the cause of #8

[CPRsm]

When did the oak processor become a stand alone unit ?

An ECU does not have to be a stand alone unit to be sequential injection. Sequential EFI has been around longer than stand alones.

 

[BAKnBLK2010]

Fine then. I would think at the point Ford 'fixed' the problem, max and min standards were developed for tuning purposes and that aftermarket tunes would have been part of the equation. After all, they developed and built this engine to be upgraded with a supercharger and even designed the heads for later use of direct injection.

As a matter of fact (according to Ford engineers) the weak link to this engine is the connecting rods as they recommend changing them to a set of Manely's when a supercharger is added.

You know, it's hard for me to fathom that the engineers on this project would have no conpunction to hide a problem. After all, these guys, for the most part are hot rod nuts themselves. If there is some sort of problem with this engine, they would be the first people that would want to know about it and fix it, not try to hide it.

As I've said in other posts in other forums on subjects like these, no engine is bullet proof and people will find ways to blow them up without intention to do so.

The problem we are speaking of really isn't a problem when you think about it. They found out that a couple of cylinders didn't do well early on and they made adjustments to the factory calibrations to remedy the problem. If you never put an aftermarket tune on the car you won't have anything to worry about because as far as we know there haven't been any factory tuned cars with the #8 problem and you can run 87 octane fuel with the factory calibration if you choose to. I don't think they are hiding anything. I do think they are a pretty smart bunch of guys though.

 

[lito]

The tune is the only thing that can really be changed. Ford wouldn't go back and re-design an intake to fix the problem when they can easily and safely adjust the tune. Solid cams in push rod motors you can change the lash to hurt a cyl and that would accomplish the same thing, but hurt power as well. I see a lot of distribution problems with carbed intakes and it's not as easy to fix like it with sequential EFI. Blowing thru a carb making goo power will show some problems. But these intake only have to flow air, not air and fuel.

I quote and ask again

Because the spark plug will tell all. The factory tune in this car favored 6 and 8. Problem is many tuners don't pull spark plugs anymore.

You say that the factory tune in that car favored 6 and 8. You say all is in the tune?

 

[SD07GT]

An ECU does not have to be a stand alone unit to be sequential injection. Sequential EFI has been around longer than stand alones.

so what year did this start because because it has always been bank one or bank two only for A/F adjustments and timing ...just like on my 04 cobra ....stand alone was the only way to tune each individual cylinder for a/f and tining ? If that was the case you would need 8 a/f gagues in your car . That why everbody just has one gage for bank one and some guys do have two A/F gauges for one @ two.

 

[BAKnBLK2010]

so what year did this start because because it has always been bank one or bank two only for A/F adjustments and timing ...just like on my 04 cobra ....stand alone was the only way to tune each individual cylinder for a/f and tining ? If that was the case you would need 8 a/f gagues in your car . That why everbody just has one gage for bank one and some guys do have two A/F gauges for one @ two.

A lot has changed since 2004. The new Copperhead PCM in the Mustang allows for adjusting both spark and fuel on each individual cylinder. The car also has wide band front 02 sensors which has never been done on a factory Mustang. Pretty cool stuff to say the least.

 

[CPRsm]

You say that the factory tune in that car favored 6 and 8. You say all is in the tune?

To the best of my knowledge yes. I would imagine they did it on purpose with the tune. Since everyone is having a problem with #8 cyl, and the stock tune shows the least amount of heat in it, makes me think they know about it.

If that was the case you would need 8 a/f gagues in your car . That why everbody just has one gage for bank one and some guys do have two A/F gauges for one @ two.

Not at all. That's why you read spark plugs. Spark plugs are more accurate than widebands. A wide band reading is nothing more than an average of all the cyl's, but only AFR's. You can have "good" AFR's and too much timing. Wideband can't tell you it's too much timing. Something to think about as well is timing effects how the AFR's are read. You can change how a wideband reads with timing, without not touching the fuel side of things at all. There is a bit more to getting the AFR to 12.5 with "X" amount of timing.

 

[lito]

To the best of my knowledge yes. I would imagine they did it on purpose with the tune. Since everyone is having a problem with #8 cyl, and the stock tune shows the least amount of heat in it, makes me think they know about it.

There are other variables that will affect cylinder variance than just a tune, like the injectors, for example, actually in the calibrations I've seen so far #8 is not the one that has the bigger correction of all.

 

[BAKnBLK2010]

There are other variables that will affect cylinder variance than just a tune, like the injectors, for example, actually in the calibrations I've seen so far #8 is not the one that has the bigger correction of all.

OK usually you seem like you know what you are talking about when it comes to tuning but this injector statement doesn't make sense to me. Can you share what you mean by that?

 

[CPRsm]

There are other variables that will affect cylinder variance than just a tune, like the injectors, for example, actually in the calibrations I've seen so far #8 is not the one that has the bigger correction of all.

I see what you meant. I think the cyl temp difference is inherent to the engine itself. Ford designed a tune to correct it. I think their tune shows they were favoring the cyl's they knew were hotter.

Injectors can cause a cyl difference. But I don't think that is a constant that can be attributed to any of this. It could take out one engine, but can't see it being the problem with all of them. Coolant flow, intake design, header design, etc. Something that is the same with all of them. I haven't seen any corrections for PW on the injectors yet, but by looking at the plugs 6 looked like it was more than 8. I only did the driver bank though. But I think you hit on a problem that's in my head. No injector variance, just plug in the value for "X" injector, and watch the AFR. Now to me if 6 looked colder than 8, why the hell is 8 blowing up. Will take another look tomorrow. Having trouble getting a tune to load in a 2011 here. but when I do, off to the dyno to check the plugs with a canned tune.

 

[lito]

OK usually you seem like you know what you are talking about when it comes to tuning but this injector statement doesn't make sense to me. Can you share what you mean by that?

You take two injectors of a same batch and measure them and they will flow differently, there is a tolerance spec specified by Ford.

I see what you meant. I think the cyl temp difference is inherent to the engine itself. Ford designed a tune to correct it. I think their tune shows they were favoring the cyl's they knew were hotter.

Injectors can cause a cyl difference. But I don't think that is a constant that can be attributed to any of this. It could take out one engine, but can't see it being the problem with all of them. Coolant flow, intake design, header design, etc. Something that is the same with all of them. I haven't seen any corrections for PW on the injectors yet, but by looking at the plugs 6 looked like it was more than 8. I only did the driver bank though. But I think you hit on a problem that's in my head. No injector variance, just plug in the value for "X" injector, and watch the AFR. Now to me if 6 looked colder than 8, why the hell is 8 blowing up. Will take another look tomorrow. Having trouble getting a tune to load in a 2011 here. but when I do, off to the dyno to check the plugs with a canned tune.

I am not saying that the injector is causing this, it would be crazier to think that by chance all the lowest flowing but within spec injector falls in #8. I am just saying that one can't attribute what you saw to "The factory tune in this car favored 6 and 8".

There are fueling per cylinder corrections, and not just a single multiplier and #8 is not as corrected as others as one may think after hearing all this trouble.

 

[CPRsm]

I am not saying that the injector is causing this, it would be crazier to think that by chance all the lowest flowing but within spec injector falls in #8.

Ah ok, we're on the same page then.

I am just saying that one can't attribute what you saw to "The factory tune in this car favored 6 and 8".

What fueling corrections are you seeing ? I haven't looked yet. What do you think attributed to it ? It's definitely colder cyl's compared to 5 and 7. If it was poor air flow, we could see the same thing if all the inj corrections where even.....same amount of fuel to all, but less mass to those cyl would cause them to be cold. But then if any of that where true, I don't think 8 would be the problem child. Seeing them colder, and with number 8 makes me think Ford had fatten it up/pulled timing. Fell free to add, thinking out loud here.

 

[lito]

What fueling corrections are you seeing ? I haven't looked yet. What do you think attributed to it ? It's definitely colder cyl's compared to 5 and 7. If it was poor air flow, we could see the same thing if all the inj corrections where even.....same amount of fuel to all, but less mass to those cyl would cause them to be cold. But then if any of that where true, I don't think 8 would be the problem child. Seeing them colder, and with number 8 makes me think Ford had fatten it up/pulled timing. Fell free to add, thinking out loud here.

There are per cylinder fuel multipliers, and a full table for each, quite complicated and something that would have needed quite some work to develop.

 

[DIB5.0]

I think every tuner is adjusting their tunes. Im sure in the end all tunes will be equal in most aspects. Lund re did my street tune to make is safer. Air Fuel its commanded Widebands it targets and corrects to +-1% of target which is .84 lambda. Spark is Safe. KS is stock.

 

[fdjizm]

Hmm, just for reference.
3v fuel rail...

I guess it would have better distribution?

 

[302]

If i'm not mistaken the 4v engines have always had a U shaped fuel rail. Someone correct me if i'm wrong.

 

[Black 5.0]

the design of the fuel rail is not going to contribute to a starvation issue. The fuel rail is pressurised uniformly. You get the same fuel and pressure at nuber 8 as you do at number one and every one inbeween. Only the fuel pressure, lack of fuel or a clog to the rail could come into play with starvation.

 

[Fallenauthority]

Yea I dont see the fuel rail design being an issue. If the rail is fed a certain pressure it will be the same across the whole rail.
You cant have say 40psi at the beginning of the rail and less than that at the end of the rail.

 

[RSKtakR]

Yea I dont see the fuel rail design being an issue. If the rail is fed a certain pressure it will be the same across the whole rail.
You cant have say 40psi at the beginning of the rail and less than that at the end of the rail.

Ummm YES it is an issue... at idle its no problem, however a WOT, keeping an equal amount of presure at 8 different points when the inlet for an the rails is at one end, the ends of the fuel rail WILL have a chance of petering out on cosntant fuel presure.

 

[Fallenauthority]

Do you have an idea how pressure works in an enclosed area such as a fuel rail? Lets make a number that the fuel rail pressure should be. We will say 40psi.
It is physically impossible to have 40psi of pressure at the injectors at the front of the rail and less pressure at the injectors at the back. Pressure is created by restriction or resistance in the path of flow.
The pressure at the front of the rail is created by the restriction of the end of the fuel rail where the fuel has nowhere to go but through an injector. Think about it.

 

[Bmr4life]

If it were an issue why would ford do it now?