KB Boost-A-Spark Installed

JeremyH

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Yeah im sure theres limits on effiecieny as you increase gap and spark when it comes to forced induction, doesnt look like anyones spent too much time on this subject figuring it out yet lol

I guess trial by error and some datalogging/dyno time would be the best bet, it would still be hard to optimize completely as the car isnt always gonna be under boost.
 

RRRoamer

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+100000000000000000000

Energy from coil = 1/2 L I² L = inductance I = current.

Good coils (MSD for example) will show you how many milliamps they're pulling. The higher the number, the better the spark, since Energy goes as current squared (same as [voltage/resistance]²).


Boosting the voltage on the primary side raises the current; more current = more spark energy.

A good coil will have a shitload of inductance and low internal resistance to alllow current to flow; that means windings with larger diameter wire.

Don't be fooled by voltage output as the way to compare a coil. Look for high inductance and low resistance (higher current flow).

:2cents: & HTH

Mike

I've always laughed every time I see an ad for a XX thousand volt coil. They NEVER mention current or inductance.

This is really a problem with COPS as they have a fairly fixed space to operate in. If they want to make their super high voltage coils, they have to increase the turns ratio on the secondary side or decrease the turns on the primary side. The first method increases the resistance so it kills the current capability. It's even worse as they will probably have to go with smaller wire to make room for those extra turns. The second method kills the inductance, so it kills the energy of the coil.

In some ways, it was easier in the old days when we only had a single coil. That Accel Super Coil I put on my pickup has about twice as much volume and three times the weight of the stock coil, so there was never any question about the turns ratios or the inductance of the beast. Lots of copper in there.
 

lito

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I can understand that, but sounded like he was running them ungapped prior to installing the BAS.

Yes, I've received cars making around that boost or even a little more on centris with stock plugs stock gapped and they actually ran well, durability of the plug is another thing but yes sometimes they work. For that levels of boost you don't need to gap them too close but every case is different.
 

shanec

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I had plug supply voltage issues (too low), my numbers should be higher now, sure as hell feels like it going down the road. It has shitload more TQ and topend........

How can you tell if you have plug supply voltage issues?

i'm trying to solve spark blowout myself.
 

tillman speed

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Just so everyone knows the background...

The OP's car had perfect looking datalogs. Air flow was showing that of a car making 475+RWHP, the timing was showing spot on whatever we commanded (and we've tried between 16-24 degrees at WOT) on 93 octane. The air/fuel was verified using different widebands/sensors/etc. and we've verified it's also what we're commanding. We've tried everything from 11.5-12.3. The car just wouldn't make power. It was getting roughly 9PSI and the car will not make power. We had ONE run where it made power on the dyno, but something still wasn't right. This was with John Spruill, the engineer from TECHCO here in-house in Aston, PA tuning the car. Once it made power, we were happy with the results, and John from Techco went on his way. He was here because this was one of the first units, and they wanted to test results in the field. The original poster called us with results, and claimed "some days it runs its ass off, and some days it feels like crap". He had some weird check engine lights coming on, and other odd sypmtoms. We had him come back, and ran it again on the TECHCO tune and it only made a consistent 390-410 RWHP with the same exact tune it made 465RWHP on.

Compression/leakdown test results were great, as expected because the car had only 30,000 miles or so on it. So I said, okay let me retune this thing from scratch, using SCT software. So I set him up on the dyno and tuned it to find that the car still was only making roughly 390-410RWHP whether or not I tuned super aggresive or super conservative. All of the odd symptoms and check engine lights went away with our tuning, and the car felt more smooth but it still wasn't making the power.

In the mean time, we tried new coils, 4 sets of plugs, and numerous amounts of datalogging and retuning with different VCT maps, timing maps, etc. etc. Finally, we realized something in the PCM or ignition system had to be holding the car back. How can the car make the same amount of power with or without the gap being open or closed from 45 down to 30 with no other symptoms, blowout, etc. Just because the PID shows the car getting 18 degrees of timing at the PCM, doesn't mean that we're actually seeing it, it's just a vehicle PID.

At this point I think we have a weird voltage issue, pcm issue, or a problem in the harness. The customer wanted to try a boost a spark. Even if this worked and fixes the problem, the underlying issue is still there. It could just be enough of a jump in voltage to fix whatever he had going on in the mean time.

To make this clear, on every supercharged application for our S197 platform, it is recommended to change to a colder plug and gap them accordingly! He isn't making "more power" with the gap open, and that's not why we're running them that way. We were experimenting with the plug gap differences during our ignition problem hunting. Techco's original tune file set off misfire codes, and low ignition voltage codes which is where we started until we retuned and the codes went away.

When the customer brings us the car this time, we will gap the plugs back down at 30 and see what it makes for power. Again, I would much rather the car get dropped of so that we can route through the harness, and assess the PCM for voltage drop issues.

Chris Rose
Tillman Speed Inc.
 
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shanec

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Tell me about it.

I'm running an E-Force with 3.5" pulley, 61 lb injectors, GT500 pump, Edelbrock CAI upgrade w/ MAF, and FRPP plugs gapped at 0.030

Makes 450rwhp (JDM advertised 475, although I expected more like the 450 I'm getting). All good except at 5500+ rpm, I get puffs of black smoke out of the exhaust and hp dips of about 15hp. Looks like spark blowout? (I'd post my dyno chart if they didn't block photobucket at work)

I've replaced the OEM COPs with a new set of OEM COPs. Made no difference. Next up is a new set of FRPP plugs (after I get a clutch upgrade tomorrow, then wait to get that broken in).

*all these symptoms were happening long before the clutch started slipping.
 

05bluestang

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:yo:BTW, just want to tell everybody that CR and the Tillman crew have been great in trying to get this sorted out, and maybe some day we will actually find the problem after sifting trough miles of wire :sigh1:
 

kentompkins

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I had what I think sounds like a remarkably similar problem. Even my achieved dyno RWHP numbers are very close. 420 this time 460 next time...

Check this out:

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28207

I had a bad plug...

Switched to HTOs from Brisk, replaced COPs, re-installed the GT500 pumps, compression tests, cylinder scopes, etc.... you name it - I did it.

I hope for you that it's something simple like this...
 

05bluestang

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I had what I think sounds like a remarkably similar problem. Even my achieved dyno RWHP numbers are very close. 420 this time 460 next time...

Check this out:

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28207

I had a bad plug...

Switched to HTOs from Brisk, replaced COPs, re-installed the GT500 pumps, compression tests, cylinder scopes, etc.... you name it - I did it.

I hope for you that it's something simple like this...

Thanks for the info, I don't think it's the plugs, we tryied a bazillion diifferent ones with the same result...........
 

tillman speed

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Shit, I WISH it would be something like a plug. That would put an end to the saga! LOL

Helmut, see you Saturday... I've got my fingers crossed! I want to make sure we get 3 consecutive pulls with correct numbers!
 

akula52

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MSD cops

Not to jack the thread, but are the MSD COPs worth the money and any benifit over OE COPs? My car oscilated between a smooth idle and a breif idle that like grumbles for half a second (when it runs). Just wondering if that could be a worth while expenditure? Thanks
 

one eyed willy

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Not to jack the thread, but are the MSD COPs worth the money and any benifit over OE COPs? My car oscilated between a smooth idle and a breif idle that like grumbles for half a second (when it runs). Just wondering if that could be a worth while expenditure? Thanks


my freind just replaced his msd's with oems becuase he was having problems, soon as he put the oems back in,started running better.
 

akula52

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rough

I have read about every post about aftermarket cops and the discussion years ago here and results were mixed. I guess they are still mixed and it is good for some and doesn't do crap for others, but I think I will have to try a set. At least they are cheaper now. Thanks
 

MikeVistaBlue06

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Shit, I WISH it would be something like a plug. That would put an end to the saga! LOL

Helmut, see you Saturday... I've got my fingers crossed! I want to make sure we get 3 consecutive pulls with correct numbers!


The ECU may have an issue. There have been several folks have their ECUs go bad on them causing all sorts of weird shit to happen.

HTH

Mike
 

05bluestang

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The ECU may have an issue. There have been several folks have their ECUs go bad on them causing all sorts of weird shit to happen.

HTH

Mike

Yup, that will be the next switch. Here is what I'm gonna try, we'll throw it on the dyno this Saturday (if I don't get fucking snowed in today, Mustangs and snow don't mix), if the BAS helped I am going to get a new harness from Ford down the road ($250.00 from Ford for my production run), if that don't work I'll replace the PCM, thats about $550.00 from Ford, and if that don't work I'll shoot the fucking thing............:dead2:
 

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