Coyote Catastrophic Failure

[5PointOHNO]

^I'm with Mystic.

No BAP here and no window'd block (Lund Tuned).

 

[2c5s]

I have 47lbs, no bap, as per jon lund with my set up. I beat the breaks off my car so it can be done safely with no bap...just saying. Im not sure why it is so far fetched to believe it was a tune issue. There are prob 6-7 people on here that are good tuners. For every 6-7 there r 25 that are ok to suck balls. I have been thru this for 15 years owning/modding n have had combos that blow up from shitty tunes......built the same combo and had it tuned by a PRO who really specializes in these cars and it was fine. I don't know either party in this case but I think the op did a good job of just stating his case in the first post and then moving on to show destruction n build pics. All I know is like one of the only coyote blocks that I've seen that had a window in it, so something went drastically wrong and I don't think it was just not enough fuel.

How much boost and at what power level are you? Let's see a dyno graph.

 

[1950StangJump$]

I have 47lbs, no bap, as per jon lund with my set up. I beat the breaks off my car so it can be done safely with no bap...just saying. Im not sure why it is so far fetched to believe it was a tune issue. There are prob 6-7 people on here that are good tuners. For every 6-7 there r 25 that are ok to suck balls. I have been thru this for 15 years owning/modding n have had combos that blow up from shitty tunes......built the same combo and had it tuned by a PRO who really specializes in these cars and it was fine. I don't know either party in this case but I think the op did a good job of just stating his case in the first post and then moving on to show destruction n build pics. All I know is like one of the only coyote blocks that I've seen that had a window in it, so something went drastically wrong and I don't think it was just not enough fuel.

Good post. I think the OP did a good job explaining everything he experienced. All things considered, I think it's pretty clear there was a tune issue here, unless you're calling the OP a liar when he outlined his experiences (what he saw, heard, and felt while the tuner tried to dial things in).

I'm not sure why the OP bashing started, to be honest. Unless there are some biases for the tuner that we don't know about.

 

[sixohtofiveoh]

This thread looks like its going to get closed soon. This is the one thing that bugs me about this forum people will say this or that but never throw out good evidence supporting their case. Tuners blow up cars, customers blow up cars. Why are some people so offended by this?

 

[19COBRA93]

This thread looks like its going to get closed soon.

That doesn't happen here. We duke it out like real men.

 

[sixohtofiveoh]

That doesn't happen here. We duke it out like real men.

Well then sub'd

 

[05mustang_TT_charged]

that is insane to put a blower on a stock n/a fuel system and expect it to live past 7000rpm. are you nuts? i thought you were an engineer? i sure hope you dont do your job like you try to build cars, thats a recipe for disaster!
what company do you work for so I can avoid their products!

I hope you are joking. There are plenty of folks making the horsepower he was with the stock Coyote Mechanical Returnless fuel system. You obviously do not like the guy especially after you got a petty as talking about his profession and his wife. I believe this shows more of your true colors than the original poster and just reading this I am more inclined to believe what he has to say over you.

 

[lostsoul]

I think he was joking with the icon..

that said if you pay 400-500 for a damn tune it better be tits when it leaves.. I have seen tuners half ass things and spend maybe an hour or some that dont even drive it and goes into fail safe!..

I was dumb to try local tuners.. stick with the main ones.. many NOW will remote tune which is cool.

 

[Mystickeith50]

How much boost and at what power level are you? Let's see a dyno graph.

Boost is 9-10 n it made 59x at the wheels. I will post a graph for you as well. I was also specifically told for my use that a bap was NOT needed at all. Also u obviously have higher fuel demands being at 14lbs and using e85. Believe me...there are plenty of guys running 2.3s at that boost with no bap.

I hope you are joking. There are plenty of folks making the horsepower he was with the stock Coyote Mechanical Returnless fuel system. You obviously do not like the guy especially after you got a petty as talking about his profession and his wife. I believe this shows more of your true colors than the original poster and just reading this I am more inclined to believe what he has to say over you.

This

 

[2c5s]

Boost is 9-10 n it made 59x at the wheels. I will post a graph for you as well. I was also specifically told for my use that a bap was NOT needed at all. Also u obviously have higher fuel demands being at 14lbs and using e85. Believe me...there are plenty of guys running 2.3s at that boost with no bap.

The op says he made about 20 over his previous 600. So where's the cutoff for needing fuel??

I'm not basing my fuel system comments based on my current setup. I started out with the stock Roush tune and worked my way up, pulley by pulley, mod by mod. You guys are playing with fire.

 

[DTony]

I have spent a lot of time discussing the failure with the OP and comparing why mine has lived and his did not. Obviously he is convinced the tune caused this and I can certainly see his point of view.

One thing I think may play a major roll is the fuel system. I run a BAP and ID 72 injectors. I also run the same fuel (Shell 93) with Torco race gas additive. I have done hundreds of logs on the street and monitor AF and timing, and knock.

Another thing is I have an insanely conservative street tune. My street tune is locked at 13º timing and I leave it there. I never run the track tune on the street and when at the track the car goes through a complete cooldown before racing.

The true way to avoid another failure moving forward is the compare differences between a combo that lived and one that didnt. IMO 19º timing on pump gas, on a warm day, with smaller injectors and no BAP is right on the verge of disaster. One lean spike for whatever reason likely caused the problem.

On the same token, this single failure alone prompted me to speed up my plans for a stonger shortblock. I am now installing a Boss shortblock too. I know people get these stock short blocks to live for a while at 600 rwhp, some of us are lucky, some are not. They are all ticking time bombs when you start almost doubling the rwhp.

 

[KungFuHamster]

I have spent a lot of time discussing the failure with the OP and comparing why mine has lived and his did not. Obviously he is convinced the tune caused this and I can certainly see his point of view.

One thing I think may play a major roll is the fuel system. I run a BAP and ID 72 injectors. I also run the same fuel (Shell 93) with Torco race gas additive. I have dont hundreds of logs on the street and monitor AF and timing, and knock.

Another thing is I have an insanely conservative street tune. My street tune is locked at 13º timing and I leave it there. I never run the track tune on the street and when at the track the car goes through a complete cooldown before racing.

The true way to avoid another failure moving forward is the compare differences between a combo that lived and one that didnt. IMO 19º timing on pump gas, on a warm day, with smaller injectors and no BAP is right on the verge of disaster. One lean spike for whatever reason likely caused the problem.

On the same token, this single failure alone prompted me to speed up my plans for a stonger shortblock. I am now installing a Boss shortblock too. I know people get these stock short blocks to live for a while at 600 rwhp, some of us are lucky, some are not. They are all ticking time bombs when you start almost doubling the rwhp.

something you may want to consider....how much hp does it take to turn his Kenne Bell vs your Vortech?
i would think a 600 rwhp vortech would be making less crank hp than a 600 rwhp KB due to it taking less hp to actually turn the blower (assuming both blowers were making the same amount of boost)

just something to think about when discussing fuel requirements. That being said, when it comes to a boosted combination one should never skimp out on fuel system. I thought that was law. that was what my tuner told me waaay back in 02 and i never had any issues.

 

[blackgt87]

Fuck the comments about his decision not to run a BAP. Even if he was running out of fuel, any HALF ASSED tuner would/should realize that and stop pushing the damn car! That's why you PAY a tuner, to take care of things that you cannot. So, if he needed a BAP or any other fuel upgrades, that's the first thing this guy should have told him.

Also, let's not let this one get turned into a blame game. He came on here, respectably told his story and is giving some great info/pics on a re-build.

Someone asked if an Aeroforce monitors knock, it does not on these cars.

Exactly. And thanks for the info on the Aeroforce.

++++100000000000000

+1 lol

I for one have watched plenty of people ignore tuner advice and go right on their merry way. pop

I didn't ignore any advice. I did literally everything he asked, that's how I got here.

I have 47lbs, no bap, as per jon lund with my set up. I beat the breaks off my car so it can be done safely with no bap...just saying. Im not sure why it is so far fetched to believe it was a tune issue. There are prob 6-7 people on here that are good tuners. For every 6-7 there r 25 that are ok to suck balls. I have been thru this for 15 years owning/modding n have had combos that blow up from shitty tunes......built the same combo and had it tuned by a PRO who really specializes in these cars and it was fine. I don't know either party in this case but I think the op did a good job of just stating his case in the first post and then moving on to show destruction n build pics. All I know is like one of the only coyote blocks that I've seen that had a window in it, so something went drastically wrong and I don't think it was just not enough fuel.

+1

^I'm with Mystic.

No BAP here and no window'd block (Lund Tuned).

Boom.

Good post. I think the OP did a good job explaining everything he experienced. All things considered, I think it's pretty clear there was a tune issue here, unless you're calling the OP a liar when he outlined his experiences (what he saw, heard, and felt while the tuner tried to dial things in).

I'm not sure why the OP bashing started, to be honest. Unless there are some biases for the tuner that we don't know about.

DING DING DING. germanshepherd is a personal friend of the tuner Jeff Chambers. Jeff built and tuned his car, which is why he comes on here and tries to make this look like my fault.

Man, this is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY over the line IMO. Not cool AT ALL.

Agree.

This thread looks like its going to get closed soon. This is the one thing that bugs me about this forum people will say this or that but never throw out good evidence supporting their case. Tuners blow up cars, customers blow up cars. Why are some people so offended by this?

That doesn't happen here. We duke it out like real men.

That sounds like a good idea to me.

This German Sheperd dude has been doging the OP since he started posting here ...he's also stated things on here that arent fact but his perception of things I somehow doubt hes ever had a FI car in his life and is just talking out his ass

Another spot on comment.

Yeah way over the line, very uncalled for.

Agree.

I sure hope you know this guy and that was a joke...... If not, then you must know someone involved in this......... Either way that was way over the top..........

I don't know that guy from Adam. All I know is that I met DTony on this board, and we text info and questions back and forth sometimes. He's the one who told me germanshepherd is friends with Jeff and thats who built his car. It does appear that information I tell Tony makes its way back to Jeff and apparently this guy and his friends too. I caught on to this awhile back but I really don't care because I've told the truth all along. If people want to gossip that's on them.

I hope you are joking. There are plenty of folks making the horsepower he was with the stock Coyote Mechanical Returnless fuel system. You obviously do not like the guy especially after you got a petty as talking about his profession and his wife. I believe this shows more of your true colors than the original poster and just reading this I am more inclined to believe what he has to say over you.

Exactly. It never takes long for people who are full of shit to get exposed. It's pretty obvious that he is friends with Jeff, and doesn't like me coming on here and telling the TRUTH. I also think his intentions since he has posted on any of my threads was to piss me off. If I got pissed off every time some moron who didn't know what the fuck he was talking about said something stupid to me I'd have turned into the Hulk with ulcers a long time ago. I post on this board because people on here are pretty smart and they don't even come close to taking bullshit. Which is why nobody will give a fuck about this clown and I will move right on with my build thread.

I think he was joking with the icon..

that said if you pay 400-500 for a damn tune it better be tits when it leaves.. I have seen tuners half ass things and spend maybe an hour or some that dont even drive it and goes into fail safe!..

I was dumb to try local tuners.. stick with the main ones.. many NOW will remote tune which is cool.

Another point I made. My car was there for a week, it should have left perfect. Especially since that was something we discussed at length, driveability. I was dumb to try a local one too, I won't do that again. And again that doesn't have as much to do with the motor popping as it does with the tune being right. If my car ran awesome drove awesome and just let go, I would be much more receptive to the "you were making too much power and you had a little bad luck and your shit went boom." I just don't feel like that's what happened here.

That was WAY fucking out of line, GERMANSHEPERD, you are a fucking idiot!

+1

I have spent a lot of time discussing the failure with the OP and comparing why mine has lived and his did not. Obviously he is convinced the tune caused this and I can certainly see his point of view.

One thing I think may play a major roll is the fuel system. I run a BAP and ID 72 injectors. I also run the same fuel (Shell 93) with Torco race gas additive. I have dont hundreds of logs on the street and monitor AF and timing, and knock.

Another thing is I have an insanely conservative street tune. My street tune is locked at 13º timing and I leave it there. I never run the track tune on the street and when at the track the car goes through a complete cooldown before racing.

The true way to avoid another failure moving forward is the compare differences between a combo that lived and one that didnt. IMO 19º timing on pump gas, on a warm day, with smaller injectors and no BAP is right on the verge of disaster. One lean spike for whatever reason likely caused the problem.

On the same token, this single failure alone prompted me to speed up my plans for a stonger shortblock. I am now installing a Boss shortblock too. I know people get these stock short blocks to live for a while at 600 rwhp, some of us are lucky, some are not. They are all ticking time bombs when you start almost doubling the rwhp.

It was not on a warm day, and if it needed the injectors and BAP that should have shown on the AF logs.

What exactly causes a lean spike? Because I have never heard of that and if thats something that this car is going to do how can I prevent it or make the car safe for when it happens? Sounds to me like a "lean spike" is something a BAD TUNE would cause....

 

[blackgt87]

something you may want to consider....how much hp does it take to turn his Kenne Bell vs your Vortech?
i would think a 600 rwhp vortech would be making less crank hp than a 600 rwhp KB due to it taking less hp to actually turn the blower (assuming both blowers were making the same amount of boost)

just something to think about when discussing fuel requirements. That being said, when it comes to a boosted combination one should never skimp out on fuel system. I thought that was law. that was what my tuner told me waaay back in 02 and i never had any issues.

Again I don't feel like I "skimped" on anything. I will explain this again... The KB kit came with those injectors I didn't pick them out, and it did not come with a BAP. I bolted their kit on an otherwise stock car, and the only thing my car had that was different from a bone stock car was no cats. And I told Kenne Bell that and they said the kit will work fine. I get it tuned for the fucking rear o2's and idle and here we are.



I think the damage to my engine was not from some simple aspect of tuning like ignition timing or air fuel ratio. I think it was from Jeff being unfamiliar with the drive by wire settings of the coyote. He made comments about the effective area of the throttle body in KB's tune and how it was double what a normal one would be. He made comments about not understanding their DBW settings and saying "they do some goofy stuff" and that he would have to study them and figure out why they did what they did. That was days before I took my car in so I had assumed (I know right) that he had a grip on that stuff when I dropped my car off. The surge, the not launching at the track, the fact that it was slower than KB's tune, and the subsequent damage to the engine IMO are due to the drive by wire settings. Tonys car is boosted before the throttle body not draw through like mine so its totally different. Unless I logged the surge or logged the bog at the track I have no idea if the car was dangerously lean during those times or not. I know that is partially my fault. But I was caught way off guard because I expected my car to be faster and run perfect when I got it back. I had no idea until I talked to another tuner that the "fall on its face" thing at the track could be the ECU pulling fuel for torque management if the tune wasn't done properly. Like I said I could have done things better, I could have logged it more or not taken it to the track until it was perfect. But I had no idea those driveability issues could be dangerous. Thats why you pay a professional tuner to take care of that aspect for you. In my case I picked someone who was simply not cut out to tune this combo.

At least I learned a lot from this, I'm not just slapping it back together and heading down the same road.

 

[DTony]

It was not on a warm day, and if it needed the injectors and BAP that should have shown on the AF logs.

What exactly causes a lean spike? Because I have never heard of that and if thats something that this car is going to do how can I prevent it or make the car safe for when it happens? Sounds to me like a "lean spike" is something a BAD TUNE would cause....

I thought it was a warm day...upper 70's or so. Maybe I am wrong.

You need to log the car to watch for lean areas across the rpm range. I log almost every pass at the track watching for something that can cause problems. If I see something I dont like I email the log to Jeff.

There is no way your car was detonating on the dyno, he would have never let it leave like that. But real world scenarios need to be logged and tweaked.

FWIW, I am friends with German Shepard and have talked with him about your car many times. When yours let go I was concerned about mine. I never once made fun of you or your situation but have discussed in detail your problems. I did not consider it proprietary information since you openly post it on this forum. My conversations with him revolved soley around trying to understand why your car broke and avoid breaking mine.

You may not like hearing it, but you did have some influence on this problem. You know if something is not right, don't beat on it. I am willing to bet no one runs a SC on a stock motor with 19º timing, 10 lbs of boost, and on pump gas.

There are Lund guys that have had motors break too. Shit happens and you have to move on. I know you are building a better combo now and should be ok. But at some point you have to take a look at some of the other factors that definitely played a roll in this failure rather than denying them and soley placing the blame on the tuner. This is just how I see it, hopefully moving forward you don't have any other issues like this.

 

[blackgt87]

I thought it was a warm day...upper 70's or so. Maybe I am wrong.

You need to log the car to watch for lean areas across the rpm range. I log almost every pass at the track watching for something that can cause problems. If I see something I dont like I email the log to Jeff.

There is no way your car was detonating on the dyno, he would have never let it leave like that. But real world scenarios need to be logged and tweaked.

FWIW, I am friends with German Shepard and have talked with him about your car many times. When yours let go I was concerned about mine. I never once made fun of you or your situation but have discussed in detail your problems. I did not consider it proprietary information since you openly post it on this forum. My conversations with him revolved soley around trying to understand why your car broke and avoid breaking mine.

You may not like hearing it, but you did have some influence on this problem. You know if something is not right, don't beat on it. I am willing to bet no one runs a SC on a stock motor with 19º timing, 10 lbs of boost, and on pump gas.

There are Lund guys that have had motors break too. Shit happens and you have to move on. I know you are building a better combo now and should be ok. But at some point you have to take a look at some of the other factors that definitely played a roll in this failure rather than denying them and soley placing the blame on the tuner. This is just how I see it, hopefully moving forward you don't have any other issues like this.

Kenne Bell does, and their tune lasted on my car for a long time. Jeff didn't even change AF ratios from Kenne Bell (or if he did it was tiny) or ignition timing. He changed cam timing and built his tune off a different strategy and used his own DBW settings. I still don't think the cam timing would add danger, so that leaves the DBW settings and extremely complicated torque management of the copperhead ecu. Which is where I think the tuner failed me.

And if you think I am denying other factors and placing the blame solely on the tuner you aren't reading my posts.

 

[DTony]

I know KB runs that much timing. But from everything I read (and I am certainly no expert) that is a lot for our stock motors on pump gas.

I will not speculate any more about your engine failure, I was just tossing my thoughts out there.
I am looking forward to actaully seeing your new combo at the track and maybe getting some side by side vids. That will be allot more fun.

 

[blackgt87]

There is no way your car was detonating on the dyno, he would have never let it leave like that.

I had to make another post just to quote this. This REALLY pisses me off. You have no idea what he did, and you cannot say "he would never let it leave like that". Would you say he would let it leave with the worse part throttle surge ever? It would be literally impossible to transition the car from vacuum to boost at anything besides WOT and not feel it. There is NO WAY he drove my car and didn't feel it. Which means he flat out lied about driving my car for two days, or flat out lied and said the car ran good.

Please don't make comments about what he would do and would never do, because he has already done things to the contrary of your obviously glowing review of him. And that has nothing to do with the blown motor or how much timing or fuel system. It's flat out bullshit.

 

[blackgt87]

I know KB runs that much timing. But from everything I read (and I am certainly no expert) that is a lot for our stock motors on pump gas.

I will not speculate any more about your engine failure, I was just tossing my thoughts out there.
I am looking forward to actaully seeing your new combo at the track and maybe getting some side by side vids. That will be allot more fun.

I'm not saying its not a lot, from what you and Jeff told me it's a ton of timing. From what other tuners have told me its not out of the realm, but def on the high side for pump gas.

You can speculate all you want, everyone else does. I welcome anybodys thoughts. I look forward to my new combo too lol, driving my car next to anything that moves will be a lot more fun than this shit lol.

 

[gtmiller1001]

Fucking guilty until proven innocent I guess...

Keep up the thread and the tactful responses OP, there are alot of us that want to see the project all the way though, not hear speculation about what the tuner may or may not have done, especially when there isn't any REAL way to prove it.

Haters gonna hate!