TaylorGT's AutoX Progress Thread

[oldVOR]

2012 GT....Sold!
2002 C5, MCS 2WNR TT2's, coilover conversion, 18x11 forgestars, really big tires, engine stuff, aero is planned, etc

So, having had a properly setup GT and moving on to a 'Vette, what would you recommend to those of us looking to autox and having not yet dumped a load of funds into our Mustang's; stick with the idea of a heavy pony car that doesn't seem to fit into class structures or go with the 'Vette that appears to do more and do it easier?

 

[csamsh]

So, having had a properly setup GT and moving on to a 'Vette, what would you recommend to those of us looking to autox and having not yet dumped a load of funds into our Mustang's; stick with the idea of a heavy pony car that doesn't seem to fit into class structures or go with the 'Vette that appears to do more and do it easier?

Not completely derail the thread, but, the short answer is "it depends."

Is the C5 faster, and does it have more potential to be fast? Yes.

But, gotta remember Rule No. 1 of cars- everything affects everything else. There are sacrifices.

Truck and trailer becomes a necessity if you want race tires...you're not going to be able to fill up a corvette with everything you'll need for a track weekend, like you can with a mustang:

The interior on a corvette is shit. Not much more to say than that.

Everything is more expensive for a corvette. I don't know if there are economies of scale at play, if the corvette market will pay more, or what, but everything is more expensive.

No backseat

The corvette is harder to drive. Higher limits, less time to recover.

The coyote engine is...I'm about to blaspheme...better than the LS if you don't want a ton of NA power. The coyote makes power everywhere without radical cams. To get coyote power out of an LS1, you need a cam that makes low speeds annoying, and makes you need to shift more (in my short experience)

Also...the mustang now fits into class structures rather well IMO. Both STP and ESP are great fits (assuming the S550 doesn't obliterate everything). So, decide whether you need your car to do anything besides autocross, and, if the answer is no, and you have a truck, or don't mind buying a truck, or want to run STU (which is probably what I'd do if I was starting with a fresh C5), then maybe you want a corvette.

Be aware- there is just as much, maybe more, straight up JUNK in the corvette aftermarket as there is the mustang- just because "that's the part that we've always run" gets advertised heavily, don't just accept it without giving it a good analysis, or having someone who knows more than you and whom you trust give it a good look.

 

[modernbeat]

So, having had a properly setup GT and moving on to a 'Vette, what would you recommend to those of us looking to autox and having not yet dumped a load of funds into our Mustang's; stick with the idea of a heavy pony car that doesn't seem to fit into class structures or go with the 'Vette that appears to do more and do it easier?

If you are looking for good competition and reasonable costs to upgrade the car, stick with the S197.

The Corvettes and Mustangs either are, or are about to be, in different classes for SCCA Solo. With the newly proposed STP class there is finally a decent home for the S197 at every prep rung of the class ladder.

If all you want to do is fart around in a car, buy a Z06 C5 and don't make a single mod to it. Or if you want to compete in TT2 with the best performance per dollar, do what Mark did and start with the less expensive C5 and go from there.

For autocross use the Corvettes are easy in Stock (Street) class. But prepping them for any of the other classes tends to be much more difficult, often hampering the performance if you are not careful about what you do to the car.

 

[Mark Aubele]

I have had both ('01 C5Z06 and '14 GT), hillclimbed and tracked both, and I actually prefer the S197. Especially for a street car. Full disclosure, I had a pretty high mileage Z06 example and bought the Mustang new, so obviously it isn't exactly a fair comparison.

I really don't think there is as much of a performance difference between the two as some think. A well setup S197 obviously doesn't have the potential of the C5, but all things considered the S197 is one hell of a jack of all trades performance car.

I did have some issues with the Z06 I never got resolved that really made me hate the car (ABS), and the cars are massive piles of shit which makes it pretty hard to enjoy when you aren't on a track.

 

[claudermilk]

but all things considered the S197 is one hell of a jack of all trades performance car.

There's the key. Many of us have to use the car for multiple purposes, so this ability is quite valuable. Myself as an example: I'm taking the kid seats out of the back tomorrow morning to make room to install the 4-point rollbar. A little more time involved to transform from kid-hauler DD to ass-hauler track rat, but it can do it.

Much as people bash on the S197 interior (and I'm coming from living in a base '13), it's pretty darn nice really. I've never been very fond of Chevy's interiors and the 'vette should get better than it does. Bad place to pinch pennies IMHO.

 

[Boaisy]

Especially if you are talking about the C5 interior. That is definitely the age where the plastic would rattle/creek, and other unwanted noises would come into play.

 

[csamsh]

Bad place to pinch pennies IMHO.

I'm rather happy that pennies are pinched there....C7's are 3500lb+ pigs with nice interior...my C5 is 3050 pounds with a center stack that doesn't really fit that great.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Siding with Mark here . . .

A performance car bought mainly for that performance doesn't need a flashy interior with all soft touch surfaces and fancy styling. My '08 GT (Premium) has a nicer interior than I need, given that when I'm in the car I'm looking out the windshield and when I'm not I don't see the car at all.


Norm

 

[2013DIBGT]

my C5 is 3050 pounds with a center stack that doesn't really fit that great.

I can't hate a Chebby too much with a 3050 curb weight. Looks like you already replaced the one piece that shows the most cheapness and that's the seats.

 

[Mark Aubele]

I literally couldn't drive mine with the stock seats. They were the most uncomfortable seats I have ever sat in.

Mine was 2980 with a chromoly Pfadt rollbar and 1 piece seat. No clue how it was so light.

 

[csamsh]

I literally couldn't drive mine with the stock seats. They were the most uncomfortable seats I have ever sat in.

Mine was 2980 with a chromoly Pfadt rollbar and 1 piece seat. No clue how it was so light.

Z06's start around 3050-3100, so you didn't have that far to go.

My Z51 starts heavier than that...gotta rustle up a lexan rear hatch now...

 

[TaylorGT]

UPDATE 7.3.15: Corner Balancing

Well, pulled the wheels off last night and disconnected the end links and reset the coilovesr follownig the process suggested earlier in this thread. Wow what a difference. The coilovers are both set at the same height and I'm dead level on both sides at 26.5" from ground to fender. It's still sitting low in front for track use but I'll adjust that later. I'm so happy to have this thing even on both sides on the coilovers.

On another note, what a difference "settleing" the suspension makes. When I first set the coilovers even and put the car on the ground I was dissapointed that one side was still sitting lower even though the coils were identical. Rolled the car about 4 feet forward and backwards and remeasured and I was dead level.

Adjustable end links are a must in the near future for the car.

 

[TaylorGT]

Got a private testing session scheduled at the local track next week. I'm stoked I can finally dial in the suspension a bit. Wish I had my wheels sold so I could have had my track set.

As much as I can run from 8-3pm for $150 and I'm splitting that cost with my brother.

 

[TaylorGT]

Well as I mentioned above I had my private practice session this weekend at our local track. It's not a big course, primarily for karting but the Corvette club uses it every year and it provides enough excitement to test and tune the suspension. I ran this course almost exactly a year ago and ran a 43.9. The car at that time was mostly stock lowered on H&R super sports, Koni str.t front struts, stock rear shocks, and GT500 axle back.

Practice Day 7.18.15
Got to the track first thing in the morning, spent some time getting the track cleaned up from a massive storm system we had a few nights before. We got our tent put up and both the cars prepped, and then it started raining which was not in any of the forecasts. After 3 hours, we were able to get out on the track after sweeping some puddles off the corners and straights.

I don't have an expensive lap timing system, I've been using the Track Addict app by HP Tuners and using GPS. So the times may not be 100% accurate but it gave us some bit of feeling of our runs. The goal for the day was to practice and get the car prepped for Gateway Autox in STL which is a NASA-X event that was being held the following day, 7.19.15. However, it ended up being cancelled due to severe weather.

Hardparked by Taylor Hockman, on Flickr

The first wide open pass in the car I ran a 41.04. So I shaved 3.9 seconds off since last year which was exciting. I had left the dampening soft from street driving so I stiffened the front almost all the way (2 clicks from completely stiff) and set rear to about 50% which greatly improved a lot of the understeer issues I noticed on the first pass. The next passes I was averaging 39 seconds. We continued to run through out the day. It was a blistering 98 degrees actually temperature with an index of 106 and all the midwest humidity you could ask for after the morning rain. The owner of the track let me stay as long as we needed, so we left a lot of time in between runs to let things cool down in the engine bay (I need cooling mods).

In the Pit by Taylor Hockman, on Flickr

Track Day by Taylor Hockman, on Flickr

I do have a few videos from the day. There were a couple major outcomes of the day for me. When I first started getting into this sport, I got some great advice to stick with street tires until I had enough seat time and feel for them that I knew I was pushing them beyond their limits. Street tires "talk" to you more throughout a run and give you audible tips when you're beyond the limits. This was the first time out in the car I actually felt like I was pushing the tires beyond their limits, and hearing it. I have had high hopes of selling these 20" wheels and getting a set of 18x11 forgestars from Vorshlag however I've had a hard time getting them sold. If I can't, I will likely pick up a set of 18x10 SVE drifts with a 200TW tire when time and money allow and keeping the 20s for daily driving/shows. I also am in need of brake upgrades. I have upgraded fluid, but I'm still experiencing brake fade. I will either get new rotors/pads/lines for the stock brakes or upgrade to either some Brembo's or Stoptechas. Again, time and money as a factor.

Seats. I want race seats. I spent too much time fighting keeping myself in the seat at this event. The first time I ever really noticed it. Anyways. My fastest time ended up being 36.72 which is 7.2 seconds faster than my previous time. I've seen vehicles do low 35s on this track so that's my goal for next time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drpIN1Sppng

 

[CobraRed]

Great thread and great update!
Can't believe I missed the fact that you were putting in XTA's at the same time as me in a different thread.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122377

They're not bad at all, huh? Mine took a ton of time to settle and had some ride height variance issues at first as well. I also noticed how it's weird the rear doesn't lower a ton (2 fingers is fine by me, just surprising). BTW, they are essentially KW V2's not V1's.

Awesome that you got that course for yourself for testing - i've only been able to use quiet canyon roads.
I too would really recommend a larger adjustable sway bar and adjustable links. These springs aren't crazy stiff so the bar lets you simulate some more of that when adjusted. I'm settled on 10 clicks from soft front and 5 rear after playing around with it.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Taylor,

1) NICE LAP!! Great job keeping those tires talking all the way around the corners. If I were in your shoes, I would start focusing on earlier and harder throttle given that you're hitting your marks cleanly. Think in terms of being angry every time you can't be at WOT, and see if that gets you a little more aggressive corner-exit. You weren't pussing out, by any stretch, but that would be the next thing to work on, IMO. Keep 'em screaming all the way to track-out!

2) If you want that low-35 lap, you'll find it in the tires, with no other changes. Rotational inertia of the 20" is pretty enormous, and you'll profit greatly dropping to 18" wheels, PLUS the extra grip of either a hot street tire or a baby R-compound. Don't be in too much of a hurry to get your first hit of Purple Crack, though, that stuff is addictive!

3) When you're going for your 18" wheels, my advice is "buy once, cry once." If you don't have the cabbage on hand for the Forgestars (that you apparently want eventually), then either hold off and run the 20s as long as you can stand it, or just bite the bullet, skip a few beers and a steak or two, and then pull the trigger on the F14s. If you buy the SVE Drifts, and then later get the F14s, you need to mentally add the "money lost" on the SVEs and rubber for them to the price of the Forgestars. Say the Drifts and rubber cost you $1500. You use up half the rubber, sell the set for $800. Your net cost to "rent" them is $700. Add that to the price of the Forgestars, and they don't seem that cool anymore... OR, just go to where you want to be, skip the middle step, and be money ahead in the long run.

4) Brakes: Read my brake primer (sticky at the top of the front page of this forum) for more info, but the real question I have for you is exactly what is happening when you say "brake fade?" Soft pedal? Hard pedal, just won't stop? The 14" Brembo upgrade is a really hard one to beat for the price, but the StopTech setup is pretty sweet, as well. Honestly, though, the stock PBR-style brakes work just fine with the right pads and fluids, as long as you duct them. Do you get fade on AX courses, or just on the big tracks?

 

[TaylorGT]

Great thread and great update!
Can't believe I missed the fact that you were putting in XTA's at the same time as me in a different thread.

http://www.s197forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122377

They're not bad at all, huh? Mine took a ton of time to settle and had some ride height variance issues at first as well. I also noticed how it's weird the rear doesn't lower a ton (2 fingers is fine by me, just surprising). BTW, they are essentially KW V2's not V1's.

Awesome that you got that course for yourself for testing - i've only been able to use quiet canyon roads.
I too would really recommend a larger adjustable sway bar and adjustable links. These springs aren't crazy stiff so the bar lets you simulate some more of that when adjusted. I'm settled on 10 clicks from soft front and 5 rear after playing around with it.

Ha thats crazy, not to many guys are running them just yet but I personally love them. I had originally planned on Ground Controls but I think this was the best decision dollar to value. I definitely noticed the settling, had to make adjustments after a week. I honestly plan to take out the adjustment ring and sit the springs directly on the collar for the desired stance. Ill be sure to give your build a follow!

Taylor,

1) NICE LAP!! Great job keeping those tires talking all the way around the corners. If I were in your shoes, I would start focusing on earlier and harder throttle given that you're hitting your marks cleanly. Think in terms of being angry every time you can't be at WOT, and see if that gets you a little more aggressive corner-exit. You weren't pussing out, by any stretch, but that would be the next thing to work on, IMO. Keep 'em screaming all the way to track-out!

Thanks for the response! I love this kind of feedback! I've had a few others also talk about my corner entry speeds. I come in fast. A few have suggested slower in and faster out. I ran the first half of my runs shifting between 1st and 2nd gear. My faster laps I started staying in second for the entire course, however since my car is a 3.31 car it could sometimes be a dog out of the tighter corners. Especially the final turn (T9). The next time I'll definitely try to get on the throttle earlier after the corner. This video was my fastest lap. I hit a curb on one corner and you'll hear me spin coming out of turn 9 before the sprint to the finish. I really feel like a better treadler tire would help me. These are Falken FK453s which I believe are 300AA. Gross.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h0aXmHD3NY

2) If you want that low-35 lap, you'll find it in the tires, with no other changes. Rotational inertia of the 20" is pretty enormous, and you'll profit greatly dropping to 18" wheels, PLUS the extra grip of either a hot street tire or a baby R-compound. Don't be in too much of a hurry to get your first hit of Purple Crack, though, that stuff is addictive!

I took note. For a street tire on my last auto x I was on Hankook Ventus V12s which was 280 and they did great. Some have suggested RS3s? I don't know how extreme to go on a track tire.

3) When you're going for your 18" wheels, my advice is "buy once, cry once." If you don't have the cabbage on hand for the Forgestars (that you apparently want eventually), then either hold off and run the 20s as long as you can stand it, or just bite the bullet, skip a few beers and a steak or two, and then pull the trigger on the F14s. If you buy the SVE Drifts, and then later get the F14s, you need to mentally add the "money lost" on the SVEs and rubber for them to the price of the Forgestars. Say the Drifts and rubber cost you $1500. You use up half the rubber, sell the set for $800. Your net cost to "rent" them is $700. Add that to the price of the Forgestars, and they don't seem that cool anymore... OR, just go to where you want to be, skip the middle step, and be money ahead in the long run.

I think thats some solid advice. I had F14s once already, but they were 19x9.5/10. I honestly regret selling them. At the time, I didn't think I was going to get serious about track/autocross events. I liked how they looked, and the finishes available. The 18x11 would be nice, but I would likely want to run a tire that wasn't overly expensive and easier to replace. So I was thinking about 285s. So then I tell myself I really don't need the 18x11s (its jut for bragging rights really at that point) and a basic pair of SVE drifts in black would do the trick. They are going to be covered in brake dust anyways, right? I don't know. Unless i sell my current wheels it probably won't happen soon. I'll be on these 20s for a while.

Option C is even more economical, I've been thinking about picking up some 18x9.5 07-09 GT500 wheels for track wheels.

4) Brakes: Read my brake primer (sticky at the top of the front page of this forum) for more info, but the real question I have for you is exactly what is happening when you say "brake fade?" Soft pedal? Hard pedal, just won't stop? The 14" Brembo upgrade is a really hard one to beat for the price, but the StopTech setup is pretty sweet, as well. Honestly, though, the stock PBR-style brakes work just fine with the right pads and fluids, as long as you duct them. Do you get fade on AX courses, or just on the big tracks?

I'm honestly going to try to explain this as best as I can because I'm a total newbie I may be mis-diagnosing. What I noticed was that by the last few turns I was really having to stop on the brake to get the car to slow down to the point where I sometimes worried it wouldn't stop. I didn't have that lost confidence in the first 3-5 turns. This may be a separate issue but even when staying in one gear even my clutch peddle would be like 3/4 of the way pressed down and I'd have to pull it out with my foot. Both of those issues are what shut me down when I could have ran for another hour or two that day.

I promised myself at the last event I'd keep the car off the AX course and tracks until I got new brakes. But when I got these new ST XTA coilovers I couldn't help myself. This is bad to admit, but my brakes are bone stock with 41k miles all OEM. My plan is to get some Motul fluid, and stainless lines. I honestly think if I upgraded the rotors and pads these stock spec brakes would do fine. Especially since I plan to mainly do AX courses.

Either way, I'm off to read your thread. Thanks for the feedback!

Here's my fastest lap, the app started recording video a bit late:

 

[claudermilk]

Yep, it sounds like you need to do fluid and pads for sure. The SS lines are a help (I did mine), but not as big as fluid and pads.

Remember, not all tires are created equal. Pilot SS are 300 treadwear and very popular. Those will likely be my next set of street tires. That said, I'm on 200TW RE11As on my 18x10s and they are great entry-level track tires.

 

[Boaisy]

I just bought a bunch of brake upgrades last week. The last boxes of it came yesterday, and am planning to do the overhaul this weekend. Rotors, Pads, SS lines from Vorshlag, Fluids, etc. I was getting so fast with my car, that it was hard to stop it. That, and I've eaten up the left rear brakes.

 

[claudermilk]

That, and I've eaten up the left rear brakes.

You DO turn off the electronic nannies on track, right? Leaving TC & AdvanceTrack on will eat your rear brakes and slow you down.