NASA Classing thoughts

NDSP

forum member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Posts
194
Reaction score
0
Location
Frisco,TX
So, I'm in the process of going through the rules for NASA Time Trial classes and was trying to figure out the best place for me to land with my current mods and my planned future mods. Keeping in mind I'm going to be racing my Daily Driver and trying to also stay legal for SCCA STU autocross. So I realize I'm trying to hang the moon here, I'm pretty competitive but I'm also trying to be a realist. I don't like being dead last, but I don't expect, given my parameters, first place either.

Here are my current mods:

Bilstein Struts and Shocks
Ford K-springs
whiteline panhard bar, front sway, and rear sway

My future mods are going to be based on what the TT rules give me. My understanding of the NASA TT rules are the my 06 Mustang GT starts out in TTD**. You move up classes based on the level of modification of your car, with each modification being worth a given number of points. 20 to 39 points moves you up one class, 40 to 59 up two classes and so on. The 06 Mustang starts out with a 14 point "penalty" ( what the ** stands for ). So my current mods account for these points:

06 GT Mustang +14 pts
Struts and Shocks +3
K Spring +2
Panhard bar +2
Sways bars +2
________________
Current total 23 pts

So my current mods already put me up in TTC but I have 16 more pts to play with and remain in TTC. So this is what I'm thinking

RS-3 285/35/18 tires +12 pts
Brembo Front brakes +2 pts
Cold Air +1 pts
_____________________
New mods +15 pts

Total 38pts keeps me in TTC and legal for STU and very streetable. Thoughts? Mods I should consider instead of what I've listed for better bang for the buck?

Mods I'm going to do that don't cost pts. Racing seats, harness bar and harness.

Thanks,

James
 

Roadracer350

forum member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Posts
1,215
Reaction score
0
Location
Tulsa OK
I'm just trying to figure out how to get my TT license without having to spend a year doing track days and ride alongs
 

jayel579

forum member
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Posts
401
Reaction score
0
Location
North Jersey
Sounds good to me man. It is all about having fun so if you aren't big on trying to be overly competitive, do what you want and drive it in whatever class you end up in. In the end, you are having fun driving you car with a bunch of other track-tards just like yourself.
 

NDSP

forum member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Posts
194
Reaction score
0
Location
Frisco,TX
I'm just trying to figure out how to get my TT license without having to spend a year doing track days and ride alongs

That is a good question. I've been pondering that myself. I was thinking that 4 or 5 track days should get it done, as far as getting my provisional TT license. I've also heard that you kind of got to ask to be moved up and along. Providing that your on track driving isn't too lacking and safe they will be willing to work with you on moving up the HPDE levels. Or go to one big driving school and come out with a provisional. Any insight from the instructors among us as to how long/many HPDE is normal given a "standard" student would be appreciated.
 

Philostang

Chrome Hater
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Posts
429
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
I think SGDave should really chime in on this one for a detailed response, but I'm going to give you the cheesy-but-true answer.

There doesn't seem to be a "normal" or "standard" student. We've got folks all over the board in terms of skills, interests, and motivation. I've seen guys run in HPDE4 for years just because they like the driving and have no interest in TT. I've seen a guy in HPDE1 for two years just because he wanted the guaranteed instruction.

Here's the important one: I've seen guys in HPDE3 and 4 for over a year who think they want to jump to TT only to fail their check-off ride with an added request that they jump in a car for a shotgun ride in a TT session. Some have come off track knowing they are not ready and settle back into developing their skills. I've also seen this with folks who've run for years with other non-sanctioning organizations that just go for fun. They're fast in those organizations only to learn that the pool was pretty small and their diving into some deeper waters.

All this to say, you really just need to see how it plays out. I'm sure it's possible that the NASA regions vary a bit in terms of how quickly they're willing to check folks off, but I wouldn't think the variance is wide. So again, see how it goes.

As for your mods/points projection, one thing to keep in mind is that you can get more bang-for-the-point (not nec. buck) by improving the quality of what you're paying for in points. Shock points are shock points (provided you're not comparing external reservoir options) regardless if they're Monroe Sensa-tracs or AST 4150s, same for springs. Those K-springs are nice, but when pushed the way you'll do in TT, I don't think they're going to get the job done. Look at the tires the same way. You've got points to play with, so upgrading your tires is going to yield the biggest bang for the points-buck. Figuring out how to run race-rubber may be the biggest obstacle (extra set of wheels, transportation to/from event, consumables expense, etc.).

Good luck and have fun!

Best,
-j
 

csamsh

forum member
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Posts
1,598
Reaction score
2
Location
OKC
... an added request that they jump in a car for a shotgun ride in a TT session...

I rode along in a TT warmup session once with a rather good TT driver here in TX, and I realized I do have a looong way to go. I'll be in no hurry once I start doing NASA things. Not that I can afford to be anyway....the only HPDE1/2 NASA event within a reasonable distance from me is Eagle's Canyon once a year :/
 

Roadracer350

forum member
Joined
Sep 11, 2011
Posts
1,215
Reaction score
0
Location
Tulsa OK
Hold on a tic... You in OKC right? Don't forget Hallett. Also MSR Cression, MSR Houston and especially TWS! TWS is only 6hrs from tulsa. Hell come to Hallett!
 

2013MustangGT

Budget Boss
Joined
Nov 15, 2012
Posts
227
Reaction score
0
Location
Van Alstyne, TX
I know Hallett is limited HPDE. I don't know if that means limited spaces or limited to DE 3 and 4. If someone could chime in on that, it would be appreciated. This year I was planning on doing MSR Cresson and ECR. However, with a couple recent events at the track with my car I plan on getting a trailer, so I may do more events this year. I would love to go to Barber Motorsports in AL.

The thing I have heard from instructors is that HPDE 1 and 2 tend to want instructions. Then drivers get to DE 3 and 4 and think they know it all. After a few years when their driving hasn't improved much is when they start asking for some ride alongs to see what they can improve on. For me I plan on doing my dues before I get to TT. I have seen those guys at the track and I cannot keep up with them at this time.
 

csamsh

forum member
Joined
Apr 9, 2012
Posts
1,598
Reaction score
2
Location
OKC
Yeah forgot about cresson...as mentioned though, hallett only does 3/4.
 

2008 V6

forum member
Joined
Mar 18, 2012
Posts
335
Reaction score
1
For starters – You don’t have many points to play with before being bumped into much faster groups.
I started with a 2008 V6 (TTF**) for my wife who is stile too intimidated to compete. Solid (TTC) now with the possibility of being bumped to (TTB). I would have adjusted HP to suit – this was 1.5 – 2 years ago. She has done some ride alongs with average drivers and then above average - scared her - She has not been in a car with a capable driver yet and won’t ride with me (Average driver). Most NASA events have average & above average drivers – Very little moneyto be had & mostly low to medium budget cars – Stepping stone to competitive racing.

I would suggest -
#1 Tires - Tires - Tires
#2 Much higher spring rates & GOOD shocks to control them
#3 Better bushings all around – Don’t know point penalty
#4 fuel surge tank
You have to play with points to see where you need to be.

+++ Good Racing Seat & 5 Point Harness so you can concentrate on driving
+++ Roll Protection for piece of mind
AERO dynamics – But big points hit
Lightest car as possible within spec - Adjust HP accordingly
++++++++++++++++ Most important – Seat Time –
When you get to TTA -1-2-3 Lots of AERO because you have the HP.
 

jsbumed

Junior Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2011
Posts
6
Reaction score
0
Your math is right on all the points. You could also consider running 275 tires to free up a couple more points. You will always be at a slight disadvantage in trying to stay legal for STU. While I am not familiar with that rule set, when you build for one rule set, it is difficult to maximize your car's potential in a different rule set. One person already mentioned advice on tires. For TT, you generally want to run the stickiest tire that will let you stay in your desired class. For one of my cars, I had to sacrifice suspension mods to run stickier rubber since that would give me more of an advantage. The other piece of advice I can give you is to get the car as close to your legal weight as possible. Taking advantage of the no-points modification mods is always a good step as well. Another thing to look at is the possibility of a dyno reclass. Not all cars come out ahead that way, but some do and it never hurts to ask for one and see what the numbers are.

As far as how long it takes to TT, Philostang already mentioned that there is no such thing as a standard student. Some people pick up the required skills quicker than others. I will say it is generally going to take more than 5 or 6 days though. It isn't impossible to move up that fast, but it is uncommon. As a director, if someone is coming from outside of NASA and they only have that amount of track experience, I won't even consider them for a provisional without a check-off ride. Same applies if their only experience is a driving school. I know several people (SGDave, Philostang, myself) that spent at least an entire season in HPDE3/4 before finally taking the plunge into competition.

One last thing to note, you are doing all your planning based off the 2013 rules. The rules for the next season usually come out sometime in December so you will want to check to make sure their are no changes that affect you. I don't anticipate anything major that would affect your car, but I have been surprised before.
 

ddavidv

forum member
Joined
Jun 30, 2012
Posts
52
Reaction score
1
Location
Elizabethtown, PA
Don't be in a hurry to go right to solo or TT. Fastest way to go faster is to learn to drive, not mod the car. Each instructor will bring something new to the table.

I just began instructing, and my two main criteria to consider moving someone forward is 1) Situational awareness and 2) Car control at the limit. I want people knowing where everyone else is on the track around them, which is very important when you don't have someone in the right seat looking out for you. Some of the closing speeds of various cars can be pretty terrifying. The other thing is I need to feel confident that the person knows how to handle their car, even when things go wrong. Driving smoothly aids greatly in this. Okay, so maybe that's three things. :makeadeal:

I've been blessed with mostly good students so far, and one who was a superstar only the second time on track. Everyone is different. If you have a lot of verifiable experience from outside NASA, that's a different thing and the Chief Instructor can help you out.
 

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
28
Philostang and JSbumed have already brought up good points... A few things to think about if you're making a serious bid at getting into TT with the intention of actually doing well, though.

1) IT'S NOT A RACE!!! Yes, it is "legal" to go through the corners door-to-door in TT, however everybody knows that if you do, BOTH cars are going to be slower as a result, and thus have "blown laps." If you make a habit of driving that way in TT, you WILL wind up getting a bit of a talking to from a variety of people. There are many that take the competition end VERY seriously, and if you screw with them (on track), it will wind up becoming an issue.

2) If you've got some track experience, think about what the real drive is behind TT. Frequently, people go out for three laps in a session. Warm-up, a hot lap, and then a cool-down and off. If you think it's going to give you a ton of "no rules" track-time, think again.

3) If you've only got a little bit of track experience, realize that the guys in TT are F-A-S-T! Frequently, the TT crew sets faster lap times than the equivalent race group does. Different mentality, shared skill set, different approach to "the game." If you are prone to making more than one or two tiny errors on a given lap, and can't regularly nail at least two or three solid laps per session, then you're not ready to dive into the deep end. At a minimum, you should completely understand the concepts of momentum-style driving (even in a Viper) and tire slip-angle, and how to use them to your advantage. Know the difference between street rubber, and R-compound or slicks, and know how to drive them to get the most grip out of them. You will also need to be completely comfortable in an open-passing environment, and not even have to think about trail-braking, heel-toe downshifts, offline cornering (at traction limit), traffic pacing, etc. If those aren't second-nature, then you're not ready.

4) The level of competition can sometimes be FIERCE!!!! In 2010, I lost a season championship by 0.001 seconds... It doesn't get much closer than that.

All of the above said, as a general rule, the TT drivers are absolutely outstanding in terms of mental focus and car-control skills. There is also an assumption that if you're out in that group, you can hang; if you can't then it potentially becomes a safety issue. I don't want to make it sound "elitist" but honestly, not everybody is cut out for TT. From a NASA perspective, there's no difference in the "rules of engagement" between HPDE-4 and Time Trial, other than TT is considered a competition group, and HPDE-4 is not. If all you're looking for is the open-passing environment, and couldn't even consider coming in early from your session (I want the track time!!), then my advice is to consider staying in HPDE-4. If, on the other hand you crave the competitive environment, but don't want to cage your car and go racing, then TT may well be the perfect environment for you.

Philostang and I are both NASA instructors, and JSBumed is both an instructor and a Time Trial Director, so we all speak from a fairly similar viewpoint. The actual mechanics of getting into TT are pretty simple, really. Present yourself to the regional TT director, with a filled-out Time Trial Provisional License application, and then follow their direction on how to proceed from there. If they don't know you, there's a good chance that they'll toss an instructor in with you for a session as a check-ride. Different regions may have different specific things they'll look for in the check-ride, or different drills and tests they'll run, but be prepared to do a lot of things in a very short period of time that will stress you in a very high-speed environment. We'll be looking for general level of comfort, basic driving skill level, familiarity with and appropriate use of advanced skills, ABSOLUTE situational awareness, and appropriate pace. We could care less how fast (or slow) you are, as long as you can wheel the car safely. Over-drive it, spin it, go off, etc., and the check-ride is done, and not with a happy result. Assuming all goes well, at the end of the weekend, the director will counter-sign your provisional application, then you fax/email it to National, and shortly thereafter you'll get your hard-card license in the mail. Done. That license is portable to all NASA regions throughout the US.

Now, as for how long it takes the "average" student to get to the skill level necessary to safely compete in TT? The hard, numerical answer is: "It depends." One of the biggest things about wanting to hang out in the HPDE ranks is experiential learning. Is it possible to be a "natural," blow through the ranks in a few weekends and then get a TT license? Absolutely. It will actually be no problem, either, until you're out in the TT group when the heavens open, and you suddenly discover that you have NO idea what a "rain line" is used for, how to find it, or how to drive it. OR you're out there blowing through a corner at 1.4G and 95MPH, and when you pick your head up at corner-exit, you discover a car STOPPED right in front of you. (Hint: your head should have been up before turn-in, not at exit!) You might be the fastest thing on the planet after Cole Trickle, but if you have no idea what to do when they're waving a red flag at you, things could get ugly in a hurry.

I guess what I'm trying to say (in my normal rambling, long-winded manner) is that taking the jump into a competition group (TT, W2W, Hill Climb, whatever) isn't one to be taken lightly. Make sure you're ready for it, read up on it, study it, get to know the players, learn the procedurals and concepts, and you'll not only go further faster, but you'll have more fun doing it.

Oh, and for spending points in TT: Do as much of the "free mods" list as you reasonably can. Get your car right down to minimum weight (Hint: The first five lbs under min weight are free, at least through 2013). Spend as many points as you can on sticky rubber. Spend as much of the remainder as you can on WIDER sticky rubber. Use whatever you have left over on a CAI and tune, then dampers and springs, and if you have any points left over after that, either get stickier or wider rubber, THEN go for weight reduction. In the TTB-TTF classes, aero is a fools game, the points just cost too much for the benefits. In the TT# classes (TT1, TT2, TT3) aero isn't just a good idea, it's essentially mandatory if you want to run up front.

Like everything with TT, MAXIMIZE your points spent. If you're going to do a wing, don't do a GT500 lip spoiler, go to APR, Good Aero, G-Stream, etc and get a REAL wing that actually does something. Yes, the G-Stream wing is $1300, PLUS the cost of the mounts, but in TT terms, it "costs" the same (points) as simply deleting the factory wing. If you do dampers, look at Sachs, AST, Penske, not at Koni yellows or D-Specs. Again, 3x the price, same points cost, and arguably 2x the "value."

Also, as was brought up before, if you want to be competitive, you have GOT to maximize your setup right to the limit of the rules. If you build around TTB, though, I bet you'll suck in SCCA STU. And vice-versa. It's kind of like building a combo street/race car: it will do neither well.

ddavidv: Welcome to the ranks of the clinically insane! Who else would climb into the right seat of a car driven by a complete stranger, and yell at them to "go faster!" ;-) I've been instructing for a few years now, and I STILL have to say the most memorable moments in any given weekend are from the right seat. That "Oh!" you hear over the intercom when they "nail" a perfect corner is all the payoff we need. Well, that and that delicious free NASA water!
 

fordracing

12.84@108 1.89 60' N/A
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Posts
426
Reaction score
0
Location
Eden, NY
Make sure you're ready for it, read up on it, study it, get to know the players, learn the procedurals and concepts, and you'll not only go further faster, but you'll have more fun doing it.

Dave:
Not to Highjack this thread but do you have any recommendations for said reading/study?
 

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
28
Dave:
Not to Highjack this thread but do you have any recommendations for said reading/study?

This will sound sarcastic, but it's not... NASA Forums and the TT rulebook are your best resources. Then, meet your TT director, and introduce yourself to the drivers in your class. Oh, and the instructors, too!
 

fordracing

12.84@108 1.89 60' N/A
Joined
Jun 29, 2007
Posts
426
Reaction score
0
Location
Eden, NY
This will sound sarcastic, but it's not... NASA Forums and the TT rulebook are your best resources. Then, meet your TT director, and introduce yourself to the drivers in your class. Oh, and the instructors, too!

Thank you Sir, I've been wanting to try this for years, maybe this spring I will finally do it.
 

c_reber

Junior Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2012
Posts
46
Reaction score
0
Location
Vegas
Is NASA TT similar to a "time attack" event? Multiple cars on track, but all going for a "best lap"? NOT door-door racing?
 

SoundGuyDave

This Space For Rent
Joined
Apr 9, 2007
Posts
1,978
Reaction score
28
Is NASA TT similar to a "time attack" event? Multiple cars on track, but all going for a "best lap"? NOT door-door racing?

Exactly. Your best single lap time of the day is what you compete in-class with. Position means nothing.
 

Philostang

Chrome Hater
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Posts
429
Reaction score
2
Location
Chicago
Exactly. Your best single lap time of the day is what you compete in-class with. Position means nothing.

Just to emphasize something here - it is your best time of the day that counts. For the very competition-driven folks, that means if the weather is going to be adversely different earlier/later in the day, once fast times are posted there's little reason to go out on track again. You may as well pack it in. This isn't the mindset of the "get the most track time" guy.

Of course, folks in TT will still go out in rain, over-heated track, etc., but you do see the grid start to thin out substantially. Those on grid may be going for a test-and-tune, try out different lines, and so forth, just like the HPDE guys. But when you're out with them in an actual timed session, folks have got their game face on as in any other competition event. There's a specific point and focus that's not found in other run groups and you can feel that out on track.

I guess I'm saying that when you're starting out, you probably should be of the "get the most track time" mindset. [edit: You should be first of the "get the most instruction" mindset, then "most track time."] That's going to serve you best. The kind of emphasis that "lap times" and the rest of the competition-elements brought into the experience of TT is likely just a distraction to your development as a driver.

I think NASA has it right when they place the competition events at the end of an extended ladder system. Qualifying folks for this or that group quickly and jumping into a competition environment isn't the best route for most folks. When I look at how some of those lemons-type events run, geting out on track with just a qualifying weekend, it's a bit scary. Of course, in those cases the cars are both caged and slow. Most folks doing TT are not caging their cars...

Best,
-j
 

NDSP

forum member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Posts
194
Reaction score
0
Location
Frisco,TX
Thank you guys for your response. I really appreciate the input.

While I do enjoy the track time, I'm pretty competitive and do want to know how I'm stacking up against the other guy. Which is why I'm looking at TT.

As far as remaining STU legal, since SCCA isn't exactly Mustang friendly, I'll build to the NASA rule book and run where ever that lands me in SCCA if it comes to that.

I do have a question on suspension. I'm under the impression that coil overs would cost me ( point wise ) more than struts/shocks and springs. Is that incorrect? I'm not totally up on the vernacular, so that area was confusing me a little. If I can run AST 4150's( Non reservoir coil overs or better non reservoir coil overs) at the same point cost as my Bilsteins and K's then I will definitely do that.

As far as tires go, I'm thinking I should still run street tires ( that talk to me ) instead of R compound or slicks. I also don't think I can afford the point cost. Though I'm going to compile a couple of "builds" that keep me in the TTC class that emphasis tires, dampeners and see what I can get and stay within that class.

I'll definitely try to do All the free mods. I'm thinking a bar with removable harness bar ( because I have to be able to fit my Tuba back there on rehearsal nights, lol ).

Am I correct in my interpretation of the rules that tunes are free as long as I don't go foul of the hp/weight number?

Thanks,

James
 
Back
Top