Anyone else read the 451hp NA 3 valve motor write up in Dec 2008 MM&FF?

[RRRoamer]

So they are claiming to go from 313hp/314ft-lb (engine dyno with no accessories) to 420hp/354ft-lb (quite a bit higher in the rpm range) with the only change being a set of Livernois stage 3 heads! They then added the Comp stage 4 cams and VTC lockouts and got it up to 451hp/401ft-lb...

Ok. I personally have a VERY hard time believing these numbers! I realize this engine was run on the dyno with long tube headers (all runs) and no CAI (using a FAST XFI system with no MAF), but STILL! a 33% increase in power from ONLY a head change???

I've seen bogus numbers in there mags before, so I decided to run the numbers through Excel to verify the HP numbers. Remember, HP is a CALCULATED value (there is no such thing as a HP gauge. You have to measure torque and rpm and then calculate HP from that) using the equation hp=torque*rpm/5252 (for the Emperial numbers at any rate) Here is what I got, starting with the stock numbers:

RPM Torque Stock Claimed HP Stock Actual HP Stock Delta Stock
2500 0 0
2600 0 0
2700 0 0
2800 0 0
2900 0 0
3000 0 0
3100 258 163 152 11
3200 261 171 159 12
3300 261 182 164 18
3400 263 193 170 23
3500 266 204 177 27
3600 272 213 186 27
3700 278 217 196 21
3800 279 221 202 19
3900 285 224 212 12
4000 292 232 222 10
4100 301 241 235 6
4200 308 247 246 1
4300 314 252 257 -5
4400 314 259 263 -4
4500 312 264 267 -3
4600 309 271 271 0
4700 307 276 275 1
4800 304 279 278 1
4900 303 284 283 1
5000 303 292 288 4
5100 302 296 293 3
5200 301 301 298 3
5300 298 306 301 5
5400 297 310 305 5
5500 294 313 308 5
5600 290 309 309 0
5700 286 302 310 -8
5800 280 301 309 -8
5900 0 0
6000 0 0
6100 0 0
6200 0 0
6300 0 0
6400 0 0
6500 0 0
6600 0 0
6700 0 0
6800 0 0

Torque is in the first column, claimed HP in the second column, calculated (aka: actual) hp in the third column and then the calculated delta between the claimed and actual HP number (=Claimed - Actual). Did you notice how different the numbers are? Perhaps you noticed that down low, they seam to be artificially inflating their claims, but in the meat of the power band (from 4100 to 5800 rpm), they are either close to or LESS than the actual hp. Strange how they could have such a gross error in their stock numbers, now isn't it???

Now let's look at the Heads only run, again the columns are setup exactly like the stock run:

RPM Claimed HP Heads Torque Heads Actual HP Heads Delta Heads
2500 130 249 119 11
2600 134 255 126 8
2700 142 261 134 8
2800 158 267 142 16
2900 166 272 150 16
3000 171 276 158 13
3100 174 282 166 8
3200 182 288 175 7
3300 201 289 182 19
3400 215 292 189 26
3500 223 293 195 28
3600 238 295 202 36
3700 245 298 210 35
3800 250 298 216 34
3900 254 301 224 30
4000 260 308 235 25
4100 265 312 244 21
4200 271 319 255 16
4300 278 324 265 13
4400 288 329 276 12
4500 299 335 287 12
4600 310 338 296 14
4700 322 342 306 16
4800 331 346 316 15
4900 336 349 326 10
5000 344 351 334 10
5100 351 352 342 9
5200 354 354 350 4
5300 363 349 352 11
5400 369 346 356 13
5500 374 342 358 16
5600 380 339 361 19
5700 385 333 361 24
5800 390 330 364 26
5900 398 326 366 32
6000 408 320 366 42
6100 420 315 366 54
6200 408 309 365 43
6300 412 302 362 50
6400 410 296 361 49
6500 405 291 360 45
6600 404 284 357 47
6700 401 280 357 44
6800 398 276 357 41

Look at those numbers!!! The claimed hp is being boosted ACROSS THE BOARD by a MINIMUM of 4 hp and a MAXIMUM of FIFTY FOUR HP!!! I'm sure that was all just an innocent mistake... Maybe they just screwed the correction factory... Oh. Wait. That would have affected both the torque AND the HP, so the calculated "actual HP" would NOT be off from their supposed correction factor numbers.

Now, the results for the run with the cams are very interesting indeed:

RPM Claimed HP Cams Torque Cams Actual HP Cams Delta Cams
2500 150 301 143 7
2600 154 302 150 4
2700 161 304 156 5
2800 166 305 163 3
2900 171 306 169 2
3000 178 307 175 3
3100 184 312 184 0
3200 211 322 196 15
3300 222 331 208 14
3400 232 340 220 12
3500 241 345 230 11
3600 246 348 239 7
3700 252 351 247 5
3800 260 355 257 3
3900 271 357 265 6
4000 276 359 273 3
4100 282 361 282 0
4200 291 362 289 2
4300 302 362 296 6
4400 311 364 305 6
4500 322 365 313 9
4600 332 366 321 11
4700 341 366 328 13
4800 350 368 336 14
4900 354 370 345 9
5000 362 371 353 9
5100 370 373 362 8
5200 376 376 372 4
5300 382 384 388 -6
5400 387 394 405 -18
5500 391 401 420 -29
5600 394 388 414 -20
5700 398 365 396 2
5800 406 362 400 6
5900 410 360 404 6
6000 414 358 409 5
6100 421 355 412 9
6200 433 341 403 30
6300 439 336 403 36
6400 445 322 392 53
6500 451 310 384 67
6600 445 299 376 69
6700 440 291 371 69
6800 439 285 369 70

I'm not sure WHAT they where doing here. Small boost through 80% of the run, but they take out quite a bit of "real" power from 5300 to 5600 rpm, then go INSANE adding up to 70 hp at 6800 rpm!!!!

The numbers do NOT lie here: Someone is making shit up to post in the magazine article. Look at it this way: There is NO WAY IN HELL that a simple head + cam swap will increase your VE enough to get a 50% increase in power! It's just NOT going to happen on these 3V heads. Think of it this way: People are running superchargers with 6 psi of boost to get these kinds of numbers (at the wheels). Do you really think the stock intake has 4 to 6 psi of vacuum in it at WOT??? I don't...

So the real question is this: Is MM&FF intentionally trying to blow smoke up people's asses here? Is the dyno shop (this case, Livernois) playing games with the numbers they are giving MM&FF? Or does MM&FF have some stupid ass intern that doesn't know a thing about torque and hp randomly pull numbers out of his/her ass for their articles???

And just for the record, this is NOT the first time (or even the second time) that I have caught MM&FF playing games with dyno results. The last biggie that I dug into was the infamous BBK throttle body + tune + CAI that game 50hp. That one was even easier to spot: they had a fixed "offset" in the calculated values for the after that boosted up the hp by something like 30 hp across the board (I don't remember the exact number, it's been too long).

So, am I nuts and have completely forgotten how to calculate hp? Can someone from Livernois post the real dyno shots, or explain this junk?

 

[fordracing]

Agree 100% I have my doubts about this as well....


Thanks for posting it though!

 

[CataclysmGT]

A+ for effort!

 

[Hitman]

I bet mine would make an easy 400 on an engine dyno. With bigger cams and Stg.4 heads I don't see where 450 would be a problem. They may have fudged the numbers a little bit. The JDM car made 401 at the wheel. Where does that put his at the crank? But you may be on to something.

 

[DirtyDogOfTheDesert]

Just like in the case of the 200mph star-trek car that was in modified mustangs last year, the magazine writers, are WRITERS not car guys. They just write down what someone is telling them. They don't know if it is true or not.

 

[DKO]

Here's an idea... ASK THE LIVERNOIS guys who are vendors on this site! It was their products and it was done in their shop.

GENIUS!

 

[DKO]

Just like in the case of the 200mph star-trek car that was in modified mustangs last year, the magazine writers, are WRITERS not car guys. They just write down what someone is telling them. They don't know if it is true or not.

Yea, and Evan Smith is a terrible driver

 

[GERMANSHEPERD]

HMMMMM I think if ONLY ported heads got you 100HP nobody would EVER sell a blower EVER again. sorry but i have to call BS on that article. I remember another test from MM&FF " TRI-POWER" they tested FRPP CNC heads on a PROCHARGER 3V and picked up 33HP at the tires.....Ok now you say Livernois is better, ok Id bet they are but your going to tell me they make MORE THAN DOUBLE on a N/A motor?.....

 

[DKO]

HMMMMM I think if ONLY ported heads got you 100HP nobody would EVER sell a blower EVER again. sorry but i have to call BS on that article. I remember another test from MM&FF " TRI-POWER" they tested FRPP CNC heads on a PROCHARGER 3V and picked up 33HP at the tires.....Ok now you say Livernois is better, ok Id bet they are but your going to tell me they make MORE THAN DOUBLE on a N/A motor?.....

I didn't say that, I said ask Rick to comment on the test, I'll spare you the leg work though and PM him the link. Also, the Livernois heads tested were the most extreme setup they offer I believe, not the most suitable for a street car, I would think. It does show the potential though.

 

[TGJ]

This is the exact reason why as I put very little into what is printed in a Magazine.

 

[Livernois Motorsports]

I'm going to have Mike from engine build comment, because I'm sure he will have more knowledge than myself on this.

I read the article and found that it can be misleading. They make it sound like our Stage 3 heads pick up 150 HP on a stock 3V. If you read the article closely, it states that the engine has our stage 3 heads, Comp stage 4 cams, headers, and no accessories other than the water pump.

Realistic chassis dyno numbers for a similar combo are:

Livernois Motorsports Stage 3 CNC Cylinder Heads
Livernois Motorsports Cam Phaser Limiters
Comp 127300 Camshafts
Kook's Longtube Headers and X-Pipe w/Cats
Corsa Axle-Back Exhaust System
C&L CAI
Tuned by Livernois Motorsports

Stock, it made 262 RWHP, after the mods, it made 370 RWHP / 340 RWTQ.

Regards,

Rick LeBlanc [FONT=&quot]
Livernois Motorsports
[/FONT]

 

[mike@livernois]

Hmm... I am going to have to dig a little deeper into the numbers here. To be honest I have only looked at the article in magazine form once. I kind of just skimmed over the pictures and did not fully read it.

Upon first glance some of the numbers seem right while others look wrong. Kind of almost like some of the graphs are shifted one way or the other. Some of the peak numbers look okay but I will have to see what the exact setup is that is supposed to go with each set of numbers. I know we have dyno tested engines in that power area before but the graphs do seem like they could be shifted one way or the other.

Let me pull up the actual dyno graphs I have and compare the numbers to see what's up.

Thanks
Mike

 

[fordracing]

The plot thickens...

 

[mike@livernois]

Well, without getting to far into the numbers I did see that it looks like the peak power number is correct based on the dyno graph I have. I did not find the engine dyno graph yet but if you calculate out the chassis dyno graph that I have that lists 385RWHP on a car that has the stage 3 heads and stage 4 cams plus all the other bolt ons it comes out to 452 HP. Of course this is just a calculation based on 15% drivetrain loss. So at least that number is close. Now I have to look into the other numbers to see what is going on.

Thanks
Mike

 

[05murda]

Mm&ff ( Mindless Morons & Fu*kin Fakers)

AGREED, UNFORTUNATELY OUR LIL 281 W/ JUST HEADS, CAMS, AND HEADERS WILL NOT MAKE 450 HORSEPOWER. THANKS FOR POSTING THIS READ THE ARTICLE IN MM&FF AND I WAS JUST WAITING FOR THE REASON AS TO HOW THE PULLED THAT NUMBER OUT THERE ASS BUT O WELL. TO ANSWER ONE POSTERS COMMENTS YES HEADS AND CAMS CAN YEILD A HORSE POWER RATING SIMILAR TO THAT... JUST NOT ON A 3V 281, IF IT WAS A CHEVY LS1 THATS A DIFFERENT STORY..


JUST TO CLARIFY THAT WAS AT MM&FF NOT MIKE @ LIVERNOIS

 

[Hitman]

AGREED, UNFORTUNATELY OUR LIL 281 W/ JUST HEADS, CAMS, AND HEADERS WILL NOT MAKE 450 HORSEPOWER. THANKS FOR POSTING THIS READ THE ARTICLE IN MM&FF AND I WAS JUST WAITING FOR THE REASON AS TO HOW THE PULLED THAT NUMBER OUT THERE ASS BUT O WELL. TO ANSWER ONE POSTERS COMMENTS YES HEADS AND CAMS CAN YEILD A HORSE POWER RATING SIMILAR TO THAT... JUST NOT ON A 3V 281, IF IT WAS A CHEVY LS1 THATS A DIFFERENT STORY..

Who the fuck are you? Look at your first post. Now who's the fucktard?

 

[05murda]

This Is A Forum To Give Your Thoughts .. Steriods Shrinks Ur Balls .. Roid Rage Anyon

Wow What The Fuck Is Ur Problem .. I Think Your Taken This Post Lil To Serious There Fuckin Online Thread Tough Guy.. I Dont Even See How You Could Be Mad At That Dam

first off this was not a shot at livernois
second it was a comparison of

4.6 3v 281 w/ heads cams headers, accessory delete (such as a/c) on an engine dyno regardless of the car normally making 260-270 hp (manual), so at a base line of 313 hp they acheived 450 hp .... so 137 hp.... no way

chevy 5.7 ls1 or 6.0 ls2 with similar work performed would make these numbers

we new the ups and downs of the s197 when we bought it .... but these numbers are a pipe dream .. i wish they were true .. but reality is a bitch

so if you cant play nicely with the big boys shut the fuck up

 

[Hitman]

Wow What The Fuck Is Ur Problem .. I Think Your Taken This Post Lil To Serious There Fuckin Online Thread Tough Guy.. I Dont Even See How You Could Be Mad At That Dam

wow. Nice 2nd post.

 

[Vapor08gt]

Wow What The Fuck Is Ur Problem .. I Think Your Taken This Post Lil To Serious There Fuckin Online Thread Tough Guy.. I Dont Even See How You Could Be Mad At That Dam

Where's SD when you need him? What he is saying is check your grammar. Last time I checked letting yourself come off like an uneducated moron will not let you survive long around here. Use facts to back up your comments or statements then put them into a concise statement that actually makes sense. Got it?

 

[ArtQ]

Wow What The Fuck Is Ur Problem .. I Think Your Taken This Post Lil To Serious There Fuckin Online Thread Tough Guy.. I Dont Even See How You Could Be Mad At That Dam

Schwartz: Well I double-DOG-dare ya!
Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] NOW it was serious. A double-dog-dare. What else was there but a "triple dare ya"? And then, the coup de grace of all dares, the sinister triple-dog-dare.
Schwartz: I TRIPLE-dog-dare ya!
Ralphie as Adult: [narrating] Schwartz created a slight breach of etiquette by skipping the triple dare and going right for the throat!