TR3650 difficulty getting into 1st 2nd 4th and reverse

46addict

13726548
Joined
Aug 25, 2016
Posts
1,832
Reaction score
56
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
Getting back on topic, op where is the catch point on your clutch? I recently noticed I can shift just by pushing the clutch in about a quarter of the way to the floor. Shouldnt it be the opposite if the slave is old and worn? Im a little lost lol.
It's right near the middle. I would say low-middle. On that note the shifting has gotten much better now that I started daily driving the car. My former daily got totaled after being rear ended so I started taking the Stang to work and it shifts good. Except getting into reverse still requires an entry to 5th.

One thing I noticed is after a long highway drive with no shifting, and I clutch in to slow down at the offramp, the clutch pedal lacks resistance on the first pedal depression. Don't know what this is about.

But yes I would think that a worn slave would make it difficult for you to shift even with the clutch to the floor.
 

07gts197

forum member
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Posts
1,171
Reaction score
124
Location
Naples, Fl
It's right near the middle. I would say low-middle. On that note the shifting has gotten much better now that I started daily driving the car. My former daily got totaled after being rear ended so I started taking the Stang to work and it shifts good. Except getting into reverse still requires an entry to 5th.

One thing I noticed is after a long highway drive with no shifting, and I clutch in to slow down at the offramp, the clutch pedal lacks resistance on the first pedal depression. Don't know what this is about.

But yes I would think that a worn slave would make it difficult for you to shift even with the clutch to the floor.

I daily my stang too but it doesnt make a difference. It seems that the clutch engagement point is higher when cold and gets a little lower while driving but not by much. Reverse doesnt ever give me trouble thankfully, not like the t45 in my old 00 gt lol.

That kind of sounds like you have a leak somewhere. Id check around just in case.

Exactly my thought, thats why I feel its odd that Im having the symptoms Im having.
 

07gts197

forum member
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Posts
1,171
Reaction score
124
Location
Naples, Fl
Ive been reading up on this more and more and the majority of these problems stem from a bad pressure plate. It looks like Ill be doing my clutch again soon.
 

07gts197

forum member
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Posts
1,171
Reaction score
124
Location
Naples, Fl
I didnt find much on here mostly elsewhere. The only thread I still had in my history was this one but its not what I was referring to.

https://community.cartalk.com/t/ver...ang-manual-transmission-into-1st-gear/79028/6

Regardless it seems that its usually the pressure plate being worn or defective. Google your symptoms and look at every thread you can find. Not all were mustangs but all pretty much had the same conclusion. If I had another daily driver and more time/money I would try a new clutch. I like my Exedy but if a new one could fix it I would take the chance of another one fixing my problems.
 

702GT

S197 Fanatic
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Posts
2,060
Reaction score
52
Location
Las Vegas
The OEM clutch has always been underestimated, I've put and witnessed others put the OEM clutch through "brutal" conditions and not fail. 500whp+ applications in both drag, auto-x, and drift conditions. Will the stocker wear out faster in these harsh conditions? Yes. Especially drag. In a performance oriented vehicle, it is to be expected that special and additional maintenance/repair will be the norm. Even in daily driving situations, just running that higher pressure plate is going to induce faster wear on its supporting parts.

That said, I do not believe any aftermarket pressure plate is to blame. These manufacturers are building their parts to specifications that have been established for decades. I find it hard to believe that the S197 platform somehow warrants special specifications. After all, what's so special about the S197's hydralic clutch system that differs so far from a WRX? Or Camaro? Or GTO? Or Ford GT? The list goes far and wide for other brands hydralic clutch system.

The 2 parts that stand out to me are the Master Cylinder and Slave Cylinder. The hose line is rated several times higher psi than what it will ever see in the system. But a braided line is a common place upgrade and easy to do. The slave is probably the least complicated part in the system. It's only function is to push the pressure plate utilizing hydralic pressure provided by the Master Cylinder. A failure on the part of the Slave would involve either a failed bearing or leak, and the leak would be visible. With exception, depending on the specification of the pressure plate depth, the slave may need to be shimmed to position it within its proper throw range. This is likely why the Exedy is among the most popular choice of clutch, as it follows on point or very close to OEM dimentions, making it relatively plug n play. So I don't feel the Slave is an issue when it comes to clutch problems, bar the minor exception.

The Master Cylinder is the key component in the hydralic clutch system. If you have a problem with your clutch, IMO it's going to come down to this part. The OEM unit in the S197 GT and most GT500's is a plastic body. This should cry foul from the get go. Plastic is notorious for warping under heat and pressure. It's also worth note that there are far fewer OEM clutch setups with complaints than there are aftermarket clutch setups with complaints. Aftermarket clutches generally have higher clamping force via inertially heavier pressure plate. Now the Master Cylinder must provide additional hydrallic pressure beyond it's OEM rating. It is my opinion that the Master is flexing/warping under pressure, causing the interal seals to leak by. If the seals leak, there may not be enough pressure provided to the slave to push the pressure plate completely off the clutch, thus grinding gears, hard to get in 1st/reverse, and idle rolls with depressed clutch in-gear. The '13 GT500 Master is a metal body, better seals, better design. It has a different dimentional throw than the OE GT Master, which is where the hunt begins for shimming the slave. In most cases, with no shims, the engagement point is going to be higher on the pedal compared to stock. Personally, I don't feel it's an issue, you get used to it fairly quick. Could it over-throw the pressure plate? Possibly, but not by much. I ran it for years before I sold the car and never had clutch issues after the GT500 MC went in. For those He-Man shifting their gear box, congratz on your world-class bench pressing, and enjoy fixing your gear fork, you fucked yourself jackass. If you have to flex a bicep to change gears, you're either doing it wrong or setup is so jacked you should stop driving it before you cause more damage. For those who already ground their synchro's out of existance, *shrug* fix em, or buy a reman, and get yourself a GT500 MC. Stop missing gears!
 

46addict

13726548
Joined
Aug 25, 2016
Posts
1,832
Reaction score
56
Location
Lawrenceville, GA
The Master Cylinder is the key component in the hydralic clutch system. If you have a problem with your clutch, IMO it's going to come down to this part. The OEM unit in the S197 GT and most GT500's is a plastic body. This should cry foul from the get go.
What year GT500s came with the plastic body Masters?
 

RocketcarX

95% of my weight is fuel
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Posts
2,738
Reaction score
220
Location
Colorado
The matched Exedy Mach 500 flywheel and clutch set up was miserable for me. The pedal effort was never worth it to me., super hard pedal and the clutch was on or off. It was always suspect in the way it would scratch shifts or be hard to get into reverse.
4R70W swapped and never looked back.
 

07gts197

forum member
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Posts
1,171
Reaction score
124
Location
Naples, Fl
The matched Exedy Mach 500 flywheel and clutch set up was miserable for me. The pedal effort was never worth it to me., super hard pedal and the clutch was on or off. It was always suspect in the way it would scratch shifts or be hard to get into reverse.
4R70W swapped and never looked back.
That and getting locked out are exactly whats happening with mine and Im also running an Exedy clutch. If I shift slowly and hold it where 2nd or 4th go it will eventually slide in by itself, never grinds it just gets locked out. But at high rpms with my tri ax there isnt an issue. My hurst loved to grind 1-2 at high rpms. With my tri ax I can always shift 1-2 above 5k rpms. Anything under that and its a crap shoot unless I shift so slowly that by the time I get into the gate the pressure plate (Im speculating) allows the shifter to slide into gear. But its still notchy. A light switch is a good way to describle the clutch too.

So to add to my posts when I put it into 1st from a stop I get locked out unless I push harder or put it into 3rd then 1st (which I prefer to do), the car rolls slightly when shifting into 1st, no grinding, the clutch will start to catch about half way out if I dont press the gas but when I do it slips, when I take off I have to just about dump the clutch otherwise itll slip, the clutch engages very close to the top of the pedal, I can shift all gears other than first but pushing the pedal down about 2-3 inches, synchros tested ok and the clutch doesnt slip at all when engaged.

Because of all the contradictory issues and having a new 13-14 gt500 clutch mc ss clutch line and multiple shifter combos Im suspecting its the clutch itself and not the transmission or hydraulic system.
 

RocketcarX

95% of my weight is fuel
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Posts
2,738
Reaction score
220
Location
Colorado
I always serviced the hydralics with OEM Ford parts and had to replace the FTE (OEM) slave twice and the master cylinder once.
The only way I could race the car was slow shifting and just sort of letting it into gear with even pressure on the shifter.
I have BMR's full catalog so the drivetrain was locked down just fine to prevent bind.
I had a few aftermarket shifters, the stock one with the Steeda extension worked best.
Nothing I did including the switch to Syncromesh ever made it better. I think the answer with the 3650 is to remain on the stock clutch.
 

702GT

S197 Fanatic
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Posts
2,060
Reaction score
52
Location
Las Vegas
What year GT500s came with the plastic body Masters?

'07-'12 GT500's all came with plastic body MC's. I think the major difference between the GT and GT500 MC's (for '05-10, anyway) was the bore size. GT500 was a bit bigger, but it's been a while so don't quote me on that. When they introduced the 5.8 monster in '13, they beefed up the MC, as I'm assuming they realized they needed better components to address the higher clamping force needs.

The matched Exedy Mach 500 flywheel and clutch set up was miserable for me. The pedal effort was never worth it to me., super hard pedal and the clutch was on or off. It was always suspect in the way it would scratch shifts or be hard to get into reverse.
4R70W swapped and never looked back.

That's the most common rationale I see in the car world. Guy buys a stock GT, does cams/cold air/exhaust and thinks he needs a new clutch to handle the 40whp he picked up. So he goes out and buys the highest clamping clutch he can get his hands on and hates it for the consequences.

For a drag setup, manual transmission is a thing of movies and something your dad/grand dad did back in the day. Auto's are faster, handle the power better, and far more effective with power adders than a stick car on the 1/8 or 1/4 miles. But most importantly, more consistent. Trying to select a clutch with enough clamping force that won't kill your shifting speed is tricky business. Even with a clutch cable car, I've seen many a drag racer snap or stretch the cable using high clamping force clutches.

The stock clutch doesn't get enough credit. It actually has great clamping force for the pedal effort. It's the clutch disc material that usually fails people. It's not a very "grabby" material, and doesn't perform well once it's been cooked. Once upon a time, my friends and I were doing a clutch swap on a buddies '01 GT after he fried his stock clutch at the track. When we pulled the clutch it was obvious the clutch material was glazed and fried, but the flywheel and pressure plate were fine once we brake cleaned the glaze off. He decided to just replace the clutch disc and used a different material composition. It ran 13 flat up until the stocker fried, ran 12.8 after the new clutch disc. 2 tenths is pretty significant when you consider the only thing that changed was clutch material. He ran that clutch for 3 seasons 'til the motor popped on the dyno being tuned for spray. That's a whole other story.

I don't see why the same can't be done for a S197 looking for better grab. By the time you get into the +600whp range, you're looking at a different tranny anyway as the 3650 isn't going to survive long up there unless upgraded. I had the Mach 400 in my S197, the pedal was a bit heavier than stock but not much, and I didn't have any shifting issues after the '13 GT500 MC. Even had the "dreaded" Hurst shifter in the car for 9 years.
 

eighty6gt

forum member
Joined
May 9, 2011
Posts
4,292
Reaction score
403
No mention anywhere here about shimming the slave for 3/4" to 1" of preload. I used a 3/8" spacer with my exedy.

IMG_20180326_173926.jpg
 

07gts197

forum member
Joined
Feb 5, 2015
Posts
1,171
Reaction score
124
Location
Naples, Fl
Im not sure if it would help in my case. My clutch is like a light switch a shim wont help that. And Im not getting locked out because the slave is getting stretched. I think the clutch was setup improperly or defective since day 1. That is good info though as I believe a lot of people do not shim the slave.
 

RocketcarX

95% of my weight is fuel
Joined
Jul 19, 2011
Posts
2,738
Reaction score
220
Location
Colorado
Im not sure if it would help in my case. My clutch is like a light switch a shim wont help that. And Im not getting locked out because the slave is getting stretched. I think the clutch was setup improperly or defective since day 1. That is good info though as I believe a lot of people do not shim the slave.
There is no set up to installing a clutch.
 

702GT

S197 Fanatic
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Posts
2,060
Reaction score
52
Location
Las Vegas
I have a 2013 GT500 MC. It is plastic.

I had the 13 GT500 MC as well, and mine was metal. Perhaps they changed them in a design update? Will have to dig up the old thread as there was some debate as to what part number people were ordering. It looked plastic in description pictures, but when I got the package, it was definitely metal. Larger cylinder bore as well. I didn't use any spacers with my Mach 400, given the engagement point with the master, I think a shim would've been overkill.
 

CammedS197

forum member
Joined
Sep 12, 2015
Posts
580
Reaction score
33
Location
Palm Bay, FL
I have been told that if you have an exedy slave you do not need nor want to shim your slave. Its built to oem spec.

I have the mach 400 with the pilot bearing and slave. Will be putting in hopefully soon. I will be swapping out the master to the 13-14 gt500 as well as a braided line all at once.
 

eighty6gt

forum member
Joined
May 9, 2011
Posts
4,292
Reaction score
403
the oem slave is built to OEM spec - ford racing folks were shimming those as well.
 

702GT

S197 Fanatic
Joined
Mar 18, 2010
Posts
2,060
Reaction score
52
Location
Las Vegas
The big issue with the OEM Master Cylinder was the seals were leaking-by not providing enough hydraulic pressure to the slave. If you lose throw at the Master, you'll lose throw at the Slave. I measured the distance from flywheel to the tips of the stock PP fingers and found the measurements to be the same as both the Centerforce DF and Exedy Mach 400. There was no shims on the OEM slave, and both doorman slaves I used on each clutch swap were the same dimension as the OEM slave. So why is shimming the slave necessary if it's not done at the factory? It seems to me that shimming the slave is a bandaide to cover for the fact that the Master is losing pressure by the internal seals. I can't speak for other clutch models other than the OEM, Centerforce DF, and Mach 400, as those are the only ones I owned and had physically put a tape measure to. In the instance of an aftermarket PP that matches OEM dimension, I think shimming is unnecessary. In regards to any tranny other than the 3650, shimming may be necessary. I don't know, I only ever ran my stock 3650, but I never had a slave issue, it was always the OEM Master Cylinder problem. All my shifting/clutch issues disappeared when I put the '13 GT500 MC in. Aside from having a higher engagement point on the pedal, which I found highly preferable for fast shifting, never had lock-outs, grinding, hard to get in gear from a standstill, none of it. The only thing I wish I had done in addition, while swapping out the MC, was to purge the line and install a separate fluid reservoir and cap the brake reservoir, and use Dot4 fluid for the clutch system.
 

Latest posts

Support us!

Support Us - Become A Supporting Member Today!

Click Here For Details

Sponsor Links

Banner image
Back
Top