Help me out w/ suspension

[fun4me]

I think you all are making a mountain out of a molehill.

You know what I'm doing to my FR-S that's on KW Coil-overs for the winter? I put Blizzaks on it. Done.

I don't get the issue here, maybe I'm missing something.

Right now I have a stock '12 brembo gt. Only mod is a one-piece DS.

I'm using the stock rims w/ winter tires.

I want a better handeling suspension, dampers in particular.

I have Yellows w hd mounts, P springs, front and rear(25mm) strano sways, and a panhard.

I want to install the yellows w/ P spring in front and 55d in the rear, with sways to get through the winter.

In the spring, I'll put on my staggered wheels w/ sticky rubber. At that point I'll be replacing the 55d rear spring w/ the P spring and putting in LCA's, adjustable UCA, and possibly relo brackets.

The whole reason I want to put the P srings in the front now is so I don't have to take out the front strut again in the spring.

Thanks for everyones advice.

 

[OkieSnuffBox]

salted promptly.

That's reason enough not to drive it.

 

[Sky Render]

Oversteer is lack of traction at the back. So when you add stiffness to a rear sway bar and it loosens up the back end you have decreased traction at the rear, it now oversteers. On paper the rear is carrying more weight transfer than before which means the front is carrying less of the weight transfer and it should work pefectly, but it can be a vicious cycle.

If you are trying to cure understeer you work on the front of the car, when you are satisfied that you have done everything you can with the front then you can tune with the rear bar to suit your driving style.

Not quite. Oversteer is when the rear of the car loses grip before the front does. "Traction" is only part of the issue. And saying you "work on the front of the car" to cure understeer is not necessarily true.

And what do you mean by "carrying more weight transfer"?

 

[sheizasosay]

What do you mean by this?

I was referring to the brembo 55d springs you have for the rear....they have the same rate as stock.... I was saying you could put the brembo rear springs on by themselves if you wanted to and have a nice stance with the rear dropping a tad bit. You could also do what you were talking about earlier with springs... I'm just saying you have options and you can tune with swaybars for the setup you go with regardless of your spring options.

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Not quite. Oversteer is when the rear of the car loses grip before the front does. "Traction" is only part of the issue. And saying you "work on the front of the car" to cure understeer is not necessarily true.

And what do you mean by "carrying more weight transfer"?

I said traction, I meant grip. We are saying the same thing.

If oversteer was the issue you wouldn't take grip away from the front end, would you? No, you would try to add grip to the rear.....or at least I would. I prefer to work on the end of the car that is causing problems.

In a corner load transfers from the inside to the outside. A given amount of load will transfer, what we control with anti roll or sway bars is how much load is transferred at the front and how much is transferred at the rear. So lets pretend our car is perfectly balanced. We will transfer 1000 pounds (for example) from the inside to the outside while cornering. 500 at the front and 500 at the rear. If we change the balance from theoretical perfect by increasing the rate on the rear ARB, the outside rear will see more load then the outside front.

So by adding roll rate with the ARB to the rear we take some of the load transfer off the outside front and transfer it the outside rear. That's what I meant by carrying more weight transfer. If we transfer more load to the rear tire than the front tire and they are both the same size and have the same contact patch, the rear tire will give up first. If one end gives up before the other then we go slower, because we left grip on the table in the front and prematurely overloaded the rears.

I purposely left spring rate out of the above, but they can be used to control roll rate as well, usually more effectively.

 

[Department Of Boost]

I think you all are making a mountain out of a molehill.

You know what I'm doing to my FR-S that's on KW Coil-overs for the winter? I put Blizzaks on it. Done.

I don't get the issue here, maybe I'm missing something.

I'm with Sam on this one. You're not trying to build a containment system for anti-matter here. Just put winter tires on the car and drive it.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Not quite. Oversteer is when the rear of the car loses grip before the front does. "Traction" is only part of the issue. And saying you "work on the front of the car" to cure understeer is not necessarily true.

And what do you mean by "carrying more weight transfer"?

I said traction, I meant grip. We are saying the same thing.

If oversteer was the issue you wouldn't take grip away from the front end, would you? No, you would try to add grip to the rear.....or at least I would. I prefer to work on the end of the car that is causing problems.

In a corner load transfers from the inside to the outside. A given amount of load will transfer, what we control with anti roll or sway bars is how much load is transferred at the front and how much is transferred at the rear. So lets pretend our car is perfectly balanced. We will transfer 1000 pounds (for example) from the inside to the outside while cornering. 500 at the front and 500 at the rear. If we change the balance from theoretical perfect by increasing the rate on the rear ARB, the outside rear will see more load then the outside front.

So by adding roll rate with the ARB to the rear we take some of the load transfer off the outside front and transfer it the outside rear. That's what I meant by carrying more weight transfer. If we transfer more load to the rear tire than the front tire and they are both the same size and have the same contact patch, the rear tire will give up first. If one end gives up before the other then we go slower, because we left grip on the table in the front and prematurely overloaded the rears.

I purposely left spring rate out of the above, but they can be used to control roll rate as well, usually more effectively.

You can also tune out under/over steer by adding traction (bigger/stickier tires).

Car oversteers? Bigger rear tires.

Car understeers? Bigger front tires.

Used in conjunction with spring rate and roll bar tuning I don't see why a car can't be balanced out while adding overall traction at the same time. This is of course unless you are running a class that has a limit on tires/size.

For example my 2007 oversteers all over the place. It has a LOT of power though. First step toward balancing car 315's on the rear, 275's on the front. Next step play with the bars and springs.

 

[sheizasosay]

You can also tune out under/over steer by adding traction (bigger/stickier tires).

Car oversteers? Bigger rear tires.

Car understeers? Bigger front tires.

Used in conjunction with spring rate and roll bar tuning I don't see why a car can't be balanced out while adding overall traction at the same time. This is of course unless you are running a class that has a limit on tires/size.

For example my 2007 oversteers all over the place. It has a LOT of power though. First step toward balancing car 315's on the rear, 275's on the front. Next step play with the bars and springs.

Your tuning all wrong man. You gotta put steering wheel limiters on your car at the point your car starts to loose traction in a turn. Like "steering stops". THAT'S how you get a "neutral-steering" car.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[dontlifttoshift]

Actually, Bruce Wayne and Alfred solved the problem long ago. They found that by launching a grappling hook out of the car and latching onto a stop sign while cornering that they could maintain a higher level of speed. They tested it with their data logger and saw nearly 2g laterally using this method......and that was on street tires! Robin said it wouldn't work but the testing proved him wrong.

Not much help to the OP, though. I don't think it snows in Gotham.

 

[fun4me]

Do the P springs ride noticably harsher that Roush and BMR?

This car is 99% street, the only reason I want to lower it it all is because it will look goofy on 26" tires(summer), if I dont.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Do the P springs ride noticably harsher that Roush and BMR?

This car is 99% street, the only reason I want to lower it it all is because it will look goofy on 26" tires(summer), if I dont.

All of those springs have pretty soft rates compared to how high you can go and still get a good ride (about half). Any harshness you get will be because of the dampers, or how the dampers "team up" with the springs. There is no reason the springs by themselves will make for a harsh ride.

 

[fun4me]

All of those springs have pretty soft rates compared to how high you can go and still get a good ride (about half). Any harshness you get will be because of the dampers, or how the dampers "team up" with the springs. There is no reason the springs by themselves will make for a harsh ride.

Will the P springs pair up well w/ yellows?
What holes on the Strano sways should I start w/ for a winter setup(19x9 wheels w/winter tires) the rear bar is 25mm.

Thanks again

 

[frank s]

I'm beginning to believe that fun4me's "fun" is in watching a crew of dedicated modifiers bounce off each other. S/he's had several good answers to the underlying question*, and always tries it again with slightly different tilts of the head and tones of voice.

* "Can you please reassure me that I haven't wasted money by purchasing certain parts before researching their efficacy for my conditions? Please?"

It was amusing for the first page or so. No more.

 

[fun4me]

Money on mods is never wasted. I appreciate everyones time and opinions.
Once I get some experience, I'll gladly pass it along. Thank you for your observation.

BTW My "fun" is my car.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Will the P springs pair up well w/ yellows?

I don't know. I have never tried that combo.

What holes on the Strano sways should I start w/ for a winter setup(19x9 wheels w/winter tires) the rear bar is 25mm.

I think someone has already suggested how to tune bars. I will suggest it again. Start on the softest setting and go from there.

The second answer to this is you will not have enough traction in the winter either because of snow/rain/cold roads to go fast enough to even begin to get into the bars. It doesn't matter how you set it up.

 

[Napoleon85]

Will the P springs pair up well w/ yellows?
What holes on the Strano sways should I start w/ for a winter setup(19x9 wheels w/winter tires) the rear bar is 25mm.

Thanks again

Eibachs work well with yellows from what I've heard. I'm pretty happy with the pro kit springs on my yellows, but I haven't been to the track yet.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Eibachs work well with yellows from what I've heard. I'm pretty happy with the pro kit springs on my yellows, but I haven't been to the track yet.

Those Eibach Pro kit springs (or Ford "K" springs, same thing) don't work well with anything.

 

[fun4me]

Thanks. The Michelin Alpin3 have a surprising amount of traction on dry, cold roads.
Full Soft are the last holes out? Should I start w/ the yellows on full soft all around?

 

[Department Of Boost]

Thanks. The Michelin Alpin3 have a surprising amount of traction on dry, cold roads.
Full Soft are the last holes out? Should I start w/ the yellows on full soft all around?

Yes and yes.

 

[fun4me]

Your the man. Thanks for giving me straight answers. Someone mentioned, that due to the stiffness of the rear 25 mm bar, i should start w/ the front bar on medium. What do you think? When I go w/ the stiffer P spring in the rear w/ the R comp(ish) tires, what adjustment to the sways and dampers should I start with, if any?