Cam phaser, to lock out or limit?

[jsawyer]

As we move along in the builds we find out more information. I am thinking about heads, cams and LT's. What are your thoughts on locking out VS. limiting (ie the Comp Cams limiters)the VCT? Does anyone besides Comp have dyno data on the limiters?

 

[psfracer]

In my opinion go with the limiters.

The 3V is a great performer because of the heads and the variable cam timing. With the limiters you can take advantage of this technology, while being safe at the same time.

Now, on another matter, I question the cost vs benefit of the aftermarket heads and cams on a s/c motor. That is alot of coin for 50-70 hp. I run stock heads and cams to this day because I couldn't justify spending $3500 on heads and cams. That would be 73,500 for you.

To further clarify, anyone who is N/A, heads and cams are definitely worth the time and money.

 

[Freaknazty]

In my opinion go with the limiters.

The 3V is a great performer because of the heads and the variable cam timing. With the limiters you can take advantage of this technology, while being safe at the same time.

Now, on another matter, I question the cost vs benefit of the aftermarket heads and cams on a s/c motor. That is alot of coin for 50-70 hp. I run stock heads and cams to this day because I couldn't justify spending $3500 on heads and cams. That would be 73,500 for you.

To further clarify, anyone who is N/A, heads and cams are definitely worth the time and money.

see i was told the same thing by the guy who does all my work he told me just to upgrade the springs and leave it be he said their is no need to pnp my heads ......... but i was wandering about the limiters and if i should put them with stock cams/mild cams because of me going with the stroker ?


and wtf look at ya slipped in a lil joke lmao but you messed it up it 70 lol

 

[CataclysmGT]

I got the limiters put in on my car when Adam built it. He said they were a well made product. Since the car only runs 9* retard WOT, nothing should be different on the dyno. Its at part throttle that the 20* reduces the hp to drive the valvetrain (or so I am told).

 

[chad05gt]

Limiters; safety while taking advantage of VCT.

IMO, locks for extreme aplications/race.

 

[PNR Welding]

I just had Livernois limiters installed in my phasers. We havent started the car yet, tommorrow should be the day, so I cant give you any experience on it. But expect to loose 10-20 hp by locking the cam timing out.

 

[94tbird]

lockouts are my opinion. When racing, the KISS method applies,

Keep It Simple Stupid

The simpler an engine is the less likely of a failure

Ill lose the 10-20hp and make it up with a pulley change

 

[Redwolf]

Is there any benefit to getting the limiters installed on a n/a engine with bolt ons? What about heads and cam work? I will be installing a lot more basic mods in the spring with it limited to heads and cam and would like to know. Also, is there a negative to limiters?

Thanks....

 

[mike@livernois]

I will send a message over to Rick about posting up some of the dyno numbers we had. I know we did a test to show the difference between unmodified stock VCT, full lockout and with the limiters installed. The car I believe lost 15 or so when fully locked out but then gained back 20 from that number to put it 5hp over the original unmodified VCT setup. It went something like this-

Unmodified VCT- 365 HP
Full Lockout- 350 HP
Livernois Limiters- 370 HP

The car also had an issue with cam phaser noise, the all to familiar knocking and tapping noise. I know Rick has a video of it, its pretty bad. So we did the swap over to the lockouts and then limiters and the noise is gone and has not returned.

At this point in the evolution of modifications to the VCT system I would say the the most full-proof fix is the full lockout. This is for anybody that wants to eliminate any chances of anything going bad. The limiter would be the next option as it allows for no loss in power while still avoiding the issues that go along with the factory VCT system. While we have used 100s of sets on cars at this point and went through a pretty intense testing phase with the limiters and have not had a single issue nor do we think there ever will be there is always the chance of some problem with anything that has moving parts. For the people that do not want any chance the lockouts are the best option.

I will send a message to Rick to get him to post that info.

Thanks
Mike Schropp

 

[jsawyer]

I will send a message over to Rick about posting up some of the dyno numbers we had. I know we did a test to show the difference between unmodified stock VCT, full lockout and with the limiters installed. The car I believe lost 15 or so when fully locked out but then gained back 20 from that number to put it 5hp over the original unmodified VCT setup. It went something like this-

Unmodified VCT- 365 HP
Full Lockout- 350 HP
Livernois Limiters- 370 HP

The car also had an issue with cam phaser noise, the all to familiar knocking and tapping noise. I know Rick has a video of it, its pretty bad. So we did the swap over to the lockouts and then limiters and the noise is gone and has not returned.

So the phasers that were making noise stopped after the limiters were added?
How easy is it to install the limiters, or how many hours would it take a shop? Also, would you then need a new tune?

 

[solaratomic]

I would also like to see the dyno spread sheet on the limiters. I've got a phaser knocking.

 

[CataclysmGT]

Livernois limiters are easy to install, Comp Cams (no moving parts) are much more difficult. Both require a retune to limit VCT to 20*

 

[don_w]

As of right now, I have neither. But I also have the upgraded springs on my Livernois heads and I still run stock cams. But if I were going to go in that direction, I'd go with the limiters rather than the lockouts.

 

[solaratomic]

How far does the VCT retard at highway speeds? Just wondering if the limiters would seriously affect my MPGs, my Stang is primarily a highway horse. 120+ miles every third day.

 

[Androdz]

In my opinion go with the limiters.

The 3V is a great performer because of the heads and the variable cam timing. With the limiters you can take advantage of this technology, while being safe at the same time.

Now, on another matter, I question the cost vs benefit of the aftermarket heads and cams on a s/c motor. That is alot of coin for 50-70 hp. I run stock heads and cams to this day because I couldn't justify spending $3500 on heads and cams. That would be 73,500 for you.

To further clarify, anyone who is N/A, heads and cams are definitely worth the time and money.

+1 I just polished my heads myself.

 

[Androdz]

I will send a message over to Rick about posting up some of the dyno numbers we had. I know we did a test to show the difference between unmodified stock VCT, full lockout and with the limiters installed. The car I believe lost 15 or so when fully locked out but then gained back 20 from that number to put it 5hp over the original unmodified VCT setup. It went something like this-

Unmodified VCT- 365 HP
Full Lockout- 350 HP
Livernois Limiters- 370 HP

The car also had an issue with cam phaser noise, the all to familiar knocking and tapping noise. I know Rick has a video of it, its pretty bad. So we did the swap over to the lockouts and then limiters and the noise is gone and has not returned.

At this point in the evolution of modifications to the VCT system I would say the the most full-proof fix is the full lockout. This is for anybody that wants to eliminate any chances of anything going bad. The limiter would be the next option as it allows for no loss in power while still avoiding the issues that go along with the factory VCT system. While we have used 100s of sets on cars at this point and went through a pretty intense testing phase with the limiters and have not had a single issue nor do we think there ever will be there is always the chance of some problem with anything that has moving parts. For the people that do not want any chance the lockouts are the best option.

I will send a message to Rick to get him to post that info.

Thanks
Mike Schropp

you are talking about peak #'s what about the area under the curve, whats the +/-'s thru the rpm range?

 

[mike@livernois]

Hey guys, just got back in the office. I am having Rick round me up the dyno graphs to post up so that it is a little easier to see.

The phasers were knocking until we installed the limiters, at that point the noise went away. The installation is pretty straightforward. There are detailed directions with a picture to explain it. The tune would need to be modified to limit the max retard to 20 degrees.

I will get that graph posted up as soon as I get it. Then we can further discuss the data.

Thanks
Mike

 

[eng943]

Hey guys, just got back in the office. I am having Rick round me up the dyno graphs to post up so that it is a little easier to see.

The phasers were knocking until we installed the limiters, at that point the noise went away. The installation is pretty straightforward. There are detailed directions with a picture to explain it. The tune would need to be modified to limit the max retard to 20 degrees.

I will get that graph posted up as soon as I get it. Then we can further discuss the data.

Thanks
Mike

Strange. I had lockouts in and phasers were quiet, and installed your limiters and the phasers started making noise. I'm chalking it up to the probability that the phasers were a problem prior to the limiters being installed.

 

[mike@livernois]

Okay, here is what Rick had sent me over. I think the graph is pretty straightforward. Here are the mods on the car.

Livernois Motorsports Stage 3 CNC Cylinder Heads
Livernois Motorsports Cam Phaser Limiters
Comp 127300 Camshafts
Kook's Longtube Headers and X-Pipe w/Cats
Corsa Axle-Back Exhaust System
C&L CAI
Tuned by Livernois Motorsports

Stock, it made 262 RWHP, after the mods, it made 370 RWHP / 340 RWTQ.

Here is the video from the noise: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=liqWdZ9qgOQ




I was close with my guess as to what the numbers were it seems. So let me know what other questions there are or if I need to explain anything and I would be glad to.

Thanks

 

[mike@livernois]

Strange. I had lockouts in and phasers were quiet, and installed your limiters and the phasers started making noise. I'm chalking it up to the probability that the phasers were a problem prior to the limiters being installed.

Hmm... Were there any signs of issues with the phasers before installing the limiters?

Thanks