A Max-Effort Build

[Norm Peterson]

Fortunately for us, it's easy to draw the lines showing the relative angle of the wheels. To draw the lines, I located the uppermost and lowermost points of each wheel, and drew the lines to intersect those points. When you do that, it becomes clear that the rear has negative camber relative to the front (click on the image to see the lines better):

Try checking that rear construction line against a line drawn perpendicular to the pavement. Out at the top = +camber.

The red construction lines have been 'tipped' slightly because the picture is not a true head-on shot. The bottom line is intended to be running between the rear tire contact patches but I only have 1° rotation resolution available. If anything, it makes rear camber look less positive.

The front appears to be ever so slightly negative, which of course is what you want . . .

Norm

 

[Boaisy]

I'm not talking to you. You gave me bad juju and caused me to have to wait another month or so.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

They also sell a torque arm. ;-)

And they also sell Panhard bars. What's your point?

 

[ford20]

For under $40k, you can now buy a 727 crank hp 2016 stang, complete with Roush blower, adj rear camber and IRS. Ok, start there, then mod it.

It gets to the point where you are throwing $$ at old technology. Why mess with a 05-10 3v....when the 11+ engs are way better, right out of the box.

Why would I want a car that adds a couple extra hundred lbs. to the nose of the car and will induce added heat to the engine and the brakes for $39,999.00 +tax, title & licencing fees and start all over again. Chances are if I'm looking for a cambered rear axle I already have something like $7 or 8 k in suspension components under the car already not to mention all the other bits and pieces added to the car.

Yes you caused me to blow my new motor I seened it.

 

[kcbrown]

Try checking that rear construction line against a line drawn perpendicular to the pavement. Out at the top = +camber.

The reason I didn't do that is that there's enough black under the car to obscure the pavement, and I didn't want to exclude the possibility of that corner being sufficiently off-camber to account for the rear's angle (despite appearances to the contrary).

I figured that if the camber differed between rear and front, such that the rear was positive relative to the front, that was sufficient to show that the rear's camber was positive since I presume that Vorshlag set up the front properly, such that the camber in the front while cornering is very near the ideal. And if the front is very near the ideal, then it follows that the rear isn't.

 

[Norm Peterson]

But you do agree that the rear camber is positive, not negative?


Norm

 

[kcbrown]

But you do agree that the rear camber is positive, not negative?

I'm an idiot. I used "negative" when I meant "positive". I've corrected my original messages appropriately.

I really, really hate it when I do that.

 

[Pentalab]

Why would I want a car that adds a couple extra hundred lbs. to the nose of the car and will induce added heat to the engine and the brakes for $39,999.00 +tax, title & licencing fees and start all over again. Chances are if I'm looking for a cambered rear axle I already have something like $7 or 8 k in suspension components under the car already not to mention all the other bits and pieces added to the car.

I'm talking about the 05-10 cars, not the 11+ cars. If you have a 11-14 car, sure, mod away. If you have a 05-10 car, you are way down on power..at least in NA mode.

Forget the roush blower on the 15+ cars... that was just a smart ass remark to show what u can now get for < 40K$.

The MT-82 is not the best of tranny's..but useable. I agree though, the S-550 would still require a ton of mods to get it right.

What I haven't seen is... a S-550 that has been fully tweaked and modded for track use. Are there any out there yet ? How are they working out ?

 

[Norm Peterson]

I'm talking about the 05-10 cars, not the 11+ cars. If you have a 11-14 car, sure, mod away. If you have a 05-10 car, you are way down on power..at least in NA mode.

Sure, if an all-out-in-every-respect build is what you're chasing, a 3-v 4.6 isn't going to be nearly enough. Not at a car weight of 3600 lbs or so. Hell, it could be argued easily enough that a 4-v 5.0 isn't enough either. Even the modular engine's basic architecture could be more than a little suspect with its relatively tiny bore size in displacements that'd matter here.

But it's entirely possible (and I think very rewarding) to build toward and drive a max-effort chassis with a more moderate amount of power. Although it may be a difficult concept for many people whose car enthusiasm has grown up around rumbling thundering V8 engines, there's nothing wrong with driving a Mustang a little more like a 'momentum car' than the 'point and shoot' image it gets from the street/strip side.


Norm

 

[ddd4114]

I can't believe this is still being discussed...

Yeah, if you're starting from scratch and the sky is the limit, then using a newer car/powertrain makes sense from a financial standpoint. However, not everybody needs the latest and greatest technology. Plus, in 5-10 years, your proposed S550 build will probably be obsolete compared to other platforms on the market. Should you then sell it at a considerable loss and start over? Most of us don't have that kind of expendable income.

Some Spec Miata guys dump thousands into their cars, and that platform uses technology from decades ago. They don't do it because they're dumb or myopic; they do it because it's a fun hobby.

Different strokes for different folks.

 

[Wes06]

I won't be one upgrading models unless I have to.

Love the 05-09 body style to much
If I have to I'll replace suspension stuff and custom mount control arms, partial tubbing, etc etc

 

[barbaro]

Modifying cars and taking them to the track and seeing what they can do is fun for its own sake. You don't need to have the latest and greatest iteration of any particular vehicle to do that and it's not practical to do that. With the pace of technology today cars become obsolete every three years. Who can afford to constantly buy new vehicles to modify them even further?

 

[barbaro]

And they also sell Panhard bars. What's your point?

My point is you and Terry Fair are wrong. But you are wrong in a very smug way which I guess makes it ok. There's a damn good reason that those experienced race car builders who I am sure have Superior experience to anybody on this forum criticizing them, put a torque arm on that car. And I believe Filip Trojanek explained to you why on my thread. Direct further inquiries to Cortex Racing who because of issues I have raised, is finally a member of this forum.

 

[barbaro]

↑↑↑ Have you ever researched the use of 3-link suspensions in the Trans-Am series?

I'll give you a hint . . . all three longitudinal links ended up being much longer than they are in the S197, especially the upper.

Where am I going with this? Let's just say that the devil is in the details for both of these rear suspension configurations, and that from there you can end up with a range from really good to horrible with either kind of suspension. Google 'Track-link' sometime if you still think that torque arms are always superior.

It would be necessary to know the details of the rules for the class this car runs in, in order to know whether use of the torque arm was driven by limitations preventing a proper long 3-link arrangement (such as the extent of allowed floorboard cutting).


Have you ever stopped to consider that a torque arm is little more than a virtual 3-link with a couple of the pieces turned ~90° in side view? (should I put "pieces" in "" . . . . naaah)


Norm

Actually no I have never considered that. I don't care about that. All I know is that I put a torque arm on my car and it made my car handle a hell of a lot better.

Secondly, on my thread, Filip Trojanek has explained to you personally, exactly why the car handles better. 3rd, he has also explained that the benefits of the torque arm extend past street use on to the track, where you can run softer springs and get the same or better grip while also preserving your tires. 4th, he knows this because has spent thousands of hours testing these vehicles in a variety of configurations. He has hard data.

5th, finally he explained to you that the torque arm changes the instant center of the vehicle so that inputs from and to the front and the back of the vehicle are felt by the driver more directly, giving the driver a greater sense of control, improving confidence and thus improving lap times. Did I miss anything Norm?

 

[barbaro]

Sure, if an all-out-in-every-respect build is what you're chasing, a 3-v 4.6 isn't going to be nearly enough. Not at a car weight of 3600 lbs or so. Hell, it could be argued easily enough that a 4-v 5.0 isn't enough either. Even the modular engine's basic architecture could be more than a little suspect with its relatively tiny bore size in displacements that'd matter here.

But it's entirely possible (and I think very rewarding) to build toward and drive a max-effort chassis with a more moderate amount of power. Although it may be a difficult concept for many people whose car enthusiasm has grown up around rumbling thundering V8 engines, there's nothing wrong with driving a Mustang a little more like a 'momentum car' than the 'point and shoot' image it gets from the street/strip side.


Norm

Lest you think I'm your opponent , I want to chime in here especially where I agree with you. Bottom line is Handling is where it's at. Your car is only as fast as you can drive it. Quite honestly you don't need more than 300 horsepower have a kick-ass car if it handles good. I have been passed by Miatas.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Actually no I have never considered that. I don't care about that. All I know is that I put a torque arm on my car and it made my car handle a hell of a lot better.

Secondly, on my thread, Filip Trojanek has explained to you personally, exactly why the car handles better. 3rd, he has also explained that the benefits of the torque arm extend past street use on to the track, where you can run softer springs and get the same or better grip while also preserving your tires. 4th, he knows this because has spent thousands of hours testing these vehicles in a variety of configurations. He has hard data.

5th, finally he explained to you that the torque arm changes the instant center of the vehicle so that inputs from and to the front and the back of the vehicle are felt by the driver more directly, giving the driver a greater sense of control, improving confidence and thus improving lap times. Did I miss anything Norm?

It's a holiday weekend and I'm going to take my time with what Filip posted. When I understand it on my own terms I may get back with questions or comments. You should already be aware that I'm already kicking #4 around for a deeper understanding than you get from reading a few lines of flat text. There's a big difference between "I read it" and "aha, now I get it".

I really didn't expect you'd ever made the connection between these two suspension arrangements, but I had hoped that your blinders weren't strapped on so tight that you wouldn't at least give it some thought. Even though just the thought that they might be more closely related than in opposition to each other probably sticks in your throat.


Norm

 

[kcbrown]

Modifying cars and taking them to the track and seeing what they can do is fun for its own sake. You don't need to have the latest and greatest iteration of any particular vehicle to do that and it's not practical to do that. With the pace of technology today cars become obsolete every three years. Who can afford to constantly buy new vehicles to modify them even further?

Ain't that the truth. This. In spades.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me, it's the journey, not the end results, that matters.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Modifying cars and taking them to the track and seeing what they can do is fun for its own sake. You don't need to have the latest and greatest iteration of any particular vehicle to do that and it's not practical to do that.

We do agree on this much. There's a good bit of satisfaction to be had by doing better than people expect with what's viewed from the outside as being less, too.


Norm

 

[barbaro]

It's a holiday weekend and I'm going to take my time with what Filip posted. When I understand it on my own terms I may get back with questions or comments. You should already be aware that I'm already kicking #4 around for a deeper understanding than you get from reading a few lines of flat text. There's a big difference between "I read it" and "aha, now I get it".

I really didn't expect you'd ever made the connection between these two suspension arrangements, but I had hoped that your blinders weren't strapped on so tight that you wouldn't at least give it some thought. Even though just the thought that they might be more closely related than in opposition to each other probably sticks in your throat.


Norm

You know Norm, I like you more than you think. And I would never pretend to have your knowledge regarding the Dynamics of these vehicles. And if I could turn back the clock with all you guys, I would. I do consider you a resource, and I want to give you credit for that. And I completely understand the absolute necessity of skepticism.

I also recognize that when I waxed enthusiastic about the torque arm, I came off as a bit of a newb and of course that didn't go over well and my ego got involved and things devolved quickly. I am sorry about my part in it.

We all share a love and we all have our own girl and its natural to think your girl is best. But I swear to you Norm, thats not what happened here. I had gone through about 3 third links in two cars and I discovered Cortex and they were not that well known and I tried the watts link and then the rear end.

If you watch the Big Muscle episode with Mustoe and his giddy reaction to the cortex rear end handling the hump at Laguna seca, that was exactly my reaction. And I tried to share it with you guys but I didn't have any credibility. I understand.

So a lot of negativity came out of all this, but I am tickled pink that it ultimately resulted in connecting Filip with this online community. It's kind of like connecting two different schools of thought and I hope it leads to intellectual ferment. And I know you will participate in that.

As you can see, Filip is an incredibly nice and humble person and has all the qualities I don't. I am proud of having heralded him, but believe you me I do wish I had been able to do it without getting into a pissing match with everybody. But my spine stiffened and unfortunately I became like a pit bull off his leash. Some of the things that I have written had to be written but they didn't have to be written the way I wrote them. So I'm sorry.

So as to Sky, Render, Sound Guy Dave, you Norm, and everyone else, I said my peace. I still think I am right but I acknowledge I was wrong in the way I went about it. I will now retreat and hopefully you guys and Filip will solicit each other and talk and we can all watch the discussion. I am not going to pretend I have anything to contribute at this point.

Filip is real busy but I believe it's in his best interest to participate here and I really hope to be fascinated by the ensuing conversation. This max effort build for instance is fresh and I already feel this forum has new vitality.

And one last thing, today remember the fallen. All the incredible young men, that would have turned out to be guys just like us and better than us, who are dead so that we can live in a society where middle-class people can argue about the merits of their high horsepower racing cars. Today requires humility. Me maybe more than others.

 

[kcbrown]

You know Norm, I like you more than you think. And I would never pretend to have your knowledge regarding the Dynamics of these vehicles. And if I could turn back the clock with all you guys, I would. I do consider you a resource, and I want to give you credit for that. And I completely understand the absolute necessity of skepticism.

I also recognize that when I waxed enthusiastic about the torque arm, I came off as a bit of a newb and of course that didn't go over well and my ego got involved and things devolved quickly. I am sorry about my part in it.

We all share a love and we all have our own girl and its natural to think your girl is best. But I swear to you Norm, thats not what happened here. I had gone through about 3 third links in two cars and I discovered Cortex and they were not that well known and I tried the watts link and then the rear end.

If you watch the Big Muscle episode with Mustoe and his giddy reaction to the cortex rear end handling the hump at Laguna seca, that was exactly my reaction. And I tried to share it with you guys but I didn't have any credibility. I understand.

So a lot of negativity came out of all this, but I am tickled pink that it ultimately resulted in connecting Filip with this online community. It's kind of like connecting two different schools of thought and I hope it leads to intellectual ferment. And I know you will participate in that.

As you can see, Filip is an incredibly nice and humble person and has all the qualities I don't. I am proud of having heralded him, but believe you me I do wish I had been able to do it without getting into a pissing match with everybody. But my spine stiffened and unfortunately I became like a pit bull off his leash. Some of the things that I have written had to be written but they didn't have to be written the way I wrote them. So I'm sorry.

So as to Sky, Render, Sound Guy Dave, you Norm, and everyone else, I said my peace. I still think I am right but I acknowledge I was wrong in the way I went about it. I will now retreat and hopefully you guys and Filip will solicit each other and talk and we can all watch the discussion. I am not going to pretend I have anything to contribute at this point.

Filip is real busy but I believe it's in his best interest to participate here and I really hope to be fascinated by the ensuing conversation. This max effort build for instance is fresh and I already feel this forum has new vitality.

And one last thing, today remember the fallen. All the incredible young men, that would have turned out to be guys just like us and better than us, who are dead so that we can live in a society where middle-class people can argue about the merits of their high horsepower racing cars. Today requires humility. Me maybe more than others.

This. Awesome. As far as I'm concerned, you are most welcome here.

Here's what I'd like to see you do: share the changes you made to the car, step by step, and tell us what the changes felt like, what they made it possible for you to do with the car that you couldn't before (or, if it was a change that made things worse, say what it made more difficult or impossible).

Subjective viewpoints are still valuable. They're especially valuable if you can give details about what you felt after making changes. When you do that, things can be connected together, and it might even make it possible to draw conclusions.

For instance: you used to be on Boss 302 springs with Koni dampers. You switched to JRI dampers with different spring rates. What rates are you running? How does it feel when driving on the street? How is it different when driving on the street from what your setup was before? How does it differ in feel when you're driving on the track?

Your contribution here can be very valuable indeed, especially because you've been experimenting with parts that few others have (how many others here are running JRI dampers?).


Welcome, sir! I, for one, am looking forward to seeing a lot more from you here.