Tunes, p0021, and diagnoses approach

Boss281

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Have a 2005 Mustang GT: cold air intake, intake manifold, comp 127500 cams and phase limiters, full exhaust with o/r h-pipe. Raced the car since 2006, been slowly putting suspension back to street.

I've used custom tunes from 2 private tuners over the years, the first one was a significant help getting the car into the 11s on motor, the second one was on a whim while getting some repairs out of state. Both tunes have run fine, the latter through the last year.

The tunes were on an old Xcal 2 and I felt it was time to get something newer, so I shopped a bit with well known Mustang aftermarket companies and found an xcal 4 and with coupons and promo codes for a good price and it came with two tunes. Fill out the sheet, yada yada. first set of tunes didn't work (crank but no start) and blew the dash fuse, called support and adjustment for "problems seen with C&L manifolds" sent, then the car ran fine on both tunes, very well in fact. But, both tunes throw p0021 for "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 2) about 5 minutes on the road, whether I baby it or gun it. Am told by tech support that only one bank having the problem is a hardware issue, and not in the tune. Ok, seems coincidental, but I guess I can see the logic not knowing all that much about tunes. I've depended on expertise elsewhere.

Searched here on the forum and elsewhere. I am in a $$$ cycle that means nearly no funds for repairs, so I have to really try to diagnose this issue on my own or through friends and good hourly rates. I've heard everything from radio frequency interference from the alternator (which isn't throwing codes but keeping the battery charged has been an off and on battle since purchase) to the VCT solenoid to the timing chain to other somewhat esoteric issues with the VCT system. I need to be smart about how I spend money the next few months, and not just start buying parts hoping I get a hit.

I could really use some advice on the steps to diagnose this, a logic tree if you will. Your help is much appreciated. Many Mustangs have come and gone since I purchased the 2005 brand new in January 2005, and this one has been nearly flawless regarding problems, and has been a consistent beast at the track. Shit happens, so I want to fix the shit and enjoy the car on the street for a bit. Frustrated, obviously.

Thanks in advance.

John
 

07 Boss

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I agree that it looks like a hardware issue. The only way to tell for sure which component it is going to be is tear her down and actually inspect the parts. I'm kinda thinking phasers in that running bigger lift cams tend to wear on the phasers do to the increased tension placed upon the rotation of the cam. It's more about the ramp rate than the actual lift, but both combined has probably taken it's toll on the valve train.
 

Boss281

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Well, it's sort of like putting in a new clutch. Since you have it all apart, you might as well put in a new pilot bearing, slave cylinder, and at least reface the flywheel, if not replace it with a matched one.

So if I open up the heads, I'll have to research what are good top end parts candidates for wear and tear and replace them. Then again, the 127500 cams were great for racing, but are they the best for the street? And I've always wanted ported heads. Sheesh...money money money...

Thanks for the quick response...
 
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Boss281

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Well, I'm now sporting the p0011 CEL as well, indicating the passenger side bank is malfunctioning as well: "A" Camshaft Position - Timing Over-Advanced or System Performance (Bank 1). Along with the p0021, I may have a tune issue (going with "custom" canned tunes from a well known mail order tuner/aftermarket company) since these CELs never appeared with my prior custom tune from local Mustang tuner.

While I need to chase down possible RFI from the alternator (which can be failing, another false positive coming from the p0021), I suspect I'm going to replace the VCT solenoids both sides just to see if this is the problem.

Once the valve covers are off, what else can I look for? If I've opened it up, should anything be replaced since I'm in there? What if I have to replace the front cover and expose the timing chain? Should I get the FRPP kit like this LINK? Anything else? Phasers bolts, Phasers?

I'm about ready and say fuck it, just pull the heads, get them ported or buy FRPP heads, and start the fuck over. I'm not a mechanic but I can do this if I know what to look for and have steps to follow...

Frustrated.

John
 

wht67

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Maybe I missed it but have you tried reloading the tunes from the Xcal 2 and see if it throws the same codes? But then again, it is an '05 and there have been revisions to the phasers over the years so it could be an actual hardware issue.
 

Boss281

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Maybe I missed it but have you tried reloading the tunes from the Xcal 2 and see if it throws the same codes? But then again, it is an '05 and there have been revisions to the phasers over the years so it could be an actual hardware issue.

Actually, I did, but when I put the xcal4 on and returned it to stock, my xcal2 wouldn't read the car and kept timing out. I have "heard" that a weak battery may be the cause, and I've got the car on a trickle charger now. Once I hear back from the aftermarket company about my datalogs collected over the weekend, if a new tune doesn't help, I will try that again.
 

Boss281

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UPDATE:

Occams Razor: the simplest answer might be the right one.

It sounds like the aftermarket company mail order tune is the problem. After disconnecting the battery for a bit, on reconnection I used the XCAL4 to put it back to stock, then the old XCAL2 was able to talk to the PCM and I uploaded both tunes, tried 10 mile runs with each, then put it on the "best" of the two, and beat the car up for 25 more miles on twisty two lanes. NO VCT CELS, or any CELs, at all! So it appear it's the tune. With the two mail order tunes on the XCAL4, I got a CEL about 1 mile out on any given run, with it sometimes taking 5 miles or so. Problem solved hardware vs software? ...still having the car checked out professionally tomorrow, but I think it may be moot. We'll see
 

Boss281

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UPDATE ON UPDATE: Well, once I let the company know the original custom tunes on my older xcal2 worked just fine without the CELs, they finally reinspected their tune file with a fine tooth comb and found the two tunes neglected to include the phaser limiters, despite that item clearly stated in the mod sheet they require when ordering the tuner. Interestingly, trying to diagnose this as a hardware issue found a failing alternator, which I replaced with one from PA. So I got the tunes fixed and a new alternator, so all is well.
 

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