Tunes, Mods, and Smogging

[Juice]

5 of 8 monitors completed this morning.
Now we get to see if I get a p420/p430 code with the 3" Flowmaster minicats. (3way ceramic)

 

[WJBertrand]

When your hand-held tuning device (the ford racing pro cal) has an EO# C.A.R.B stamped on it? this means that it's 50 state emissions legal. Also note, that as long as your vehicle passes the OBDII emissions test? any hand-held tuning device which doesn't include a certified C.A.R.B # is legal for use with the exception of California. However, that may very well change if the EPA is successful in it's attempts to impose restrictions upon the aftermarket performance industry

So do you mean the hand-held device itself should have the EO stamped directly on it? I think I only had the sticker in the box with it, that is placed in the engine compartment. The hand-held unit itself reads from a memory card, so it seems like someone could put a noncompliant tune on a card. Not sure how stamping the unit itself could control that?

 

[Juice]

So do you mean the hand-held device itself should have the EO stamped directly on it? I think I only had the sticker in the box with it, that is placed in the engine compartment. The hand-held unit itself reads from a memory card, so it seems like someone could put a noncompliant tune on a card. Not sure how stamping the unit itself could control that?

When there is an approved modification done by a dealer, the have to put a label on the pcm itself. I had to fill out those labels when flashing updates/fixes under warranty.
Any carb stickers for boltons, just went under the hood somewhere. Usually near the emission label.

 

[07 Boss]

And this is an example of a defeat device.
No judgement, but this is exactly what the EPA is after.

Judge me all you want, I'm a big boy and know what I'm doing. lol. I'm currently using the big daddies mini cat O2 extensions to defeat the OBD testing and they work great.

 

[GlassTop09]

So do you mean the hand-held device itself should have the EO stamped directly on it? I think I only had the sticker in the box with it, that is placed in the engine compartment. The hand-held unit itself reads from a memory card, so it seems like someone could put a noncompliant tune on a card. Not sure how stamping the unit itself could control that?

Hi WJBertrand,
Just to answer your question here.....the CARB EO sticker on that device validates the tune within the device that came w\ it from Ford Performance is legal, not the device itself. The sticker provided is proof of "certified condition" of the tune file when loaded into the PCM.....according to the EPA which validates the compliance to the Clean Air Act.....unless that tune file is physically altered by another tuner at that time it will lose it's "certified condition" exemption.

Now what you've posted in the second part of your post is correct. If another tune file is loaded on that device that hasn't gone thru CARB EO certification, the sticker on that device doesn't apply to the "new" tune loaded in it. This is 1 of the reasons why CARB (not the Fed EPA at this time, as CARB supersedes Fed EPA but this could be adopted by the Fed EPA at any time for the other 49 states in the future) is gonna start pushing the tune CVN\cal ID stuff soon to stop illegal tunes (illegal from a Fed EPA emissions standpoint) from being used. Has nothing to do w\ performance but all to do w\ emissions.

A tuner can actually do EPA legal performance tuning w\o being "certified" by EPA or CARB, just need to know what not to touch\alter in the base OEM thus EPA\CARB legal tune file to retain legality.

The problem for CARB\EPA compliance is how to identify the "good" tuners from the "bad" tuners......

Hope this helps.

PS--Just giving as specific an answer according to current CARB\EPA emissions rules for guidance. You can ignore if desired.

 

[Pentalab]

Judge me all you want, I'm a big boy and know what I'm doing. lol. I'm currently using the big daddies mini cat O2 extensions to defeat the OBD testing and they work great.

Do the big daddies mini cat 02 extension's plug into the rear O2 holes.... with the oem rear sensor then plugged into the mini cat extension ?? Once in a while I get the..OBD code spat out for... ' rear O2 sensors not ready'. I tried those extenders..to no avail, made no difference.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

So do you mean the hand-held device itself should have the EO stamped directly on it? I think I only had the sticker in the box with it, that is placed in the engine compartment. The hand-held unit itself reads from a memory card, so it seems like someone could put a noncompliant tune on a card. Not sure how stamping the unit itself could control that?

As the other posters have mentioned, the EO# number is a sticker which validates the calibration tuning file in the Ford Performance tuning device as 50 state CARB legal. You place the included sticker in the engine bay as you mentioned and your all set. However, as also mentioned by the other posters, if a non-compliant tune is somehow flashed into the device thru a memory card and then uploaded into your vehicle's ECM? your CARB EO# sticker is no longer valid. Therefore, just something you may want to keep in mind for future reference

 

[WJBertrand]

When there is an approved modification done by a dealer, the have to put a label on the pcm itself. I had to fill out those labels when flashing updates/fixes under warranty.
Any carb stickers for boltons, just went under the hood somewhere. Usually near the emission label.

Thanks for the reply. I peeled the rubber bumper surround from the hand-held programmer just to be sure and there's no EO or CARB number stamped or stickered on the unit anywhere. Just what looks like a part and lot number SKU tag. On the little package for the SD card however, there's a sticker with my VIN# on it as well as on the outside of the cardboard box. I had my tune installed by a dealer (Galpin Ford) here in SoCal as well. The only way to keep the warranty in effect was to have a dealer do the installation.

 

[WJBertrand]

The sticker provided is proof of "certified condition" of the tune file when loaded into the PCM..

Ok, thanks I do have the under hood sticker, just nothing on the programmer itself. The SD card carries my VIN though.

 

[OX1]

A tuner can actually do EPA legal performance tuning w\o being "certified" by EPA or CARB, just need to know what not to touch\alter in the base OEM thus EPA\CARB legal tune file to retain legality.

Going to have to explain this one a bit more for me. How does the tuner know they did not alter emissions? Of course I assume they would not alter them as much with all emission equipment in tact, but they are not allowed to alter them at all, correct?

 

[GlassTop09]

Here is a live personal example:
When I bought my Stang I bought a SCT X4 tuner from AM w\ the "free tunes for life" cause AM associated w\ B--A Performance for all tuning at that time. When I installed my initial mods (UDP's & full exhaust) I sent them the list of the mods installed for tuning purposes (which also included my Kooks Catted X-Pipe so this was known up front...keep this in mind). I got the tune back & loaded it in & drove the car & all was good....wasn't having any issues w\ my car. I bought a general OBDII scan tool to use on the wife's '09 Lincoln MKS but 1 day I used it to check my Stang out looking at the live data & noted that the PID that informs the number of/location of O2 sensors in use didn't match up to the car (showed 2 front O2 sensors in use only instead of all 4 O2 sensors the car has installed) so I got my SCT X4 & returned the Stang's tune back to stock then ran the other OBDII scan tool & checked the same data PID....now showed all 4 O2 sensors being used so this tuning company had a "tuner" employed at that time that intentionally disabled an emissions specific device in the tune file w\o my knowledge or consent & irrespective of the fact that I sent in an accurate description of the mods installed. So I got w\ the company on this & made them rewrite my tune to legally comply (turn the 2 rear O2 sensors back on).
If I wasn't living in a "safe haven" state & hadn't caught this ahead of time I could've been in trouble w\ the Fed EPA when the car failed smog for something I had no knowledge of & no participation in...IOW's for something I didn't ask for.

Did I request a tune? Yes. Did I request any legal smog stuff to be disabled? No......... As a result of this I made the decision to get tuned by a local tuner so that I can be face to face w\ them & discuss all this in person going forward thus ended my time w\ this tuning company.........

I to this day have all the email correspondence saved for documentation purposes & can prove what I've posted here.

Now if I had asked for the illegal tune the onus would have put on me (I sent in on the tune request form that I had a Kooks Off-Road X-pipe installed instead) but I didn't.....the tuner just implied that I wanted it due to the history behind their tuning experience w\ this specific aftermarket part w\ it's race cats.
If they were a legit tuning company, before they sent me the initial tune they should have contacted me to inform me of this & either put me on record that I chose to receive it anyway or refuse to send me the tune.....but not to do this w\o my knowledge or consent.

But in the end even that doesn't matter as currently the action in & of itself is illegal.......

This same company, when I sent in a request for a tune for my Lunati VooDoo cams, responded back to say that they couldn't do it cause they didn't have any experience or knowledge tuning around these cams. Now I already had my car locally tuned w\ these cams installed....I sent the request in to see what they'd do. Now ask yourself.....why refuse this request when they didn't refuse the 1 before that was known to be illegal?

Now w\ my current tuner, when I talked w\ him on the initial session & gave him my setup I informed him specifically that I didn't want any smog stuff disabled in my tune, even though I know I live in a "safe haven" county of NM & I'll worry about dealing w\ any MILS that occur from his tuning. Because I made this statement w\ him up front we get along very well because now he knows where I stand so knows what he can or can't do within his tuning of my car & will get my consent prior to doing anything that might constitute illegality so it will be my decision & not his so I'm fine w\ the results.....

It is these types of bad tuner's actions that has made the issue w\ the Fed EPA into what it has become.....not the good tuners that try to legally comply but the good ones are having to go thru the BS that they didn't help to create......but we want to put all the blame on the Fed EPA for all of the crap?

To put this on record as me saying it.........."No, this is not right."

Now if you so desire to put ole GlassTop09 on blast for standing up for what I posted here then go ahead & do so.

I have a very thick skin.......................

 

[tjm73]

This is not hard to wrap your head around. If the emissions control devices are present and functioning, not deactivated, deleted or defeated in some way, it's not out of compliance. The EPA has only expressed concern that the emissions control systems are not defeated.

 

[06 T-RED S/C GT]

So do you mean the hand-held device itself should have the EO stamped directly on it? I think I only had the sticker in the box with it, that is placed in the engine compartment. The hand-held unit itself reads from a memory card, so it seems like someone could put a noncompliant tune on a card. Not sure how stamping the unit itself could control that?

As the other posters have mentioned, the EO# number is a sticker which validates the calibration tuning file in the Ford Performance tuning device as 50 state CARB legal. You place the included sticker in the engine bay as you mentioned and your all set. However, as also mentioned by the other posters, if a non-compliant tune is somehow flashed into the device thru a memory card and then uploaded into your vehicle's ECM? your CARB EO# sticker is no longer valid. Therefore, just something you may want to keep in mind for future reference

Ok, thanks I do have the under hood sticker, just nothing on the programmer itself. The SD card carries my VIN though.

There is no EO# stamped on the programmer itself. So just disregard my original post response, it was incorrect!

 

[GlassTop09]

Going to have to explain this one a bit more for me. How does the tuner know they did not alter emissions? Of course I assume they would not alter them as much with all emission equipment in tact, but they are not allowed to alter them at all, correct?

As long as they don't disable any emissions specific monitors or the programming that these monitors operate off of in the tune's IM Readiness (the OBDII monitors that determine passage or failure) or change the closed loop OEM set AFR target (the target that the PCM will try to maintain....the approved EPA\CARB AFR for emissions requirement) or alter any other programming that may alter operation of other non-emissions specific devices\components (such as the VCT system as it is not monitored in IM Readiness but this system does perform an emissions task--EGR--as well as performance) that may have an adverse effect on emissions that may cause an OBDII emissions check to fail, it is legal to make tuning changes for maintenance or even some performance related reasons. The 1st 2 things I typed are dead ringer illegal (IM Readiness & OEM closed loop AFR target), the 3rd 1 is where the grey area as tuning is concerned as it will depend on how much alteration is done to actually cause the adverse emissions effects....... The issue w\ gas\diesel powered engines concerning emissions is during low speed, low RPM operation (daily driving) as this area is where these engine's operations are the least efficient...especially V6's\V8's (or larger displacement engines) as they only become very fuel efficient at higher RPM's where the HP\TQ peaks occur due to more accurate & stable airflow measurement thus better metering of fuel & more complete fuel burn due to more stable combustion chamber temps as a result. This is what\why the cats are installed for as these engines can't pass the emissions targets on their own w\o them at low speed, low RPM usage. I'll say it again.....low speed, low RPM usage.

What folks need to know (or should learn) is even w\o changing the closed loop AFR target in a tune (this is a ratio target), any HP\TQ efficiency gains gotten tuning wise in excess of the initial OEM output...even legal tuning...is gonna increase the amount of exhaust poundage expelled from the engine over what was initially output w\ the OEM tune at the same OEM AFR target (increased airflow w\ increased fuel used = increased exhaust poundage out of the same engine displacement...not less. It's that simple.) that may or may not exceed the capacity of the OEM cats (they are sized to handle the HP\TQ output targets the OEM wanted to meet w\o any excess expense to keep the car's cost within the range they wanted them to sell for AND meet EPA requirements to obtain the CoC necessary to sell the car for public use on Federal\State hiways\roads & for warranty purposes) to handle thus may fail the OBDII IM Readiness Catalyst monitor check (the P0420\P0430 DTC's). Now the EPA already knows this....all 1 has to do is to acquire a larger sized EPA\CARB certified, OBDII compliant cat(s) that is\are designed for the vehicle's Fed EPA emissions class...the engine size-Group number that is located under the TWC\HO2S\SFI section on the vehicle's Emissions Information sticker....than the OEM cat to handle the increased exhaust poundage output to bring the vehicle back into class EPA emissions compliance. Anything else outside of this is considered illegal.......for use on Federal\State public hiways\roads only. EPA emissions is about HC, CO & NOx poundage reduction % targets according to a specified vehicle's designed usage class.....for our 05-10 S197's w\ our beloved 4.6L 3V V8 engine, the Group number is 9FMXV05.4VEK. This specifies the Mustang version of the 4.6L 3V V8 as an OEM performance class engine. So you can't just install any old cheap cat on these & expect to pass thus why they have to meet or exceed class specification of the engine & be compatible w\ the onboard OBDII monitoring software within the tune.
Magnaflow for example makes a CARB certified, OBDII compliant universal designed cat that is specific to this group number (which I listed in another thread) that is also CARB\EPA OBDII legal for a 07-10 Mustang GT500....a 5.4L 32-valve factory SC'd V8 that puts out around 552 HP\532 TQ w\ about 6-8 psi of boost in OEM trim....so you think it can't handle a 4.6L V8 in any NA configuration or FI configuration as long as you manage the FI boost output to not exceed the cat's max poundage capacity? The parts are out there to be had to retain emissions legality.......if you're really looking for them or want them.

But the thing is they only make these so large (the limit I've seen is 8500 lbs per cat for a class C vehicle...in NA terms this equals around a 3.2L displacement capacity at 80%-90% VE using the std 4 cyl arrangement per cat config for max cat treating poundage sizing so double for a V-banked engine....got this info off Walker cat sizing charts), they are expensive to make\purchase so they aren't widely available for sale to the general public thru most known speed shops\vendors so the best route is direct from the cat manufacturer themselves (some will only sell thru a distributor partnership.....such as G-Sport\GESI is doing w\ Kooks w\ the Kooks "Green Cats" but Kooks is screwing us by labeling them as "for off-road use only" which is a violation of the Clean Air Act to sell such products to the public for public use on Federal\State public hiways\roads even though G-Sport\GESI (the cat manufacturer) has the cats legally EPA certified, OBDII compliant for Fed OBDII compliance....IOW's 49 state legal...not CARB...but since Kooks has to carry the legal emissions claims for them, Kooks gave them (have their logo engraved on them along w\ G-Sport\GESI's logo AND EPA-certification number) & any of their products w\ them installed in the "for off-road use only" moniker to get out of any EPA emissions legality if these are used on a vehicle that is driven on Federal\State public hiways\roads as Kooks doesn't own the original EPA certification permit on these cats. Do I blame them...no not at all....Business Administration 101....but it still sucks from a consumer's standpoint as they're only illegal to use in states that have adopted CARB OBDII regs...but ARE actually legal to use under the Fed EPA OBDII regs in the rest of the states that haven't adpoted CARB OBDII regs yet....none of this has anything to do w\ the Fed EPA directly but directly due to Business Marketing vs Legality 101 so in the end the consumer is left holding the bag w\ having to prove something to the Fed EPA that we shouldn't have to do just to legally use an aftermarket performance enhancing product).

I'll stop right here as I've already gone too long for most folk's POV concerning postings......sorry for the long posting if this offends you.

PS--I thought I'd also put out here that I also have in my possession a .pdf from an independent testing lab concerning catalyst converter design, operation, testing & it has all the info needed to assist w\ any special cat sizing needs...including high HP & FI equipped engines AND the necessary material that is necessary to be present in a cat for said cat to be EPA certified & OBDII compliant under OBDII monitoring from onboard ECU's thus why the 3 brick or TWC designation......dated back in 1997 thru 2003....... The only issue w\ this document is that at the time of publication CARB OBDII cert testing procedures hadn't been completed yet for California to submit it to Fed EPA to get sign off & approval from them to use instead of the std Fed EPA OBDII cert process already developed by the EPA & in use from 1996 forward to this day..........except in the other states that voluntarily adopted CARB cert stds as well as in California.

I'm done now & gonna go to bed...........................

 

[GlassTop09]

This is not hard to wrap your head around. If the emissions control devices are present and functioning, not deactivated, deleted or defeated in some way, it's not out of compliance. The EPA has only expressed concern that the emissions control systems are not defeated.

Well my fellow Mustanger, you'd think it not to be but..................................

I'll leave it at that.

 

[WJBertrand]

There is no EO# stamped on the programmer itself. So just disregard my original post response, it was incorrect!

Ok, thanks for the clarification, I appreciate it because it was quite confusing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[FredB66]

So, I suppose I'm an active example of how all this can affect the aftermarket suppliers. I'm about to pull the trigger on a SC and had pretty much narrowed it down to either a DOB or Brenspeed system. I'm in a TX county that requires emissions testing but as far as I can tell CARB compliance is not required for modifications not affecting the emissions system, but that seems to me to be a very vague requirement as a number of things can be said to be part of the 'emissions system'. Neither DOB or Brenspeed are CARB compliant so I'm a little spooked by the whole thing. I've noticed that Edelbrock, Vortech and others offer CARB compliant systems, but they weren't what I originally had in mind. They cost a little more but more to the point is that all the uncertainty is driving me away from doing business with companies that I wouldn't have hesitated to buy from a year ago.

 

[tjm73]

It is also effecting me as buyer considering buying a "new to me" car. I've been eyeing Mustangs from 1999-2009 and I specifically look for items that might cause an issue and dismiss them accordingly. I looked at a nice 2004 Mach 1 online the other day but it had long tubes and a couple other things that stuck it for any consideration.

When I've looked at even newer cars like the '11+ 5.0 cars, I always wonder if they have ever been tuned and personally value them slightly less if so.

 

[Juice]

When I've looked at even newer cars like the '11+ 5.0 cars, I always wonder if they have ever been tuned and personally value them slightly less if so.

That is a valid concern. Let me add my experience working with the 11&up copperhead pcm. This pcm is a brand new animal compared to prior years. Ford did a very good job with the stock tune, and there is very little if any gains can be had just from tuning. Any gains one thinks they got from just a tune is probably a placebo effect. Conventional tuning approach does not work well with the copperhead pcm. Not going into details, that discussion needs its own thread. But this pcm WILL deliver the specified WOT AFR, and put the most timing to it based on the knock sensors, optimal safe for the engine performance. Unless ofcourse the "tune" disables these safeties.....and that is a whole different story.

 

[Pentalab]

VMP, Lund, et all will no longer shut off the rear O2 sensors anymore. That was the standard 'fix' when LT's were installed.