Rear end clunking

Pony DNA

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http://www.hotpart.com/shop/index.php?l=product_detail&p=45

Not true, the poly ball is used in certain LCAs. I assembled the bushings when I installed the LCAs, there's a ball alright.

I sincerly hope 2-3 months of use didn't destroy the bushings already.


Hi Vapor,

Unfortunately J&M poly ball bushings are just a B.S. marketing gimmick used to deceive the mechanically unsophisticated (hey, no slight intended Vapor). I just had to blast these pieces of junk when they first came out and I got to do it on their own website!

Hot Parts/J&M used to have a comment section for each of their parts. One day I disassembled the polyball bushings and proved that they were no better and possibly worse than an ordinary unpatent pending two-piece poly bushing with steel sleeve. Several folks commented agreeing with me that mechanically the polyball bushings were simple marketing B.S.. Some folks who bought these LCA's said they did not see any difference between polyball bushings and standard bushings. Others who bought and installed LCA's with polyball bushings claimed that the HP/J&M polyball bushings were "just better" like HP/J&M claimed because they were applying for a patent.

So then I explained that anybody can make a patent claim and apply for a patent for pocket change and in the mean time claim they have a patent pending. This is classic snake oil smoke and mirror B.S. Do you know how long it takes for a patent to be reviewed and processed? Several years at least and all during this period the patent applicants are allowed to continue to claim that their part has some sort of magic properties because it has a patent pending even though the so called improvements are as bogus as Bill Clinton's "I did not have sex with that woman" comment. By the time all the smoke from the B.S. clears there is no more market for the bogus magic item and nobody cares and more that the patent office denied the application. Of course nobody tells you what class of patent they applied for or exactly what is being applied for because it could be that the patent is for the unique use of lubricant on the steel bushing sleeve. It is a major joke (which is not so funny IMO) on the car part buying American public. O.K. enough ranting.

Then it got deep, I posted that there has been a much stronger metal near zero bind and far superior isolated rod end available for many, many years from Currie called "Johnny Joints." I suggested they should just buy these off the shelf and use them in their control arm products. At this point HP/J&M just tried to blow me off in the comment area by saying they were some how "just better" which obviously they are not if you read my comments or have any mechanical insight at all or engineering experience. Then HP/J&M tried to disprove my design and engineering comments which again they could not. Then J&M just ignored my comments by locking the thread preventing any more posts and then they quietly removed the ability for people to comment on their parts on their site all together. LOL!

But the upside is that HP/J&M took my comments to heart and now offer LCA's and UCA's using Currie's Johnny Joints! These are now IMO some of the better designed non-adjustable LCA's and adjustable UCA's. The quality of fabrication I cannot vouch for as they likely still do not use top of the line materials or fabrication methods and you cannot see what the welds look like due to the heavy layer of powder coating used. But at least they are on the right track!

If you feel you have to have J&M LCA's and want them to actually do what they claim you need to buy their so called Street/Race Extreme Joint version LCA's which are not adjustable. But if you get the J&M Street/Race Extreme Joint version of their UCA you get an adjustable piece. I would guess that J&M will not offer adjustable LCA's because they have the adjustable UCA to sell which gives you the minimum level of adjustability required for a lowered chassis. Both of these improved products are now using legitimate or illegitimate versions of the Currie Johnnie Joint which off roaders have been using and abusing for many years.

HTH!
 
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Vapour Trails

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Hi Vapror,

Actually grease on the threads is not the problem. A properly torqued fastener in good condition will not loosen even with oil on the threads. Read that sentence, the key phrases are "properly torqued" and "fasteners in good condition." If you have a high quality torque wrench which has been calibrated recently the only other possibility is worn fasteners.

HTH!

Well, the L & R tokico D-specs front strut nuts were both torqued to spec at the same time. The L or drivers side has now come completely loose twice while the other side is still properly torqued. The wrench is not the issue and the condition of the threads is perfect (they are virtually brand new struts). I am at a loss to explain why one side won't stay tight, but it will this time.
 

DusterRT

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Well, the L & R tokico D-specs front strut nuts were both torqued to spec at the same time. The L or drivers side has now come completely loose twice while the other side is still properly torqued. The wrench is not the issue and the condition of the threads is perfect (they are virtually brand new struts). I am at a loss to explain why one side won't stay tight, but it will this time.

Maybe try a new nut if it comes loose again..perhaps the nylock is defective?
 

Pony DNA

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When doing the suspension, crowsfoot bits are your best buddy...

Hi SoundGuyDave,

I have what I consider to be the minimum tool count for a modest but complete tool collection. I have basically at least one of every type of hand tool, many with a wide selection of sizes which I think can be applied to automobiles. I also have literally at least one and many with dupes of every chromed, standard and deep socket in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive offered by Sears along with at least one of every 3/8" and 1/2" impact socket offered by Sears and ALL of the previous in both SAE and metric sizes. I also have at least one of every 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive accessory both chrome and impact quality offered by Sears along with every size of breaker bar and top of the line ratchet in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive. I have 5 torque wrenches in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" Snap-On labeled or Precision Instruments (until recently they made all of Snap-On's torque wrenches) and one torque driver by Wiha in 1/4" drive in/lb. for working on my precision rifles. I have one of every combination wrench offered by Sears along with a middle sizes collection of open ended and box end wrenches, every size of flex-headed ratcheting combination wrench offered by GearWrench, more screwdrivers than necessary, every type of plier, diagonal cutter, channel wrench etc. Then there are my air powered tools powered mostly Ingersoll Rand in 1/4", 3/8" and 1/2" drive, just don't get me started...

So you know I've been trying to find a reason to buy a big-ass set of crows foot bits but have not managed to figure out where I can use them. Where do you use them?

Cheers/Chip
 

Pony DNA

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Well, the L & R tokico D-specs front strut nuts were both torqued to spec at the same time. The L or drivers side has now come completely loose twice while the other side is still properly torqued. The wrench is not the issue and the condition of the threads is perfect (they are virtually brand new struts). I am at a loss to explain why one side won't stay tight, but it will this time.

Hi Vapor,

Are you using the stock type O.E.M. strut mounts? Did your D-Specs come with serrated locknuts or some sort of plastic insert Nylock? Mine came with bright plated serrated locknuts which worked directly on the top metal plate of the stock type strut mounts just fine when torqued to 46ft/lb. Are your nut's serrations worn down? I've had to replace mine due to wear and tear from playing with my suspension so much. These are easy to get replacements for on-line or at your local hardware store. But the best are Spiralocks which are designed for repeated reuse and do not wear out.

HTH!
 

SoundGuyDave

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Chip: I use crows foot bits anywhere that I can't get my torque wrench and a standard socket to physically fit... IIRC, I use them on the lower control arm body-side bolts, as the torque wrench that I have has a fairly chunky head, and has problems getting square on the bolt head. Also on the UCA. They're just kind of handy to have; once you have them, you'll find all kinds of uses!
 

Vapour Trails

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Hi Vapor,

Unfortunately J&M poly ball bushings are just a B.S. marketing gimmick used to deceive the mechanically unsophisticated (hey, no slight intended Vapor). I just had to blast these pieces of junk when they first came out and I got to do it on their own website!

Hot Parts/J&M used to have a comment section for each of their parts. One day I disassembled the polyball bushings and proved that they were no better and possibly worse than an ordinary unpatent pending two-piece poly bushing with steel sleeve. Several folks commented agreeing with me that mechanically the polyball bushings were simple marketing B.S.. Some folks who bought these LCA's said they did not see any difference between polyball bushings and standard bushings. Others who bought and installed LCA's with polyball bushings claimed that the HP/J&M polyball bushings were "just better" like HP/J&M claimed because they were applying for a patent.

blank.png



So then I explained that anybody can make a patent claim and apply for a patent for pocket change and in the mean time claim they have a patent pending. This is classic snake oil smoke and mirror B.S. Do you know how long it takes for a patent to be reviewed and processed? Several years at least and all during this period the patent applicants are allowed to continue to claim that their part has some sort of magic properties because it has a patent pending even though the so called improvements are as bogus as Bill Clinton's "I did not have sex with that woman" comment. By the time all the smoke from the B.S. clears there is no more market for the bogus magic item and nobody cares and more that the patent office denied the application. Of course nobody tells you what class of patent they applied for or exactly what is being applied for because it could be that the patent is for the unique use of lubricant on the steel bushing sleeve. It is a major joke (which is not so funny IMO) on the car part buying American public. O.K. enough ranting.

Then it got deep, I posted that there has been a much stronger metal near zero bind and far superior isolated rod end available for many, many years from Currie called "Johnny Joints." I suggested they should just buy these off the shelf and use them in their control arm products. At this point HP/J&M just tried to blow me off in the comment area by saying they were some how "just better" which obviously they are not if you read my comments or have any mechanical insight at all or engineering experience. Then HP/J&M tried to disprove my design and engineering comments which again they could not. Then J&M just ignored my comments by locking the thread preventing any more posts and then they quietly removed the ability for people to comment on their parts on their site all together. LOL!

But the upside is that HP/J&M took my comments to heart and now offer LCA's and UCA's using Currie's Johnny Joints! These are now IMO some of the better designed non-adjustable LCA's and adjustable UCA's. The quality of fabrication I cannot vouch for as they likely still do not use top of the line materials or fabrication methods and you cannot see what the welds look like due to the heavy layer of powder coating used. But at least they are on the right track!

If you feel you have to have J&M LCA's and want them to actually do what they claim you need to buy their so called Street/Race Extreme Joint version LCA's which are not adjustable. But if you get the J&M Street/Race Extreme Joint version of their UCA you get an adjustable piece. I would guess that J&M will not offer adjustable LCA's because they have the adjustable UCA to sell which gives you the minimum level of adjustability required for a lowered chassis. Both of these improved products are now using legitimate or illegitimate versions of the Currie Johnnie Joint which off roaders have been using and abusing for many years.

HTH!

How is the extreme joint different, other that the materials of construction, than the poly ball design. In both cases a ball articulates while being sandwiched between two bushings. How did you prove that they were a gimmick?

I was orignally going to buy the extreme joint LCAs, but I really didn't want a NVH increase.

I really don't car either way, they were dirt cheap are cured the wheel hop problem.

http://www.hotpart.com/templates/rt_versatility_iii_j15/rokzoom/images/blank.png
 
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DusterRT

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How is the extreme joint different, other that the materials of construction, than the poly ball design. In both cases a ball articulates while being sandwiched between two bushings. How did you prove that they were a gimmick?

Exactly what I was wondering; first thing I thought when I saw them was, "Hmm, a Johnny Joint...that's a good idea!"
 

Pony DNA

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How is the extreme joint different, other that the materials of construction, than the poly ball design. In both cases a ball articulates while being sandwiched between two bushings. How did you prove that they were a gimmick?

I was orignally going to buy the extreme joint LCAs, but I really didn't want a NVH increase.

I really don't car either way, they were dirt cheap are cured the wheel hop problem.


Hi Vapor,

The extreme/Johnnie Joint's ball is captured by a much narrower bushing as shown in this image. This is the reason the extreme/Jonnie Joint has the inside circlips deeply recessed in the control arm bushing shell is to allow the steel ball full articulation without having to compress the full depth and width outer bushings of the polyball bushings. The extreme/Johnnie Joint works almost as well as a rod-end in terms of articulation and location but has much better isolation of NVH. Reduced NVH is the whole point of the extreme/Johnnie Joints!

large_46_Street_Race_Extreme_Joint_Axle_Side_Close_Up_Black_-_800.jpg



Here is a shot of the polyball bushing. Look carefully at the ends of the bushings, they look just like standard poly bushings because that is exactly have they behave. If they used an extremely soft material for the outer bushings and a very hard poly for the inner ball I could see some improvement. If they were smart they would have advertised that this type of bushing offers reduced artifical spring rate, improved location and nothing else. But no they had to claim thay had a patent pending. Probably for some minor technicality.

large_6_S197_Upper_Control_Arm_Black_800.jpg


HTH!
 

DusterRT

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Ah, I thought you were talking about the LCA bushing design. Did they previously use that style of bushing used in the UCA in the LCA's?
 

Pony DNA

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Ah, I thought you were talking about the LCA bushing design. Did they previously use that style of bushing used in the UCA in the LCA's?


Hot Parts did not have the Extreme/Johnnie Joint until after I shredding their false advertisements. Then they decided to actually do what I suggested and either license or flat out copy the Currie Johnnie Joint design. If Hot Parts/J&M offered an adjustable version which was well designed and manufactured I'd recommend them in blink. But for now I suggest buying Steeda adjustable LCA's and just screwing a Currie Johnnie Joint on the axle end of the LCA's.

The J&M claim to fame was that idiotic polyball bushing as shown below. They are now offering the Extreme/Johnnie Joint version for both the UCA and LCA's. If the polyball bushing really did all they claimed why did they bother to copy the Currie Johnnie Joint design? According to their advertisements the polyball bushings have completely solved the bushing bind problems of conventional 2 or 3 piece bushings and are completely free to articulate and offer rod-end levels of location and compliance. All of which are obviously false if you have any mechanical sense at all. Just look at the image of the polyball bushing and you can see this.

HTH!
 

gray1622

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I didn't read the whole thread. I remember seeing on modularfords where a guy did a gt500 motor in an v6. During his build he strength some welds in the back of the car that he said was pron to clunking. I am not sure this true any clunking I ever had was due to loose sway bar or dam CHE bushing. I now run J&M and had them on for about 15,000 miles and no clunking here..
 

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