Autocross help

[Sam Strano]

*sigh* I wasn't punching anyone in the face. But this is the internet, and the most frustrating thing for me is when things get posted like "this is great, and that rocks" without any sense of context. If we are talking about setting up a car, I'm sorry that I think details like speed (because I assume that is point of the mods), matter. Am I wrong?

Cars behave differently at the limit than under it. A stock Mustang cruises down the road pretty well the way Ford built it. We change them to make them do things better. The harder you drive them, the more you push them, the more things get stressed and the more precisely things have to work, and the more small details start to matter.

Also, the classing... like it or not Sky has mods that put him in a class that the car isn't competitive. It that's ok with him, that's fine, but it should be pointed out because it might not be ok with everyone. Not to mention I don't have those mods on my cars, and the cars were PLENTY fast.

I'm a nice guy. I offered Sky (who's name is Vince) a ride so he could see what it was like, and whether or not he will admit it here, he was pretty surprised by what was going on in that car, and also surprised when I answered his question about how fast can a Mustang go by telling him an ESP car will run Super Stock (the class car he was riding in) speeds.

Maybe I'm nuts to think that this sort of information matters. If I am, I apologize. But let's flip this coin over. Sky writes articles for an online magazine. Whiteline is being very aggressive about their stuff, and I'm quite sure there is a connection. I'm not saying he's fibbing or anything, he might well like the stuff fine. But what basis for comparison is there? That's my issue, and while many might not like it, I am free to have that opinion and I can usually back up my opinions of what works and what doesn't pretty well though results.

Two guys can squabble for a year, it's he said/he said. How do you pick a winner? I think that the proof is in pudding, so to speak. Results prove how things work, that's why I choose to compete, at a high level to make myself, and my setups, better. I don't know what other way there is to prove anything, and I'm not ok with empty words which is what the internet is filled with.

That's all. I know it's blunt, and I don't tend to dance around this stuff. I work hard for my money, and I know you guys do too. I have NEVER run a comped part that I was testing and evaluating because I wanted to the parts to stand on their own. I also don't comp. parts to magazines. GM High Tech Performance did a car back in 2007 with my stuff, because the Editor wanted my stuff and he wrote an article about it afterwards with his opinions. He loved it, car went a crapload faster on track and he daily drove it across NYC. But that opinion didn't show because I gave him the parts, because I didn't.

 

[Red_Devil]

Sam how many Whiteline Mustang products have you tested?

 

[modernbeat]

...

 

[Sam Strano]

How many Whiteline Mustang products have I tested? Well, the LCA brackets aren't legal for the classes I would run, but if they were I'd want them to be adjustable. I think it's a complete cop out to claim that there is one perfect setting. The LCA's, haven't run those either, for the same reason, not legal for any class the car is competitive, and I've yet to get any explanation from anyone as to what makes the bushings work in rotation freely enough to want to use them. The Watts link I personally won't use because I don't think it's 100% above protest because of the diff cover and if I am going through the trouble of installing a lateral location device to absolutely minimize side to side movement, I don't want bushings. Also having a thicker diff cover doesn't help with heat from the diff on things like track days, etc. The Sway bars. Well, I think I'm on record there. The front bar is solid and I think it's silly... or actually stupid, to drag that weight around. The rear bar, same thing. I see one benefit of the rear bar vs. mine, that's tire clearance, but then that rear bar won't work with the Watts link design I prefer (and I think is legal for ST and ESP Autocross).

How many Strano Performance Parts has Whiteline tested? I'm a little guy, I make very few things myself.. in fact for the Mustang I only make bars for myself. I only do that when I feel I can do a better job. I have no reason to not sell Whiteline stuff (and in fact I do, and just had a long conversation with Tom @ Whiteline about this very thread, and he seems to get where I'm coming from). In fact I *HAVE* Whiteline parts on my FR-S... so I'm not at all anti Whiteline start to finish (or in fact at all). But I'm also not going to just stay quiet when parts are thrown around for evlauation, proclaimed to be kick ass, based on very unscientific testing and with any comparison to say what I do.

In case this isn't blunt enough. I don't jump into things blindly. Jared, you contacted me many times about being a dealer. I wasn't ready because I wanted to see more stuff in action, and hear more about customer evals.... from folks who didn't get stuff for free to "test" and then write about, but from paying customers. One of my biggest WD's (that's warehouse distributor to those not aware) is a Whiteline disributor as well, so I wasn't in a big hurry because I can get things from them even if I don't get them from you directly. Well, I saw enough that I felt I wanted to add Whiteline to what I had to offer. I did the paperwork, etc. And nothing. Been months and nothing. In fact I even PM'ed you at some point and, nothing. All I've seen was a mass email stating that the ordering email address what changing. That's it. No price sheet, no nothing. So to be honest that doesn't sit well with me. Tom and I discussed that this evening as well.

Going back to the issue of what Whiteline parts have I used on the Mustang and I guess that trying to show I've got something against Whiteline. Well, there are some parts I will use, some I won't, from all kinds of companies. I tend to like Koni shocks a lot, but some have been a disaster. I use a lot of UMI suspension parts, but some I just won't touch. Same with Steeda, MM, etc., etc. I know how things work, I've personally owned 2 S197's since 2007, raced another, and my ex-girlfriend had one too. That's 4 cars I've had easy, ready access too, all setup somewhat differently to test things, not including all the customer's cars.

I tend to get myself in trouble because I don't pander. That's what I hate about politics. I don't pander, and I will not change now. There is nothing completely new to be discovered here. One of the biggest proponents of the Whiteline Watts link now, refused to run a Watts link before (never even tested one) and was running a PHB setup (and telling everyone how great it was. I'm not like that, and for all my faults, I will tell you or anyone else why I think what I think... I will not just say "I don't like that". Unfortunately, I'm fighting reviews that are often based on free product and lack any sort of technical detail, or actual testing. And since the world often believes what they read... I have to sometimes be even more blunt when I disagree.

To summarize: I can and do sell Whiteline products (when I believe they are the right thing for the job). I get it through my largest WD AND have done direct paperwork (and heard nothing to this point). I use some of it one of my own cars where I deem it appropriate. But because it's right for certain things on the FR-S, doesn't mean is it for the Mustang. By the same token, doesn't mean very Mustang item is junk either. Just more inclined to use certain things in certain places. Whiteline has given me nothing. I've asked for nothing. I don't want anything for free, because I don't want to be biased in any way. That's not the case universally, including people who have responded here.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

The legality of Whiteline's S197 Watts Links vs other brands is still very debatable, but isn't questioned by any/many active racers in the ESP class at the moment (other than Sam, who traditionally sells Fays2 Watts Links). I ran this Whiteline Watts Link openly at the Solo Nationals and heard not a peep from the 33 competitors. We will get this clarified for SCCA ESP use before Nationals next year, of course, but I can argue the Fays2 being "just as illegal" as anything else, or just as legal. It all depends on you interpret the word "free".

This whole legality argument is a red herring, in my eyes. The legality of any aftermarket LCA brackets or tubular lower control arms in E Street Prepared isn't much of an argument, however. Moving pick up points or changing the rear lower control arms on a solid axle car in SP is verboten. All of this really only applies to SCCA autocrossers in ESP class - which isn't a very big percentage of readers on this forum.

Our "ESP" car running Whiteline LCA brackets, LCArms, and Watts link at non-SCCA events/classes

All that legality stuff being said, we have used and tested all three Whiteline parts mentioned above (LCA brackets, LCA arms, and Watts Link) on our "ESP Mustang", first hand, this year. We have tested with the 2 obviously not-legal ESP parts in other forms of competition (time trial events on road courses) and other classes in autocrossing than ESP. As such I have before and after driving impressions from the installation of these parts, not just theoretical comments, and have driven cars with other branded Watts Links as well. If the rules allowed for a LCA relocation bracket I would do it on any lowered S197. Period. There are a dozen or more options, many of them with great reviews from thousands of users, and the Whiteline bracket works just as well as most in my opinion. Same for their LCArms. Their Watts Link is significantly different than anything else out there, though. And better in many ways.

I sell Whiteline parts because I have installed/used/raced on them and know they work very well, and are better than anything else we have tried to date. Is that being a shill or just honesty? You have to know me to know that answer, I guess. Otherwise I'm just some schmuck behind a keyboard, like anyone else. If you read my posts and watch our videos and follow our many build threads it might give you some idea of what we're about. Making a quick buck shilling some crap part isn't what I do at my company - and I'm not saying anyone else here is either. I have reasons why we are using the Whiteline parts and, as a competitor at heart, if I felt there was a better option you better believe it would be on my car!

What I prefer in the Whiteline versions of the control arms and Watts Link kits, beyond the quality and fit of their parts, are their proprietary polymer bushings used at all major articulation points - instead of spherical bearings on other brands/models. Sphericals on a Watts Link will always make a helluva racket. Walking the ESP grid this year at the SCCA Solo Nationals I talked to a number of racers using the Fays2 Watts and several complained of the constant banging noises on the street from the spherical bearings. Just a fundamental difference in design. We tried some "delrin" sphericals in an upper control arm replacement on our S197 this year and it also made some godawful racket. Sphericals in control arms don't belong on a street car at all, in my opinion. But a dedicated race car or autocross car or drag that never sees the street? Sure, that's fine, as long as it is class legal.

So many of the aftermarket doo-dads available for the S197 can run afoul of SCCA or NASA classing rules - you just have to read and know your class ruleset before you buy anything. If in doubt, ask a lot of people. You won't always get the same answer from every source, so be thorough. And no matter the rules, if the parts in question have spherical bearings in place of rubber bushings, talk to the manufacturer, an experienced dealer and end users to ask: "Will these add a lot of noise??" If that matters to you find out, so at least you can know this up front.

Sam likes to point out how "stupid" Whiteline swaybars are. He has done it in several threads on this forum. So be it - it is a free country. While I do see some of his points about unsprung weight, I think that is a much smaller issue than the results and stiffness range they can and do provide. I have used stock, Eibach and Whiteline swaybars in competition and testing and stuck with the Whiteline units, that I paid for and tested with. They provided more ultimate front roll stiffness and more adjustment holes/range than the Eibach bars did, so I kept them on our car. I wasn't paid to do that, and I took the "ones of pounds" hit that came with them. And you have to remember - Sam sells his own branded swaybars, which are often smaller than stock, and I will admit I don't agree on that set-up method. There is nothing magic in swaybars, but there are key differences among several choices. Ask racers what they use and why. I have pointed out why I like the Whiteline swaybars. I sell a number of other options, too.

Sam has his National titles, experience, opinions and company to run, and I have my own. I respect his opinions and experience even when I don't agree with some of his statements, products or methods. Not trying to get into a pissing contest, but his arguments against Whiteline parts keep popping up, and I just don't think many of them have merit. After writing this I will "agree to disagree" and leave it at that.

Cheers,

 

[Random Asshole]

Well that was all an entertaining read. Somebody ought to make a sticky for the next Joe Blow to waltz in to find this out that our cars could benefit from good tires and shocks (and not much else) named "READ THIS EFFING FIRST" and we won't have the same material spewed up over and over again. And maybe a check mark to acknowledge you read said thread before starting another post.

And there's no such thing as an insult if you can back it up. (not that there even was one)

Carry on..

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Well that was all an entertaining read. Somebody ought to make a sticky for the next Joe Blow to waltz in to find this out that our cars could benefit from good tires and shocks (and not much else) named "READ THIS EFFING FIRST" and we won't have the same material spewed up over and over again. And maybe a check mark to acknowledge you read said thread before starting another post.

Agreed... we do see the same questions asked and answered on the same forums, sometimes hundreds of times. And many of the same arguments hashed and rehashed.

One of the few things I like on a... particular car forum that shall go unnamed... is their rule of "Don't start a new thread without doing searches for the same question first!". The moderators there are a little draconian about it, but it does prevent a lot of new yet identical threads form being started day after day.

 

[Random Asshole]

Agreed... we do see the same questions asked and answered on the same forums, sometimes hundreds of times. And many of the same arguments hashed and rehashed.

One of the few things I like on a... particular car forum that shall go unnamed... is their rule of "Don't start a new thread without doing searches for the same question first!". The moderators there are a little draconian about it, but it does prevent a lot of new yet identical threads form being started day after day.

I wish our forum had a more strict policy on that and/or fellow members flamed those members less familiar with forum rules in check. ahem corner-carvers

 

[Mach2burnout]

Not to mention you can argue parts all day long when the real difference is in the drivers seat. It's been proven time and time again.

Also how did a simple thread posted by a racer that just got into a new form of racing get all twisted into a products war between strano & whiteline?

Started out very informative.

No disrespect intended.

And I here crap about search search search and in my opinion the search function on s197forum is crap. That's why people post so many threads like this. JMO.


Sent from iPhone

 

[GOTTORQ]

I'm sorry if this is the 900th thread or question asked about the same subject, I didn't search this, but I'm kinda glad I didn't. There's more information in this one thread, revolving one subject than anything I could of searched for. And I think for the next guy who searches "autocross help" will find a wealth of information in one spot. I'm a rookie to this type of racing and all this information certainly helped me. I'll be sure to posts my results of the parts I buy and comparisons of before and after.

 

[Sam Strano]

Not to mention you can argue parts all day long when the real difference is in the drivers seat. It's been proven time and time again.

Also how did a simple thread posted by a racer that just got into a new form of racing get all twisted into a products war between strano & whiteline?

Started out very informative.

No disrespect intended.

And I here crap about search search search and in my opinion the search function on s197forum is crap. That's why people post so many threads like this. JMO.


Sent from iPhone

I'll keep it short. It's not a Strano v. Whiteline thing. Strano sells Whiteline, you can go see for yourself, I've been adding things on the website all night.

I am a racer, in fact a pretty damned proven one. I was pointing out that some recommendations made to the OP were going to hurt him with regards to what he said he wanted.

I am a Forum Sponsor. I think I have a responsibility to forum members to be honest. Others thing it's just about selling parts. Well, in case you haven't noticed I'm not a huge spammer, I don't go on and on with long blog type posts, etc. Yes, this is how I make my living. But I work extremely hard to make sure folks get what I think suits their needs the best (regardless of brand, I will often mix and match items to get just what I want). Being a sponsor and in business doens't make me a bad guy, it also doesn't make me always right, or always wrong either. I don't have an agenda other than happy customers, because they tend to return and recommend me to others.

Sorry for having tried to do the right thing, and for being honest. I guess I should learn to expect this from the internet peanut gallery.

Here is what I would recommend: Instead of basing ideas on what you read. Call around and talk to various vendors (myself included, but go ahead and call others). I'm pretty confident that most of the time I will explain things in the most straightforward way. And you know.... I can back it up.

I just had to add this: I'm not going to stand for being accused of being biased. I sell a big variety of brands, more so than most other vendors. I do sell Fays2 Watts Links. I also sell Steeda's, and <GASP> Whiteline's too!!!! I used Fays2 links to win a lot of events, as have other customers, including the current and reigning ESP National Champion (and has been since I last ran and won ESP in 2006). I won't apologize for using what works. As for my thinking the Whiteline bars are "stupid". Well, I don't think said that exactly, and I could well point out that those of you on my case about my not having used them, also haven't used mine (which were also out before the Whiteline stuff). I just think it's a little silly to drag around extra weight for no good reason and to spend more to do it.

Please read what I write, not between the lines.

 

[stkjock]

Sam, Terry, Dave

If any of you would like to write up a parts suggestion/application summary please let me know. I will create a sticky with all the varied views and suggestions.

 

[LS1EATINPONY]

Im down to read it if they are down to write it. I love reading this stuff. Not that just one persons interests are enough to be a deciding factor in this situation. I find so much good information in this subforum its not even funny. I find myself coming back on occasions to re- read things. Please do this guys....

 

[Mach2burnout]

I'll keep it short. It's not a Strano v. Whiteline thing. Strano sells Whiteline, you can go see for yourself, I've been adding things on the website all night.

I am a racer, in fact a pretty damned proven one. I was pointing out that some recommendations made to the OP were going to hurt him with regards to what he said he wanted.

I am a Forum Sponsor. I think I have a responsibility to forum members to be honest. Others thing it's just about selling parts. Well, in case you haven't noticed I'm not a huge spammer, I don't go on and on with long blog type posts, etc. Yes, this is how I make my living. But I work extremely hard to make sure folks get what I think suits their needs the best (regardless of brand, I will often mix and match items to get just what I want). Being a sponsor and in business doens't make me a bad guy, it also doesn't make me always right, or always wrong either. I don't have an agenda other than happy customers, because they tend to return and recommend me to others.

Sorry for having tried to do the right thing, and for being honest. I guess I should learn to expect this from the internet peanut gallery.

Here is what I would recommend: Instead of basing ideas on what you read. Call around and talk to various vendors (myself included, but go ahead and call others). I'm pretty confident that most of the time I will explain things in the most straightforward way. And you know.... I can back it up.

I just had to add this: I'm not going to stand for being accused of being biased. I sell a big variety of brands, more so than most other vendors. I do sell Fays2 Watts Links. I also sell Steeda's, and <GASP> Whiteline's too!!!! I used Fays2 links to win a lot of events, as have other customers, including the current and reigning ESP National Champion (and has been since I last ran and won ESP in 2006). I won't apologize for using what works. As for my thinking the Whiteline bars are "stupid". Well, I don't think said that exactly, and I could well point out that those of you on my case about my not having used them, also haven't used mine (which were also out before the Whiteline stuff). I just think it's a little silly to drag around extra weight for no good reason and to spend more to do it.

Please read what I write, not between the lines.

Sam I've ask your advise myself and followed your advice. And from the day I read the first post on this forum that I ever read I have had respect for you more than any other person in here. I have yet to actually purchase anything from you but I have searched your site many times and have put together a wish list from there. And I too, have been racing and around racing, setting up cars for many years. Albeit a totally different type/style of racing, racing just the same. And just for the record I/we have built 90% of our suspension parts ourselves and the entire chassis so I do know a little about suspension myself. However, things like sway bars are new to me.

You say you don't go on & on in blog style post yet every one of yours in this thread has been just that. I made a simple comment and you have the audacity to come back at me with all that BS!

I have lost a lot of respect for you today Mr. Strano! Probably don't mean much to you since you've really shown your arrogance in this thread. By the way we all know your a nat. Champ. You don't have to remind us in every post how good you are.


Sent from iPhone

 

[HushH]

Im down to read it if they are down to write it. I love reading this stuff. Not that just one persons interests are enough to be a deciding factor in this situation. I find so much good information in this subforum its not even funny. I find myself coming back on occasions to re- read things. Please do this guys....

+1. Would love to have a sticky summarizing all the vendors viewpoints on setups (particularly from those that actually race).

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I'm not qualified on the S197 to write a recipe, but if Sammy and/or Terry are willing, I think it would be productive. One of the reasons that the STS Civic exploded in popularity is that RedShift / Chris Shenefield put out a recipe for how to build one. It wouldn't get you the last few percent, because so much of that is driver and course dependent, but you could build a RedShift recipe car and if you drove right, have a pretty good shot at a National trophy.

 

[stkjock]

the Dave in my post was for SoundGuyDave

 

[Whiskey11]

I'm pretty sure Terry is already writing up a "How to prep your S197 Mustang for the road course". Now if only he would finish up his posts on both of his Mustangs!

 

[Jefro]

Don't know if it's been mentioned or not but here is what I've come up with doing research as I am about to get a set of track shoes.

Nitto NT555 - High performance street tires
Nitto NT05 - DOT Drag Radials
Nitto NT01 - DOT Track Tires

 

[Sky Render]

Don't know if it's been mentioned or not but here is what I've come up with doing research as I am about to get a set of track shoes.

Nitto NT555 - High performance street tires
Nitto NT05 - DOT Drag Radials
Nitto NT01 - DOT Track Tires

NT05s are street tires. They are not drag radials. You're thinking of the NT555R or NT05R.

The main difference between the '555s and '05s is the treadwear rating. The NT05s are much stickier but don't last as long.