then when is a driver considered truly capable? I consider myself more than capable at this point. My lap times were quite consistent and improved greatly after the install as Norm posted with a graph of my times on another thread.

This is a street car on street tires driven to the track doing HPDE track days and not a trailered track dedicated car that is racing in say NASA. I can't drive it to the limit so to speak, as I have to be able to get home in it, so that holds me back a bit. But does that make me any less of a critic or capable? Does that also make me a better judge of it, as above you said:

But the problem is that those are the very people LEAST qualified to assess the amount of improvement that can be had through improved driver confidence because their confidence is already near its peak due to their experience and capability.

 

[kcbrown]

So then when is a driver considered truly capable? I consider myself more than capable at this point. My lap times were quite consistent and improved greatly after the install as Norm posted with a graph of my times on another thread.

Well, for this, I'd say a reasonable test would be when the person's driving is such that their lap times are highly consistent and are not improving with further experience. I can't say to what degree that applies to you, but you did say this about yourself:

I do know that I'm getting faster as I get more confident every time on the track.

If you're getting faster and more confident every time you're on the track, without changes to the car, then it means you haven't hit the limits of the car. But being able to consistently hit the limits of the car is exactly what is needed for someone to be able to properly assess the performance effects of the changes to the car. Obviously there can be some caveats to that, having to do with how quickly their lap times improve relative to how much those times might change as a result of changes made to the car. Variations (whether consistently in one direction or not) of lap times without changes to the equipment, when they exceed the amount of actual performance gain generated by a modification, will obviously make the latter impossible to assess.

This is a street car on street tires driven to the track doing HPDE track days and not a trailered track dedicated car that is racing in say NASA. I can't drive it to the limit so to speak, as I have to be able to get home in it, so that holds me back a bit. But does that make me any less of a critic or capable? Does that also make me a better judge of it, as above you said:

But driving to the limit is exactly what is needed in order to properly assess the performance gains (as opposed to driver confidence gains) of a modification.

The point in the line of thinking I'm proposing here is that people who can consistently drive cars to the limits of the cars' capabilities are exactly the people who are not qualified to determine the improvement that can come from a modification that improves driver confidence, precisely because those people already have maximized their confidence. When you can drive any car to its absolute limits, you don't need any more confidence to wring any improvements in lap time out of it. Conversely, if you're not so experienced/capable as all that, then you're precisely the person who can benefit from a modification that improves driver confidence.

Now, there is one caveat here: a modification can make it easier for a truly capable driver to eke out the last bit of performance from the car, meaning that it may be that they can get all the performance out of the car regardless, but a given modification might make it so that they have to do less work in order to get that performance. And the modifications you've been talking about might well fall into that category. On that, I cannot say.


In any case, my messages here aren't for the purpose of saying how capable you are or any of that, but rather to explain how the two opposing viewpoints can both be valid simultaneously.

 

[kcbrown]

Oh, and another thing: some people here, such as (it seems) Terry Fair, are laser focused on performance, i.e. lap times. And there is certainly some validity to that approach. But it is a mistake, in my opinion, to insist that a modification is not worthwhile if it does not yield a tangible gain (e.g., in raw performance of the car, or reliability, or something objective like that), when it yields a desirable change in the feel of the car.

Look, few here are going into professional racing, where their livelihood depends on their ability to eke out every last bit of performance from their car. The vast majority of us, most especially here, do this for fun. And while going fast is fun, going even faster isn't necessarily. For one thing, getting that last extra bit of speed out of your car might well be a lot more work. And for another, it might put you close enough to the edge that the danger factor alone makes it less enjoyable. But the point is this: you don't have to go faster to have more fun, and sometimes, quite the opposite is the case.

I can use myself as an example here. I've taken a number of Evolution Driving School courses. One of the instructors noticed that my car oversteers more than it "should", that the fact that it oversteers to the degree it does (which, IMO, isn't all that much) makes it slower than it would be if it were configured to slightly understeer. And that may be. But I didn't make any changes despite that advice. Why? Because the setup as it currently is makes it an enormous amount of fun to drive, and I didn't have to do very much to get it that way. My car is a GT Track Package version with Koni Sport dampers, Boss 302 standard springs up front, and Boss 302 Laguna Seca springs, sway bar, and panhard bar in the rear -- on a square tire setup. And yeah, it does oversteer both under power and when lifting some, and tends to be reasonably well balanced when the throttle is neutral. But for me, this makes it great fun to drive, because I enjoy making the tail come out a little when cornering. So slower? Yeah, probably. But who cares, when I have a big grin on my face when going around that corner?

Make the modifications to your car that put that smile on your face, and ignore anyone who says that it's not a worthwhile modification just because it doesn't make your car faster (whether or not it helps you go faster is a different question).

 

[Racer47]

The slow guys always say shit like this.

flame suit on, fire away, I dont care, I'll just laugh as I lap you.......again.