A Max-Effort Build

[Norm Peterson]

You know Norm, I like you more than you think. And I would never pretend to have your knowledge regarding the Dynamics of these vehicles. And if I could turn back the clock with all you guys, I would. I do consider you a resource, and I want to give you credit for that. And I completely understand the absolute necessity of skepticism.



And one last thing, today remember the fallen. All the incredible young men, that would have turned out to be guys just like us and better than us, who are dead so that we can live in a society where middle-class people can argue about the merits of their high horsepower racing cars. Today requires humility. Me maybe more than others.

I appreciate hearing this from you.

For what it's worth, there's a lot on TV that I've never heard of, and "Big Muscle" is one example (I don't have the slightest idea where to even find it). Never mind that the drama that's been built into many of the shows and the lack of depth in what passes for technical explanation has kind of turned me off from the majority of automotive TV. Teach me something new, something I can use, dammit. Perhaps that episode would have been the exception, but unfortunately I'll probably never know one way or the other.


It's 9PM here and today was a day to remember the ultimate sacrifices of others. I think the older you get the harder it becomes to think of what each of those young lives never got the chance at, so that the rest of us could.


Norm

 

[barbaro]

KC, thank you.
My build sheet is long. There is almost nothing stock left in the car. it's not even done yet as I will be adding an AP Radical complete brake kit. I have different parameters and goals then most the people in corner Carver's. Everyone here is expert on track adapted Mustangs. They mostly favor no compromises. I have had to make compromises.
At the outset, I wanted to turn this car into a log axle exotic with European Factory ride quality. Crazy huh? You know whats crazier still? I think I might have done it.

First I have done the unthinkable, I have added weight throughout the vehicle by dynamatting the vehicle from firewall to trunk. Then beneath the carpets I have put a half inch layer of sound deadening foam, got Lloyd's thick plush floor mats and I put it on top of that. I cut a three-quarter inch sheet of sound deadening foam and I put it underneath a new and thicker carpet in my trunk. There is no perceptable harmonic resonance in my vehicle.

I have added a heavier mm k member which I could wax poetic about but I don't want to get out in front of my skis again. I have added Stiffler subframe connectors I have a rear chassis brace from Steeda. I changed my engine mounts to Steeda. I've got a boss 302s steering rack as well as boss 302s front lower control arms with stiffer bushings.

Right now I've got it dialed in to where the ride quality is just excellent and it feels like a good BMW M Class vehicle with a nasty cammed 600 horsepower naturally aspirated American V8. So I've added about 200 horsepower and probably 200 pounds which is distributed through the middle and rear of the vehicle. I am sure I have also change the weight distribution of the vehicle about 1% or so.

I don't want to brag anymore about the ride quality or the performance. I am in the process of getting the car reviewed and instrument tested and hopefully that will all be done by the end of this year. I would really like other people to drive my vehicle and give me their thoughts on it . I haven't even mentioned the interior and all that but this really should be on another thread . Meanwhile I might make a Go Pro video either at the track or in the mountains.

 

[kcbrown]

KC, thank you.
My build sheet is long. There is almost nothing stock left in the car. it's not even done yet as I will be adding an AP Radical complete brake kit.

You have the Brembo brakes already, right? What is your goal for the brake kit?

I have different parameters and goals then most the people in corner Carver's. Everyone here is expert on track adapted Mustangs. They mostly favor no compromises. I have had to make compromises.

Yeah, I compromise as well. I think more people here do that than you might expect, but perhaps not in the same way that you are. As for myself, my goals may be even more different than yours, in that I'm not after the fastest platform I can get my hands on, but rather the most fun!

Fortunately for me, Ford has already managed to produce a relatively well-sorted and fun car: the Boss 302. It's most certainly not the ultimate track car by any means, but if the way my car behaves is anything to go by, it's decent, at least by my meager standards. Most importantly, it's a great deal of fun to drive on the track and around an autocross course. And knowing what it should be capable of on the track makes it clear to me that any lack of speed around the track is because of my driving, and not the car's capability.

At the outset, I wanted to turn this car into a log axle exotic with European Factory ride quality. Crazy huh? You know whats crazier still? I think I might have done it.

To get that and something that handles well is high aspirations indeed.

First I have done the unthinkable, I have added weight throughout the vehicle by dynamatting the vehicle from firewall to trunk. Then beneath the carpets I have put a half inch layer of sound deadening foam, got Lloyd's thick plush floor mats and I put it on top of that. I cut a three-quarter inch sheet of sound deadening foam and I put it underneath a new and thicker carpet in my trunk. There is no perceptable harmonic resonance in my vehicle.

Are you still able to hear the engine when you get on it, particularly with a helmet on? I find that to be invaluable since I'd have a lot of trouble knowing when to shift and how much to blip for a downshift otherwise.

I have added a heavier mm k member which I could wax poetic about but I don't want to get out in front of my skis again.

Hey, no need to wax poetic about it, but don't be afraid to describe what benefits you've seen from it, either. Like I said, subjective viewpoints are valuable. If you've noticed something different as a result of changing the K-member, that's got value.

I have added Stiffler subframe connectors I have a rear chassis brace from Steeda. I changed my engine mounts to Steeda. I've got a boss 302s steering rack as well as boss 302s front lower control arms with stiffer bushings.

So what improvements did you see from the steering rack? Did you do that to avoid the vibration issues that have plagued some 2012 owners, or did you have other reasons for it? Same question about the engine mounts -- how are they an improvement over the stock units, particularly given your goal of a car with exceptionally good NVH characteristics?

Right now I've got it dialed in to where the ride quality is just excellent and it feels like a good BMW M Class vehicle with a nasty cammed 600 horsepower naturally aspirated American V8. So I've added about 200 horsepower and probably 200 pounds which is distributed through the middle and rear of the vehicle. I am sure I have also change the weight distribution of the vehicle about 1% or so.

But you changed the weight distribution in the right direction!

I don't want to brag anymore about the ride quality or the performance. I am in the process of getting the car reviewed and instrument tested and hopefully that will all be done by the end of this year. I would really like other people to drive my vehicle and give me their thoughts on it . I haven't even mentioned the interior and all that but this really should be on another thread . Meanwhile I might make a Go Pro video either at the track or in the mountains.

Please, please do it at the track. It'll make it possible to do comparisons against other cars. If you can get a pro driver to drive it around the track, that would be especially worthwhile.

 

[barbaro]

I will soon do a build thread in a more appropriate forum. A real racer does not want to see the word dynamat. ;-)

 

[El_Tortuga]

Try checking that rear construction line against a line drawn perpendicular to the pavement. Out at the top = +camber.

The red construction lines have been 'tipped' slightly because the picture is not a true head-on shot. The bottom line is intended to be running between the rear tire contact patches but I only have 1° rotation resolution available. If anything, it makes rear camber look less positive.

The front appears to be ever so slightly negative, which of course is what you want . . .

Norm

That's exactly what I'm saying Norm. Good illustration.

 

[Sky Render]

I've got no problem with you, Barbaro. I'm staying out of this discussion because I've never driven a torque-arm-equipped car. So I don't have an opinion one way or the other!

I'd sure like to try driving one, though. Because if I liked the way it handled better than my spherical bushing 3-link, I'd consider installing one on mine.

 

[Norm Peterson]

KC, thank you.
My build sheet is long. There is almost nothing stock left in the car. it's not even done yet as I will be adding an AP Radical complete brake kit. I have different parameters and goals then most the people in corner Carver's. Everyone here is expert on track adapted Mustangs. They mostly favor no compromises. I have had to make compromises.
At the outset, I wanted to turn this car into a log axle exotic with European Factory ride quality. Crazy huh? You know whats crazier still? I think I might have done it.

First I have done the unthinkable, I have added weight throughout the vehicle by dynamatting the vehicle from firewall to trunk. Then beneath the carpets I have put a half inch layer of sound deadening foam, got Lloyd's thick plush floor mats and I put it on top of that. I cut a three-quarter inch sheet of sound deadening foam and I put it underneath a new and thicker carpet in my trunk. There is no perceptable harmonic resonance in my vehicle.

I have added a heavier mm k member which I could wax poetic about but I don't want to get out in front of my skis again. I have added Stiffler subframe connectors I have a rear chassis brace from Steeda. I changed my engine mounts to Steeda. I've got a boss 302s steering rack as well as boss 302s front lower control arms with stiffer bushings.

Right now I've got it dialed in to where the ride quality is just excellent and it feels like a good BMW M Class vehicle with a nasty cammed 600 horsepower naturally aspirated American V8. So I've added about 200 horsepower and probably 200 pounds which is distributed through the middle and rear of the vehicle. I am sure I have also change the weight distribution of the vehicle about 1% or so.

I don't want to brag anymore about the ride quality or the performance. I am in the process of getting the car reviewed and instrument tested and hopefully that will all be done by the end of this year. I would really like other people to drive my vehicle and give me their thoughts on it . I haven't even mentioned the interior and all that but this really should be on another thread . Meanwhile I might make a Go Pro video either at the track or in the mountains.

It helps a lot to more completely know the direction you've been taking this build. Don't worry about your preferences and compromises made to suit driving other than on the track being different from anybody else's. Especially among those of us who still choose (or need) to drive our cars on the street as well as on the track, for more than just driving to and from the track.

Please do get some GoPro video - and let me recommend not using video settings that give lots of vertical pixel frame height for reasons involving distortion and filesize when that mostly means you'll only see more of the sky or the headliner. I'm also going to suggest getting your own datalogging equipment such as an Aim Solo (preferably DL) or a Traqmate. Those things aren't all that expensive.


Norm

 

[Boaisy]

This whole discussion reminds me of this post:

You don't need no stinking torque wrench on the top strut nut! Impact.

Blower pulley for the Magnacharger is supposed to be pressed on. Put the nut on. Impact. Torque wrench? Nope.

Got a decaying tooth? Impact.

FrankS trying bust your chops on grammar? Impact.

Norm Peterson getting geometrical in the emancipation of the proclamation of the suspension journal (1st through 12th edition)? Impact.

CSAmsh trying to set up the spike for Vorshlag to spike it? Impact.

Gmitch got a racecar and can rebuild a 1932 Koni friction shock absorber? Impact.

Whiskey promises you 550in/lb spring rates are comfortable? Impact.

Barbaro says the torque arm cures cancer? Impact.

SoundGuyDave says back, back, forward, roll, high punch, I just pissed my pants, but I'm not dead? Impact.

KCBrown said everyword ever made ten times to the tenth power times a million in one post? Impact.

Skyrender said I just saved three fitty by using an Eaton? Impact.

Obama said you didn't build that? Homo.

Don't ask. I have no idea.

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

... I'm staying out of this discussion because I've never driven a torque-arm-equipped car. So I don't have an opinion one way or the other!

I'd sure like to try driving one, though. Because if I liked the way it handled better than my spherical bushing 3-link, I'd consider installing one on mine.

I've driven torque arm equipped cars - probably more than 200 of them. From Foxes and SN95s, to 3rd and 4th gen Camaros, to S197s with torque arms attached. On the street, on the track, and in autocross.

The torque arm solid axle rear suspension design has been around since the 1960s and you know what? The OEM's have all abandoned it (2002 was the last model year for GM, on a platform introduced in 1982).

There are several businesses that still make what we call "legacy products" that use torque arms to this day, and I say more power to them. I like the guys at Cortex, Griggs, BMR and Spoohn. There are instances where a torque arm still makes sense, and is the best bang-per-buck upgrade for a given chassis. I think this is currently the best go-to rear suspension upgrade for the Fox/SN95, it works on the 3rd and 4th gens, and in some classes where rules limit changes I can see where it might make sense on an S197.

I've been working with a WRL team that has a 4th gen F-body and encouraged them to stick with the torque arm. We took an LGM torque arm, modified it to be a sliding front spherical mount (using some of our camber plate parts, heh!) to decouple it a bit under braking. It works for them and they've done well with it - and on their budget and power level (3.8L Buick, 200 whp) it made the most sense.

I feel that a properly designed 3 link rear is superior in almost every way (exception - some drag racers love torque arms) and that's what you see used in real race cars with solid axles (Trans Am series being the pinnacle of that - where you won't find a torque arm on the grid). That's not something that is up for debate - its fact. But yes, the 3-link on the S197 has a fairly short upper arm and I can see why people might think the 40"+ torque arm would be better. Its just not that simple.

There are severe limitations to a torque arm that are well known, including braking issues. These are very real and can be very pronounced. I've seen torque arm brake hop get so bad in a Camaro that it caused a T56 transmission to explode... in a parking lot (autocross). I've driven and cursed at so many torque arm equipped cars where you had to "drive around" the brake hop issue. It takes a lot of trickery to manage this - it is a very real issue.

Meanwhile there isn't a solid axle RWD pony car even made anymore... we are arguing over which type of dinosaur was better.
Barabaro is infatuated with torque arms and very passionate about them. He cannot explain why they are better - other than he has one (self fulfilling prophecy) and someone he trusts tells him its magic. "It works with more slip angle" or some such reasoning. I'm not going to debate TA vs 3 link because it has been debated to death. While its fun for some of you to argue suspension theory and the minutiae of microscopic changes to Strut Included Angle in other threads, I'm not getting sucked into those discussions - I've got work to do.

Cheers,

 

[Pentalab]

So what improvements did you see from the steering rack? Did you do that to avoid the vibration issues that have plagued some 2012 owners, or did you have other reasons for it? Same question about the engine mounts -- how are they an improvement over the stock units, particularly given your goal of a car with exceptionally good NVH characteristics?

I could hear a tiny tiny vibration with the new steeda eng mounts, but that was only between a real narrow 625-650 rpm. Idle has since been increased from 600 to 750, so don't hear it anymore. But the steeda mounts are a lot stiffer than the oem goo filled hydra mounts. The eng doesn't flop about. Put another way, if you had a shaker hood, it won't shake. Mine came with 2 sets of bushings, the red ones have a slightly lower durometer than the black ones. Black ones are stiffer...made for higher hp cars. My LT's + steeda eng mounts went in simultaneously.

They also allow for a stock eng height.... or a 1/4 - 1/2 - 3/4 inch eng drop. But you can only go so low...till the #8 header primary contacts the steering shaft. IMO, it was a good mod, and that's with oem K member. But I'm not Barbaro

 

[barbaro]

Hello Terry and let me apologize if in the past I have offended you. The only thing I can say confidently is that the cortex torque arm changes the feel of the car and reduces nosedive and squat on acceleration. If a well sorted three link can do the same, I don't know.

But in a street driven vehicle modified for, but not dedicated to track use, the stock three link is inadequate and all the aftermarket three links clunk like hell.

Yes, I like the torque arm because of the change in feel and confidence it gave me not because of any other reason. i cannot say it leads to faster lap times because I would be talking out my ass. Filip can and did briefly address that. I am sure there are more questions.

However, as for the wheel hop issue. I have not experienced it on this piece although I acknowledge your common experience. The car has been driven fairly hard on track with the hardest braking i have had to do is coming down from 135 to 70 for turn one at Willow Springs. Previously, hard braking there would cause my nose to dive and my back end to unload and get a little squirrely. but I must qualify my experiences by saying that the car and I only have about 150 laps on one track.

Those are my honest personal experiences. I wish when I had forst touted it, I confined my observations to just that and did not advocate it so zealously. But it does work for me. I recognize there are different schools of thought and hopefully some of the engineering principles can be resolved to everyone's satisfaction without anymore rancor.

 

[BMR Tech]

If I were putting together a max-effort build on an S197, here is what I would do.

Stability for days!

 

[ford20]

Plus no back of the car.

 

[Boaisy]

Very light weight.

 

[modernbeat]

If I were putting together a max-effort build on an S197, here is what I would do.

Stability for days!

Roll center ends up pretty high with that design.

I would, and did go another route. Here's my Lotus7 with a three-link and underslung Watts link. Lots of adjustability to experiment with, and worked great. The very-low RC was necessary for a light car on slicks (R25b non-DOT Hoosiers). Also, no rear structure so very, very lightweight. Even with the steel wheels and axle housing it was 950 lbs with fluids.

 

[BMR Tech]

^ that looks like a lot of fun.

 

[modernbeat]

^ that looks like a lot of fun.

It was.

 

[Wes06]

i wanna turn...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

So, the ALM 3.5hr was yesterday, and it was a BLISTERING day at that. 92* ambient, 116* in the paddock (acres of blacktop), and a cool 97* on pit lane. I was crewing for a Porsche 944 team running in GT1, and was REALLY looking forward to seeing that Fall Line Mustang put a hurting on the entire field. Unfortunately, they never showed up. Nor did they register, that I could see. Fall Line was represented by a pair of M3s, and both wound up DNF. The first came in with an odd ticking noise, that turned out to be a failed balancer, and the second came off track and went straight to the paddock, so I don't know what happened with that one.

Our race was a mess. First, we were flat out-classed in GT1. 13.5:1 weight/power ratio, and we were around 16:1 in a NASA 944SPEC car, running against an ITE E30, a 944 CUP car, and a hopped-up Miata. We might have had a shot at a podium, as we were only a tick slower than the Miata, but could do the race on one stop, where they would have to stop twice. The math (I wrote a prediction program for our Crew Chief) said the margin would be less than a second, so we needed a clean stop to be in the hunt. 12 gallons of fuel, driver change, and out; simple, right?

Wrong. At 2:15 in, we were well into our fuel window, and the driver called in to say he had had enough. I was lead fueler, so I hopped the wall with the drip pan and chock, then pulled the fuel cap, while the #2 fueller came out with a jug. I ran back to the wall to grab the second jug, when the grid marshall started hollering about something, but it simply didn't compute. She put a full stop to the fueling while she explained that our fire-watch guy HAD to be in Nomex, just like the fuelers. Wrong. Fire watch, per the rules does NOT need to be in Nomex. As we're arguing this, the clock is ticking away... In the meantime, 4' forward, the drivers are swapping. The incoming driver dropped the window net, pulled the cool-suit and radio lines, and got out of the way. The outgoing driver just had to pop the belts and hop out, right? Wrong. He had a leg cramp and had difficulty getting out. On his way out, he hooked the fire-bottle pull and suddenly, we had AFFF boiling up all over the inside of the car and the engine bay. No hand-held extinguisher inside the car, which meant we had no fire suppression system in the car at all. The incoming driver, who was also the car owner, pulled the plug on the whole deal; safety first. As the car was pulling away, heading to the paddock and the trailer, the grid marshall came over and apologised for making "...the wrong call. I was concerned about safety, but I was wrong, the rules do NOT require the fire watch to be in Nomex." Given we were done for the day, and we will see her again as a marshall somewhere in the rest of the season, I told her it was no big deal, I understood, blah, blah, blah. If we had still been in the hunt, though, that call would have cost us a podium step, and I would have been more pissed than I was.

Bottom line: No 9000rpm Mustang to drool over, near heatstroke, and a DNF for the team. In other words, a crappy day spent racing, which is still better than a good day at work!!

 

[Boaisy]

So, the ALM 3.5hr was yesterday...I was crewing for a Porsche 944 team running in GT1...

At first, I was thinking by ALM GT1, you meant American LeMans GT1 which was making me think how the hell is a 944 running that class. Then Google saved me.