Cam phaser, to lock out or limit?

[solaratomic]

So it sounds as though I need to replace my knocking phaser and then worry about the limiters. Am I correct?

 

[ChevyKiller]

My car does not sound like the one in the Livernois clip. Adam at ST says that the JE Pistons are typically a little noisey at start up for the first 2-3 minutes. That is also when the noise goes away.






70k

I would think that has more to do with your build and it taking a few minutes for things to expand. My last stoker was the same way.

 

[Androdz]

My car does not sound like the one in the Livernois clip. Adam at ST says that the JE Pistons are typically a little noisey at start up for the first 2-3 minutes. That is also when the noise goes away.


70k

Actually all it is the silicon % on the metal alloy. For example most stock "hypereutectic pistons contain 20-25% silicon) Most pistons themselves are good but the problem with such a high silicon % is that they are brittle and you can say good bye to your ring lands in case of any detonation. Forged alloy 4032 contain around 12% silicon and they dont expand as much. Forged alloy 2618 contain around 3% silicon and they are noisey at start up and sound like "maracas" but these alloy can withstand a real beating.

Andrew

 

[jsawyer]

Actually all it is the silicon % on the metal alloy. For example most stock "hypereutectic pistons contain 20-25% silicon) Most pistons themselves are good but the problem with such a high silicon % is that they are brittle and you can say good bye to your ring lands in case of any detonation. Forged alloy 4032 contain around 12% silicon and they dont expand as much. Forged alloy 2618 contain around 3% silicon and they are noisey at start up and sound like "maracas" but these alloy can withstand a real beating.

Andrew

good info

 

[eng943]

So it sounds as though I need to replace my knocking phaser and then worry about the limiters. Am I correct?

If it were my decision, I would do both at the same time. Otherwise you have to go into the cam covers a second time.

 

[ChevyKiller]

Actually all it is the silicon % on the metal alloy. For example most stock "hypereutectic pistons contain 20-25% silicon) Most pistons themselves are good but the problem with such a high silicon % is that they are brittle and you can say good bye to your ring lands in case of any detonation. Forged alloy 4032 contain around 12% silicon and they dont expand as much. Forged alloy 2618 contain around 3% silicon and they are noisey at start up and sound like "maracas" but these alloy can withstand a real beating.

Andrew

Just curious, if it's not a little 'slap' until they expand - then why does it go away after a few minutes of start-up?

 

[solaratomic]

If it were my decision, I would do both at the same time. Otherwise you have to go into the cam covers a second time.

Baby steps...I'm doin this on a fireman's salary

 

[Androdz]

Just curious, if it's not a little 'slap' until they expand - then why does it go away after a few minutes of start-up?

You are correct on the start-up till they expand; I was explaining they why to of it. 2618 alloy contains little silicon and they sound like that when they are cold. That goes off when they are heated. If the sound doesn't go when the engine is heat up it is because the bore is too big.

The 4032 contain more silicon and they dont sound that much because they expand less (less metal %) and smaller tolerances are used. But consequently by having more silicon they are not as strong as the 2618 alloy and they tend to be more brittle (resist less detonation since they will expand/break during a detonation)

With 2618 alloy pistons you have to live with them when they are cold. You have to wait till the engine is heated up because if not you can say good bye to your sleeves/cylinder walls/pistons.

 

[MexGT]

So, the VCT has also a role in the engines performance rather than only fuel efficiency?

I always thought the VCT was for fuel consumption.

What about the spring that is used in the limiters? how much can it handle before it breaks due to any reason?

 

[Androdz]

I posted a info thread on various VCT systems and how they make power

http://s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10812

There is a reason why Livernois made the limiters after they had the working lockouts in the market. The lockouts are great but the limiters are to be able to squeeze more power out of the VCT system. Hell I think I am going to make some limiters myself.

Andrew

 

[MexGT]

uhmmmm I still have my doubts about it in high hp cars. Theres a reason why the GT500 doesnt have it.

 

[eng943]

Baby steps...I'm doin this on a fireman's salary

Preaching to the choir, I have 18 years on, so I can relate. Seriously, the limiters are around $100.00, so when you do the phasers, adding the limiters to the job is not a big deal.

 

[Androdz]

uhmmmm I still have my doubts about it in high hp cars. Theres a reason why the GT500 doesnt have it.

different engine, different heads, better, bigger higher flowing? Ford's VCT system is still crude and needs to be perfected/fixed. That is why the lockouts were invented for when people that changed cams/springs and where having VCT problems. Haven't heard too much about phasers dying with stock camshafts/heads other than a fluke? If you want lockouts then fine use them and center your powerband at a certain point thats all. I prefer to keep my lowend/mid range. Also remember the VCT system is powered by oil pressure. Building up a block, increasing tolerances and still using the same weight of oil can drop your oil pressure which can cause the VCT system to malfunction @ low revs as well. Hell I still wont use 5w-20 on a stock 3v. Either way I am not telling you the ford vct is 100% effective or anything but I will tell you it unlocks extra power just read the thread so you can see why. Hell they tell me alcohol can kill me and I still drink, hell racing kills you also

Andrew

 

[MexGT]

I didnt used the 5w-20 oil either.

 

[Androdz]

I didnt used the 5w-20 oil either.

I know you dont If I recall correctly I recall you being one of the few to actually listen to the tech data on the 5w20 vs 5w30 threads but I dont remember if it was ON ModF or Mustangforums.

Andrew

 

[mike@livernois]

i have a few questions for mike or andy. I have that knocking noise also so after reading this iam looking at getting your limiters. But, other then stopping the knocking will i see any hp gains with just intake, long tubes off road pipes? And lastly, tuning. From what i read someone says you can tune for them with an sct or diablo, others say you cant. So, whats the answer?

Installing the limiters or lockouts should eliminate the knocking noise if that is indeed where it is coming from. It is important to pay close attention to the cam phaser when you take them off to make sure that the little pin that locates on the camshaft is not loose. In a lot of cases if the car has been running for some time with the phaser knocking the pin will start to get beat out and may be loose. At this point installing the limiter or lockouts will help but it won't help with the failing pin.

You should see a HP gain from the intake and long pipes. As for the tuning that question is a little beyond me. I will ask though and see what the answer is.

Thanks
Mike

 

[mike@livernois]

So, the VCT has also a role in the engines performance rather than only fuel efficiency?

I always thought the VCT was for fuel consumption.

What about the spring that is used in the limiters? how much can it handle before it breaks due to any reason?

The little spring is only there as a safety because upon original design I became worried that a one of the two pieces that was moving would tip and get sideways. After a lot more testing we found this was not the case really but I still feel more comfortable having the spring in there. Here is a link that relates more to the spring

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120801&page=2

Thanks
Mike Schropp

 

[MexGT]

The little spring is only there as a safety because upon original design I became worried that a one of the two pieces that was moving would tip and get sideways. After a lot more testing we found this was not the case really but I still feel more comfortable having the spring in there. Here is a link that relates more to the spring

http://www.modularfords.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120801&page=2

Thanks
Mike Schropp

Thanks Mike, If only locking out wouldnt "kill" some hp, that would be the best way to go hands down!

Can this be avoided with any special cam? any custom grind or something like that?

 

[Androdz]

Thanks Mike, If only locking out wouldnt "kill" some hp, that would be the best way to go hands down!

Can this be avoided with any special cam? any custom grind or something like that?

did you read how the article about vct??? It is impossible, please read the guide so you understand what vct does.

Andres

 

[06 Saleen wana-be]

Installing the limiters or lockouts should eliminate the knocking noise if that is indeed where it is coming from. It is important to pay close attention to the cam phaser when you take them off to make sure that the little pin that locates on the camshaft is not loose. In a lot of cases if the car has been running for some time with the phaser knocking the pin will start to get beat out and may be loose. At this point installing the limiter or lockouts will help but it won't help with the failing pin.

You should see a HP gain from the intake and long pipes. As for the tuning that question is a little beyond me. I will ask though and see what the answer is.

Thanks
Mike

so if i find that the pin is loose (because my car has had the knock for a looong time now so i figure it will be) can i just get new pins and put them in when i put the limiters in? The tuning is the biggest thing holding me back from getting these, so if i can use a handheld (or get a "canned" tune from you guys) i'll be getting these next month.