Need just a LITTLE bit more power

[jmauld]

Dave, call livernois and ask how much it costs to port your heads instead of buying a pair of their ported heads. It might be cheaper than you think.

 

[pcdrj]

Dave,

Michael at L&M does this all the time for SCCA/NASA guys. He routinely hits very tight HP/TQ targets to retain best in class setups. He won't guess, he'll engineer it.

http://www.lmengines.com/

 

[Vorshlag-Fair]

Road coursing with a supercharger no bueno, dat heat soak.

 

[frank s]

Are there no competitive original-Coyote-based cars in the new class? Someone has likely made several steps on that path, became discouraged or bored, and has a "project" Coyote car for sale. It might be less expensive in money and time/energy investment to start with a desirable engine in a newer chassis.

By the way: how is "Coyote" pronounced in the audible world?

Kye oatie? Kie oat?

Koh yohtay?

 

[ArizonaGT]

Kye Oatie IMO

 

[csamsh]

Either "kai OH tee" or "KAI oat" where I'm from

 

[Sky Render]

I say koy-OTT-ee, just to be different.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[Pentalab]

The M122 blower in the GT-500 is the wrong blower for the 07-12 GT-500 car. The entire M series of blowers is out to lunch. The IC pump in the GT-500 only comes on when the blower is on. IC pump should be on all the time. The de-gas bottle is too small. 100% distilled water + a jug of water wetter in the IC-HE-Pump loop is a better setup vs a 50-50 water/glycol mix.

The M122 blower is not efficient. The TVS-2300 would be ideal for track use. VMP makes a high flow D shaped elbow for the 2300 blower. D shaped at the blower end..and oval at the TB end. The intake to the blower is then cut away slightly..to turn the oem oval into a D shape. The blower outlet temps ( pre-IC) drop like a rock from that alone. Combined with the more eff TVS..and reasonable boost levels.... and a bigger de-gas bottle, and the 2013 IC pump and IC..... the GT-500 heat issue is resolved.

Plan B would be to use water-meth injection.

LT's + a one piece DS would provide even more power.

 

[Department Of Boost]

Bump the compression, mild cams and port the heads. Stock intake manifold. Done and done.

 

[sheizasosay]

Bump the compression, mild cams and port the heads. Stock intake manifold. Done and done.

What cam?

 

[Department Of Boost]

What cam?

Do I have to do all the work?

 

[sheizasosay]

Do I have to do all the work?

Just curious if you're talking about the 127300 as your "mild cam".

 

[Gray Ghost GT]

Bump the compression, mild cams and port the heads. Stock intake manifold. Done and done.

+1 JDM created a custom cam based on the FRPP "Hot Cams" when I went from the 4.6 to the 3V 5.0 stroker. I kept the stock manifold with better springs and ported FRPP heads (or take a look at the RGR or Fox Lake heads as options). You can mill the heads and bump up the compression and still run 93 octane with a quality tune. Should get you close to your target. Have you considered a larger Twin 62mm throttle body, e.g., BBK?

 

[Kaane]

Ported Heads and small cam upgrade should do it.

 

[sheizasosay]

So what's the story Dave? You holding off upgrades?

 

[SoundGuyDave]

So what's the story Dave? You holding off upgrades?

Welllllllllll..... That's where it gets interesting. It became rapidly obvious that once you get all the standard bolt-on stuff done, power becomes a LOT more difficult to come by. It appears that yes, I COULD get the numbers I want with just cams, but the torque and HP curves would be so peakey as to be essentially useless, and would be so far up the RPM range that there would be a serious risk of valvetrain failure if I stuck with the stock stuff. Going beyond just cams was pushing well past my budget constraints, so I've pretty much resigned myself to holding off till the off-season to do anything. But then...

Another AI competior, who just swapped to the Coyote, offered to help me out, with anything off his old engine, including the entire thing. I'm still waiting on details, but short form is a 5.0L 4.6-3V based forged stroker bottom end, with CNC'd heads, uprated springs, cams, intake, etc., etc., etc., that was making ~390RWHP. The bottom end needs freshening (rings and bearings), but it was running fine when it was pulled. I don't have all the details (who did the porting, what cam specs, phasers locked or limited, stock/oversize valves, what intake, dyno curves, etc, but given the power possibilities, I might be into doing a top-end swap and retune for my setup. Of course, price will tell, as well; I have no idea how "precious" this stuff is to them. For reasons mentioned earlier, I am NOT interested in sticking 350lbs of ballast into the car to run the higher HP motor, just to gain 1-2MPH in terminal velocity.

In the end, though, I know that for me to do a Coyote swap the "right" way, it'll wind up being $13K, including the close-ratio gearbox and a fuel cell. At this point, I'm unwilling to put TOO much into a 4.6, and have a maxed out setup, versus having a Coyote that's essentially loafing along with a restrictor on the inlet. Racing is expensive enough, no need to throw money down a rathole if it isn't necessary.

 

[2008 V6]

Welllllllllll..... That's where it gets interesting. It became rapidly obvious that once you get all the standard bolt-on stuff done, power becomes a LOT more difficult to come by. It appears that yes, I COULD get the numbers I want with just cams, but the torque and HP curves would be so peakey as to be essentially useless, and would be so far up the RPM range that there would be a serious risk of valvetrain failure if I stuck with the stock stuff. Going beyond just cams was pushing well past my budget constraints, so I've pretty much resigned myself to holding off till the off-season to do anything. But then...

Another AI competior, who just swapped to the Coyote, offered to help me out, with anything off his old engine, including the entire thing. I'm still waiting on details, but short form is a 5.0L 4.6-3V based forged stroker bottom end, with CNC'd heads, uprated springs, cams, intake, etc., etc., etc., that was making ~390RWHP. The bottom end needs freshening (rings and bearings), but it was running fine when it was pulled. I don't have all the details (who did the porting, what cam specs, phasers locked or limited, stock/oversize valves, what intake, dyno curves, etc, but given the power possibilities, I might be into doing a top-end swap and retune for my setup. Of course, price will tell, as well; I have no idea how "precious" this stuff is to them. For reasons mentioned earlier, I am NOT interested in sticking 350lbs of ballast into the car to run the higher HP motor, just to gain 1-2MPH in terminal velocity.

In the end, though, I know that for me to do a Coyote swap the "right" way, it'll wind up being $13K, including the close-ratio gearbox and a fuel cell. At this point, I'm unwilling to put TOO much into a 4.6, and have a maxed out setup, versus having a Coyote that's essentially loafing along with a restrictor on the inlet. Racing is expensive enough, no need to throw money down a rathole if it isn't necessary.

Dave – That 5.0 – 4.6 3 Valve sounds like a sweet deal. Refreshing the btm end is nothing. The engine is also a bolt in. Dyno time will be the determining factor as to intake restriction or exhaust design. The 3 Valve engine has been around for long enough so do some research and ask questions from whomever you have confidence in. Everyone, I trust, have extensive experience with the 4.6 – 5.4 (4 Valve motors) but little with the 3 valve.
Buy the 5.0 3 Valve and sell your original 4.6 to regain some of the cost. This is the most cost efficient way to get what you want but you are stile limited down the road. Might be better to bite the bullet now and upgrade to a different platform. It all depends on what your future goals are.
I stile suggest a Windsor or similar type platform - Smaller, easier to work on, cheaper, parts everywhere, cost effective, good HP & Torque curves for what you intend on doing and anyone can do it because it has been done so many times before.
Most people are running a 5.0 Coyote motor for a good reason - It’s a great motor – BUT – Don’t be a copy cat, it is huge, the mass is farther forward & higher up, the engine compartment is packed, it’s harder to work on because it’s so frigin big and has to be restricted for the HP requirements you currently need. If You wanted 500+ NA RWHP, you should consider the platform but you do not.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

2008 V6: You make a LOT of good points, and believe it or not, I have looked, HARD, at doing a Windsor conversion. Ex-NASCAR engines are not unheard of in AIX, and even in AI, there are more than a couple of 336, 347, and 351 Windsor motors running around the track. I even have an engine builder in my Rolodex, who did the motor in the CMC car after we popped one.

That said, when it comes to the actual numbers, the Windsor engine would have to provide some SERIOUS benefits to justify the cost. As I'm starting from scratch with that platform, there are a LOT of expensive bits that would have to go into the equation. Aftermarket ECU, fuel injection and spark control will run roughly $4500, including tuning. Given my focus on endurance racing, the extra fuel efficiency gained from EFI over a carb becomes a factor. The gains may not be much, but even one extra lap per fuel load can be the difference between a win and a loss, and EFI is positively more efficient than a carb. Next up is the biggest known weakness with the Windsor engine: the block. On the stock castings, the #2 main web is, ahem, prone to splitting the block into a pair of V-4 engines, and it gets awfully expensive when that happens. The solution is to start with an aftermarket block, like the World Man-O-War or the FRPP Boss block. That's a tick over 3K, plus finish machining. Add in the rotating assembly, decent heads, high-RPM valvetrain, engineer the FEAD stuff and then all the small parts, and by my math, you wind up between $10K and $11K in the engine and accessories. Yes, you could do it on the cheap, trying to "trick" an Explorer ECU into managing a race motor, and running factory injection bits, but the hard-parts savings will rapidly be eaten up in the tuning and fiddling about. You might save $2K by going that route, but you'd be left with a lash-up full of potential compromises. It's one thing if you already have a 302-based injected motor to begin with, but starting from scratch is a bit more expensive.

Re-bopping the 4.6 3V is the second option. We know the factory bottom end is plenty stout if you keep it N/A and don't spin the piss out of it. I honestly don't want to rev this thing much past 6500-6800RPM, and asking the engine to deliver 350-360 to the wheels isn't all THAT stressful. If I freshened up the stroker motor, it's a combo that is known to deliver 390+ HP, and I would have to de-tune it to get it within my desired parameters. On the plus side, stroker motors in general tend to be torquey things, but I don't know if I can actually pull 40HP out of the thing without going to a restrictor plate of some sort, which sort of negates the advantage over the Coyote. If, on the other hand, I transplanted to the top end of the engine onto my stock bottom end, I think I would be pretty close to being in the HP/TQ range that I'm targeting. The real question is what the cost on those parts would be, and for that, as well as details of exactly what the parts are, I'm just patiently waiting.

Finally, the last option, the Coyote. Cost of the crate motor PLUS the ECU kit, PLUS the alternator, PLUS the power steering pump bracket runs roughly what just the Windsor block and EFI setup would cost. If you were to buy new for the 3V, the cost of CNC heads, cams, phaser kits, intake manifold, T-body, and hardware is bumping up to 50% of the cost of a complete new engine. With the Coyote, I can get machined restrictor bungs for $50/ea, so I could pretty easily buy 4-5 of them and get the dyno tuning done in one shot.

Yes, it is heavier and more massive than either the 3V or Windsor motors, but not by all THAT much, and unless there are other compelling factors, I would rather have an understressed stock-level engine than one that's wound up as tight as Rosie O'Donnel with a plate glass window between her and the dessert buffet...

Really, for me, it's coming down to a pure matter of dollars and cents. If it'll cost me more than 50% of the cost of a Coyote to pull a measly 35HP more out of my 3V, I'll probably just hold off and do the swap. That would also allow me to pull the restrictor and ballast, swap tunes, and run in ST2 (8.0:1 power/weight), OR pull the ABS harness on the car and run AI at an 8.5:1 power/weight. That gives me some options.

Again, I did look at the Windsor, but to do one right, the cost is well north of what I'm willing to spend. If the used 3V stuff comes in at the right price, that's a contender, but at the moment, I'm leaning towards the Coyote just for the sake of ease. THAT would be an off-season project, and would also depend on exactly how much work I can book between now and then as well.

 

[sheizasosay]

I wonder how much power you would make with his stroker block and heads with your stock cam with and without a race gas tune.

That's a pretty sweet offer that friend of yours offered you. I wouldn't pass that up personally, but I'm sure you will hit your goal.

 

[2008 V6]

Dave – Your logic & numbers are right on. Looks like its time to start selling sicker space. Racing isn’t cheap.
I truly hope you find a solution that is financially feasible.

$$$, Dedication, Ruthlessness and Creative Rule Interpretation usually bests youth and skill.

What usually beats everything else is mucho, MUCHO, $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ - Unfortunately I don’t have $$$, youth or skill any more – I’m screwed.