IS the Coyote engine rebuildable or does the block need to be replaced?

Discussion in '2011+ Mustang GT 5.0L Tech' started by Robert302, May 4, 2021.

  1. Robert302

    Robert302 Junior Member

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    My question is can you rebuild a coyote engine, by rebuild I mean bore out and put in new pistons on say a high mileage one and with that being the case is it worth it over buying a crate engine? I am new to the coyote world but have built old school V8s and an LS 6.0. I am use to the cast iorn blocks that can be over bored. I am not looking for displacement just want to be able to bore it out to clean it up. I really don't know if they even wear enough to need it but I have the kind of luck that if I buy a good used engine and open it up it will need to be rebuilt, it happened with my 6.0 that was running and only had 78K miles on it, the bearings were copper colored and I had to bore out the cylinders. When I want a performance engine I have always built them because for the same money as a crate I can have a forged rotating assembly with just my time and I like engines so that isn't a big deal. I don't see much on building coyotes I don't know if it's because everyone has deep enough pockets that 10K engines are no big deal and they pay a shop to install them or is it that the engine is a 1 time use and you need a new block to start over. What I want is a coyote with forged rods and pistons, I have a roush blower on my car now and I know guys get away with more but I like insurance that I can beat on it and it won't blow apart. I would also do oil pump gears at a minimum if I ever have the engine out. I currently have 100K on my coyote and am itching to add more power but I like to know it will for sure hold it. I would like to build for say 800whp and make around 600 to 650whp. I enjoy building engines but I see coyotes are expensive even with high mileage, I have found that a new crate engine upgraded to gen 2 components for $7200 is a much better deal than a $4000 100K coyote. I can't see spending that much on an engine then building it and then maybe finding it has too much taper and needs to be bored but can't. Any experience with this would help, I would hate to buy a 10K alluminator engine but if I need to I will.
     
  2. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Im running a junkyard pull. Has over 100k. Im running it till something breaks. I will probably die before the coyote will break.
    Im not against building engines, but it has been my experience building costs more and takes much longer vs buying a running engine.
    My car does several hundred, hopefully over 1000 HPDE track miles per year.
     
  3. OX1

    OX1 forum member

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  4. Robert302

    Robert302 Junior Member

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    I understand that, when I started even 20 years ago with small block chevys any junk yard engine needed to be rebuilt and if you wanted to make any kind of power you pretty much had to throw away everything except for the block. It is a different world now a 100K engine even being considered viable for putting in a car is great and to throw power at it even better. What I want is something I can beat on time and again and not have it break. I have had to build engines in the past because you could pretty much build them for about half price for the power output. Now it seems with the coyotes I could buy a crate engine for the same cost as building one. I look at the fully forged short blocks for about 6K but when you include the cost of heads, gaskets, timing components I could just buy an aluminator. I have 100K on my car I bought it new and put the roush phase 1 blower on it with roush tune at 52K. I want to add more power but I don't want to chance it, I know people blow them up all the time usually the oil pump gears go. I'm going to keep the car a long time and I want to be able to beat on it and beat on it.
     
  5. Robert302

    Robert302 Junior Member

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    That's what I've seen but I don't even know if that is enough, I am use to the old days were it was 30 thousandths over bore was standard just to ensure the taper was gone. If I have to put sleeves in it I might as well just buy a crate engine because the costs really add up at that time. I like building engines but I don't want to spend the same money as a crate engine that has a warranty with it.
     
  6. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    I guess it is possible with the oils available today to have 100,000 on a short block with very little wear. Even in the 1970s, I had a 440 short block with no wear at 60,000 miles but the heads were trash. Burn valves, lose valves, no oil seals and so on.
     
  7. SilBult

    SilBult Junior Member

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    Like others here I have some experience with rebuilding older pushrod engines. You didn't say what generation coyote you're working with, but I'll assume it's a 1st. gem [ '11-'14 ]. If it's '11-'12 it should have 12 mm head bolts, '13 & later should have 11mm bolts. Since you plan to run boost I would prefer 12mm bolts, but later blocks can be converted to 12's and lots of boosted engines are running with 11's. 1st. gen engines have the weakest connecting rods of all the coyotes so going with real forged rods [ not powered metal factory rods of any generation ] and forged pistons is a good idea IMO. So are the billet oil pump gears and crank gears. Simply getting a new bare block may be a good way to go since there won't be any need to overbore the factory sleeves which aren't all that thick or strong to begin with. You might want to look at a gen 3 block with sprayed in liners. For heads you can either have your gen 1's rebuilt with gen 2 size valves and a little port work or go with gen 2 heads. If you do this make sure that your new pistons have valve reliefs to accommodate the bigger gen 2 valves. Assuming that you plan to use your '11-'14 PCM to run things you will need to use gen 1 timing chains, vct's and camshafts designed for gen 1 engines. Good luck.
     
  8. race4food

    race4food forum member

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    I went .010 over to clean up the cylinders and Ford manual states .020 max. Set your budget then shop, shop, shop around.
     
  9. tjm73

    tjm73 of Omicron Persei 8 S197 Team Member

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    Gen 3 blocks have the spray bore liners. I've not seen any guidance on what to do with those. I imagine putting liners in them will be the path to rebuild. Gen 1 and 2 still have the iron liners that can be bored.
     
  10. Juice

    Juice forum member

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    Is that anything like Nikasil on 2 strokes?
     
  11. tjm73

    tjm73 of Omicron Persei 8 S197 Team Member

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  12. OX1

    OX1 forum member

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    Define "old days". This is my stock original 5.0 HO shortblock (I bought Capri new in 1987). 89K, many miles of abuse from 150 HP Nitrous and 10-12 PSI turbo kit (not at the same time). Still had crosshatching when I pulled heads for TW 170's about 3 years ago.

    No way that needs .030 bore (if it needed rebuild). So not sure why you are so sure a modern block really needs 30 over just for cleanup. How much worse could it be than an 86, 5.0, assuming it was well cared for (even if beat on, like mine).

    [​IMG]
     
    Bullitt2954 likes this.
  13. tjm73

    tjm73 of Omicron Persei 8 S197 Team Member

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    Guys have pulled 125, 150K 5.0's out of Explorers that still have crosshatch and don't burn a drop of oil. Good machining makes ALL the difference. And factory machining has come a looooong ways since the 80's.
     
    OX1 likes this.
  14. Robert302

    Robert302 Junior Member

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    I would say old days were late 90s early 2000s, pulling a 70s core out of a junk yard, the late 80s EFI stuff was still running I live in California so cars didn't rust to the ground so if it ran it stayed on the road. I really don't know if it takes a .030 overbore that's just what was standard and I do realize standards change which is why I'm asking instead of just saying for sure no. I am also starting to lean into if I do rebuild to use my existing one as the core since I bought the car new and I ran synthetic oil from early on.
     
  15. OX1

    OX1 forum member

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    Well, then it cost you nothing but time to pull your own engine, mic it up, and see if a very minimal bore cleanup is all that is needed. People used to go 30 over cause they could and you can get another 8 cubes on say a 400 CI size engine. But I don't think most HAD to go 30 back then.
     
  16. tjm73

    tjm73 of Omicron Persei 8 S197 Team Member

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    You can currently buy a stone stock, off the assembly line, Gen3 5.0, fully machined engine block for about a grand from FRPP. As long as they remain in production, this will probably remain an option. Service replacements from your dealer may be less. May be more. Worth checking if you need/want one.
     
  17. eighty6gt

    eighty6gt forum member

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    Hard to understand the first post. I think there's a 100,000 mile coyote in a car and the owner is thinking of adding power and they think they need forged pistons and rods. They don't. Set the car at 600-650 rwhp and leave it alone, or sack up and spend $15,000+ converting to a good engine (one from a GT500.)
    Get the tune straight! I hope you're running stock cats. Enjoy the car.

    Your 6.0 experience isn't typical. I bet if you'd installed that engine it would have ran and you'd never have known the difference.

    Edit: the car is a 2013. You will do 100,000 miles with that engine and 600 at the wheels. Do not touch the oil pump. If you beat on it, it will blow up. If you beat on a built 5.0, it will blow up faster.
     
  18. OX1

    OX1 forum member

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    Great. Now I have to buy yet another spare block, because I can (should) LOL!!! :)
     
  19. OX1

    OX1 forum member

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    Kind of agree with this a bit. What happens if you slap it together and it eventually blows. But it might not. I only have 10K orig miles, but trapping 130. Not even oil pump gears swapped out (but I am auto and have rev limiter set 500 RPM higher than shift points).
     
  20. LarryJM

    LarryJM forum member

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    Arc spray bore has been around since rebuilding airplane engines in the 1930's. I watched a teardown of both a LS engine and a Coyote. The Coyote has twice the parts. Interesting that one rod in the Coyote was completely gone and it did not go through the block but sure made a mess of it.
     
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