help with next mods to buy for auto x

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so I have to decided to focus on auto x and road racing i currently have sportline front springs with stock struts, mmr rear coilovers with the lakewood drag shock, i have stock sway bars but i Have BMR rear lca's and relo brackets and a adj BMR uca and uca mount. I have bone stock brakes as well.

I am looking for the most bang for the buck I have a set of slicks so tires arnt a problem I am just wondering what yall would recomend me upgrading to to get the biggest advantage on the auto x track within a reasonable price but I am slowly wanting to make my car into a pretty hard core road racer, thanks.
 

retfr8flyr

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My recommendation would be to get a set of Koni shocks to go with the Sportlines and sell the rear setup. I would also ditch the relocation brackets but the BMR arms are fine. I would also get a set of Sam Strano's new adjustable sway bars and talk to him about your goals. http://www.stranoparts.com/ Sam really knows road racing and will not steer you wrong.


Earl
 
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thanks man but do u think a set of H&r or eibach street coilovers would be better then the koni/sportline combo?
 

retfr8flyr

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The coil overs would probably be a little better but only if you have the knowledge to set them up correctly. Give Sam a call, he can answer all you questions and is a really good guy that won't sell you something you don't need.


Earl
 

Kaldar142

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Sportlines may be a bit too low for what you want, i would use something else.

also big +1 on konis, amazing shocks...
 

SoundGuyDave

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I'm going to go the contrarian route... First, make the car stop. All you need to do that is a fresh set of race pads (Hawk HT10 front and HP+ rear to start with), good fresh fluid (Motul RBF600 or ATE Super Gold), and if you're really swanky, a set of front brake ducts (Quantum Motorsports).

After that, put the stock springs back in for now, with the stock dampers, and get some good street tires, like the Dunlop Direzza Star Spec.

Set your LCAs to roughly flat to the ground, or slightly down at the axle end, but not by much.

Now, with all of the money you didn't spend, GO TO EVENTS AND GET AN INSTRUCTOR. Seriously. NASA will put an instructor in your car for no extra $$ in the HPDE-1 level, and it will give you MUCH better results than any bolt-on piece ever will. Once you get over the rush of your first day, and really start learning how to drive the car, you'll progress much faster with a basically stock car to start with. After a few events, you'll start figuring out what in the car is holding you back, and then it's the correct time to address that issue.

For God's sake, get rid of the rear coilover setup that you have, the spring rates and damper valving is ALL wrong for how you want the suspension to work on a road course.

To repeat:

Brakes! Because you'll honestly need more of them than you think! (And your instructor will appreciate it. Honestly.)
Max Performance Street Tires: They're sticky enough to be fun, but they'll still make noise in the corners, and the noise that they make is an excellent tool to judge how you're driving the car around a corner. Slicks (NOT M/T!) are just dead quiet right up to the limit, and then they go silent. At that point it's too late... When you're learning, the audible feedback from the tires is invaluable.
SEAT TIME: Will get you faster, a lot more quickly than ANY mod that you can do to the car. Mods are sexy, I know, but what's better than being in a bone-stock car and getting to pass a Ferarri F430 because you're a better driver?! I did that with one of my students, on his second track day, with him driving a BMW 328i, with an automatic trans...

Trust me on this one, seat time is the key, as is having a well-maintained, solid brake and tire package. And yes, I came from a drag race background as well.
 

Kaldar142

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For God's sake, get rid of the rear coilover setup that you have, the spring rates and damper valving is ALL wrong for how you want the suspension to work on a road course.


LOL! i literally laughed out loud when i read that he had drag shocks

yeah, dave pretty much said it all
 
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LOL! i literally laughed out loud when i read that he had drag shocks

yeah, dave pretty much said it all


ok so I guess I have to explain my self, i started off doing the 1/4 with my car but after a while i got bored, i have a set of H&R coilovers that will be here wednesday so I can take the drag shocks off as with the sportlines.

Dave I am looking at getting a set of 4 power slots and the hawk pads u mentioned do u think that would be a wise braking setup and then get some brake cooling ducts down the road, and on my street tires I have a nice setof kuhmo Xs's so your saying I should use those until i get a good amount of practice then switch to my slicks i have?

And my best friend is a instructor for my local auto x region so hes slowly teaching me the ropes.
 
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Dave I am looking at getting a set of 4 power slots and the hawk pads u mentioned do u think that would be a wise braking setup and then get some brake cooling ducts down the road, and on my street tires I have a nice setof kuhmo Xs's so your saying I should use those until i get a good amount of practice then switch to my slicks i have?

Dave's not here man...
Powersluts are OK, but pricey. If you are doing parking lots mostly, save the cash and stick with the stockers. If you are hard set on replacing rotors, look up rotorpros. You can buy a full set for the price of one pair of powerskanks. I dunno about brake ducts for autocross being necessary, but it wouldn't hurt. The Kumhos are excellent tires. Just work with those and forget about slicks until it is the only thing that is holding you back. Poeple are running damn fast on those tires, including myself. :beer: You arent' talking about the drag slicks, right?
 
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Dave's not here man...
Powersluts are OK, but pricey. If you are doing parking lots mostly, save the cash and stick with the stockers. If you are hard set on replacing rotors, look up rotorpros. You can buy a full set for the price of one pair of powerskanks. I dunno about brake ducts for autocross being necessary, but it wouldn't hurt. The Kumhos are excellent tires. Just work with those and forget about slicks until it is the only thing that is holding you back. Poeple are running damn fast on those tires, including myself. :beer: You arent' talking about the drag slicks, right?

LOL
Nah not drag slicks, were can I find the rotorpros?
 

SoundGuyDave

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Okay, sorry, I had to go out and drive, rather than just sit behind the keyboard... What'd I miss??

Okay, shocks: If the H&R dampers you're getting are the adjustables, then yes, they'll be fine. OR go right back to the stock springs and shocks if you want to save some $$ for right now. If you're getting the H&R competition coil-over setup, then that will be fine. A little much to get started with, but it won't hurt you if you set them up right before you get started. Think stock ride-height, or around 3/4" drop, but that would be about it. Beyond that, the suspension angles start to make funky things happen...

Brakes: Powerslots, Rotorpros, whatever is all good, but to be honest, I run very aggressive race compound pads, and the best bang-for-the-buck out there is a set of take-off rotors from Newtakeoff.com. They cost me less, delivered, than it costs to get a set of rotors machined... You'll be surprised at how fast you go through brakes. I'm averageing between two and three sets of rotors and pads up front, and one to two in the rear, each season... Our cars are pig-heavy, and it takes a LOT of work to get them to slow down. As for ducts, I honestly don't know how much effect you'll get in an autocross setting, but if you're on the road-course, they REALLY do offer significant benefit to brake longevity. I would budget to have them on the car for your second event, if not your first...

Tires: You'll be fine on the Kumho tires to get started, they are plenty sticky. Save the slicks for after you "know what you're doing" as it were. There's no point in wearing out or destroying a $1200 set of tires when you're only really working on learning what a line is, and playing with braking and turning techniques. Once you get to the point where you are literally KILLING everything in your run group, and the blue/yellow flag means "look out, here comes JA BoostedSTANG," that's the time to make the jump from HPDE-1/2 up to HPDE-3. Stay on the streets at first, because EVERYBODY in that run group is going to pass you like crazy. Once you start to keep up, and the only reason that they're pulling away from you is grip level in the corners, THEN put the slicks on. Just curious, but when you say "slicks," what tires are you referring to? As for sizes, yes, just stick with a single size all the way around. Two huge benefits: 1) the car is more neutral than with staggered sizes, 2) you can rotate front to rear, which will nearly double the life of your tires. With staggered sizes, you have to rotate side-to-side, and since that's an $80 deal (dismount, flip, mount, balance), it tends to not get done. And lastly, the most important reason: See number 1 above...
 
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The tires are nitto nt01 275/40/18 all the way around I bought them from my buddy he couldn't fit them under his nissian.
 

SoundGuyDave

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Awesome! Those will be fun tires after you get to the point where the street rubber holds you back. They'll also last a reasonable amount of time, if you don't DD on them.
 

Kaldar142

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i've noticed, and this is from personal experience also that really sticky tires will make you appear to be a really good driver and hide nearly all your mistakes.

i tracked my subie with R-comps and then put on some street tires and showed my true skill... LOL so i would recommend to anyone starting off to definitely start with street tires and work your way up, because by getting really sticky tires alls your doing is hindering yourself.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I agree completely. The same can be said for horsepower... With big power you could just about get out and PUSH the car around the corner, and still be hauling the mail at the end of the straight, so you think you know what you're doing.

Best way to learn is on something like a Miata or a 944. You have GOT to be smooth, consistent, and on-line or else you'll know it in a heartbeat. It takes LAPS to get back up to speed!!! With lots of horses under the hood, you could butcher a corner, and the only thing you'll notice is that at the end of the straight, you're only doing 120 instead of 126...
 
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I agree completely. The same can be said for horsepower... With big power you could just about get out and PUSH the car around the corner, and still be hauling the mail at the end of the straight, so you think you know what you're doing.

Best way to learn is on something like a Miata or a 944. You have GOT to be smooth, consistent, and on-line or else you'll know it in a heartbeat. It takes LAPS to get back up to speed!!! With lots of horses under the hood, you could butcher a corner, and the only thing you'll notice is that at the end of the straight, you're only doing 120 instead of 126...

yea I've noticed that on the auto x coarce big time a few times everyone thinks I'm hauling ass cause they can hear my car screaming but all in all my times are about average cause of the lack in other areas
 

Sam Strano

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Wish you would have called.... Sorry, didn't know this site was here until today. Hard to keep up.

H&R is a brand I carry. Good quality, but frankly the non-adjustable damper is an issue for me. Way too much tuning can be done via shock to just not care about it.

Coil-over wise a set of KW Variant 3's would have a been something to consider, but really I'd have recommended Koni Sports and a good set of springs like Steeda Comp, H&R Race, maybe even some of the firmer rate street springs like Ultralites. I'll take adjustable dampers and plain old lowering springs (that are good rate and height) over "coil-overs" any day because the cross weights on these cars just aren't that screwed up that you'll gain much. But you'll shoot a big hole in your wallet buying cool parts.

I'd also recommend a better balanced set of swaybars, like Earl had mentioned. The 9" front, 10" rear wheel combo isn't much help balance wise either. I'd run 10's all around. As for the brakes--rotors aren't the issue, but if you were going to upgrade I'd have skipped the rears, and gone to 2 piece fronts to save a lot of unsprung and rotational mass, and upgraded the pads as well. To what depends on the use. Hawk HPS and HP Plus are NOT track pads. Fine for autox, but this is one place the two are very different.
 

SoundGuyDave

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I'll take adjustable dampers and plain old lowering springs (that are good rate and height) over "coil-overs" any day because the cross weights on these cars just aren't that screwed up that you'll gain much. But you'll shoot a big hole in your wallet buying cool parts.

Sam, you are the man, but there is more to coilovers than just corner-weighting. Different tracks like different spring rates, and it's SOOOOO much cheaper getting a few sets of 2.5"x10" springs than it is hunting down S197-specific sets. Some tracks I run are super-smooth, almost like they shave the track surface, and I anticipate running extremely heavy-rate springs to take advantage of that. Other tracks which are, um, bumpy?, would be much better served by softer rates... Also, some of the coilover kit vendors (you know who they are) use a custom-shortened Koni adjustable as the basis for the kit, which maintains the full suspension travel range, even with the ride height lowered.

As for the brakes--rotors aren't the issue, but if you were going to upgrade I'd have skipped the rears, and gone to 2 piece fronts to save a lot of unsprung and rotational mass, and upgraded the pads as well. To what depends on the use. Hawk HPS and HP Plus are NOT track pads. Fine for autox, but this is one place the two are very different.
I agree with your statements 100%! I have two caveats, however... 1) The two-piece rotors most likely won't last any longer than a standard OE rotor, and cost roughly 5 times as much for just the friction rings and bolt kit. With my car, I go through three sets of rotors a season, at least, and the cost differential there would make it less than attractive to go to the two-piece rotor. Other than that, you are completley correct about the rotating mass. 2) I agree that the HPS and HP+ are not track pads, but want to point out two things... First, the S197 chassis responds well to a bit more front bias in the braking, and running a slightly less aggressive pad compound in the rear really wakes the car up when trail-braking. Second, for beginners, it's far too easy to over-brake the car in terms of pad compound. I've seen HPDE-1 beginners have braking problems with "race brakes" simply because they aren't carrying enough speed to heat the brakes up to minimum operating temp, and as a result, have inconsistent braking rates and points, which leads to a lack of confidence, and that untimately hurts progression. I base my recommendation on the pad compounds (HT-10 front, HP+ rear) for novice drivers who want to make sure their brakes will make it through a weekend, but aren't to the point where the generate the heat to cook those low-level pads. I run DTC-60 front and HT-10 rear, but next season, I'm upping the ante to DTC-70 front and DTC-60 rear, to get a little more initial bite out of the pedal. That kind of brake package can withstand 1600*F temps, and it's a rare novice that will approach the 400*F minimum operating temp. The HT-10 comes in at around 300*, which they will get to, and can withstand up to 1300*, which is pretty desirable for a 35000-4000lb car in the hands of a novice. Other than that specific situation, a novice on a road course, I wouldn't recommend either of them to my worst enemy... I've also had pretty good success with the Carbotech XP10/XP8 for less experienced drivers that may have outgrown the HT-10.

Other than that, I find your analyses to be extremely helpful, and nobody can deny that you REALLY know the dynamics of the S197 chassis!
 

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