05 to 09 coyote generation 2 swap! Guide and help tips

[2008_ScarlettGT]

I’ve seen a VIN flash mentioned in this thread. What is the purpose of this and how is it accomplished? I am doing a 3-2-1 Frankenstein coyote swap and running a PATS deleted gen 1 ECU.

 

[mattjames]

I’ve seen a VIN flash mentioned in this thread. What is the purpose of this and how is it accomplished? I am doing a 3-2-1 Frankenstein coyote swap and running a PATS deleted gen 1 ECU.

No point if you have PATS deleted

 

[CoyoteRed]

Been awhile since I checked this. So if I turn down the fuel pressure at the rail would this solve my problem? Could it be that easy? Thought I needed to remain return style so the emissions sensors won’t throw codes. What needs changed to run return-less?

 

[mattjames]

Been awhile since I checked this. So if I turn down the fuel pressure at the rail would this solve my problem? Could it be that easy? Thought I needed to remain return style so the emissions sensors won’t throw codes. What needs changed to run return-less?

The emissions shouldn't care if it's return or returnless.

 

[Justin Bonsell]

I just finished an 05 to gen 2 swap with a factory gen 2 PCM only. Anyone here with a gen 2 control pack know how the ac input switch is set up? My non-control-pack PCM relies on canbus for communicating between the AC dash button and the pcm. According to some of the control pack instructions, there's a wire in the 16 pin connector for an AC switch. I can see the parameter to enable it in my tune software(Its turned off on oem strategy but the control packs have it on). I believe this will make my AC work, but I don't know what pin it uses. Control pack instructions don't show c175b pinout or any actual wiring diagram. It would be really helpful if someone with a control pack could probe the c175b pin it goes to.

Also, I have a way to make tach, speedo, and temperature gauges work with an Arduino translating CAN bus messages. Still figuring out some bugs with speedo but it works most of the time, tach and temp are flawless. I also have an excel spreadsheet of my wiring if anyone else is interested in hardwiring a stock computer.

 

[mattjames]

I just finished an 05 to gen 2 swap with a factory gen 2 PCM only. Anyone here with a gen 2 control pack know how the ac input switch is set up? My non-control-pack PCM relies on canbus for communicating between the AC dash button and the pcm. According to some of the control pack instructions, there's a wire in the 16 pin connector for an AC switch. I can see the parameter to enable it in my tune software(Its turned off on oem strategy but the control packs have it on). I believe this will make my AC work, but I don't know what pin it uses. Control pack instructions don't show c175b pinout or any actual wiring diagram. It would be really helpful if someone with a control pack could probe the c175b pin it goes to.

Also, I have a way to make tach, speedo, and temperature gauges work with an Arduino translating CAN bus messages. Still figuring out some bugs with speedo but it works most of the time, tach and temp are flawless. I also have an excel spreadsheet of my wiring if anyone else is interested in hardwiring a stock computer.

View attachment 108912

Interested in this Arduino item you speak of. What info do you have on it?

 

[Justin Bonsell]

Arduino is a common microcontroller thats pretty easy to use/learn. I got the arduino uno specifically. You hook it to power and can upload a python program over usb. It basically just constantly runs a given program as long as its on. Sending data through various pins.

Theres these can bus modules that can be set to either send or recieve can messages in raw hexadecimal format. I found a product that has 2 modules, linked below. I set one to constantly scan the can wires coming from the pcm. The other sends messages to the gauge cluster.
The gauge cluster is looking for different CAN ID's than the pcm outputs.
The program I wrote looks for the speed/tach/temp/CEL/etc can IDs from the 5.0 pcm and stores their values. The can data isnt the true value. For example, 0-100 mph is represented by values between 1000-4000 for the s197, and 500-1000 for the coyote pcm. The program calculates the true speed value, then converts to the scale the gauges will understand, then sends the data to the cluster with the correct s197 CAN ID. It seperates the pcm from the cluster so there no risk of messing up the pcm with values it doesnt understand.

Luckily i found different sources where people had already reverse engineered the CAN IDs i was looking for, usually done for race datalogging purposes. I could use this method to make my A/C work if I knew the right ID.

Super easy to wire up. Gave the arduino switched ignition power so it runs when the car is on. Removed the cluster and snipped the 2 can bus wires in half. The 2 wires coming from the firewall/pcm connect to the input can module, the 2 coming from the gauge connect to the output module. I made a little enclosure and have it double sided taped under the dash. I left acces to the usb port open so I can tweak the code if needed.

I can make a diagram/upload my code if anyone is interested.

Dual CAN Bus Interface For Arduino Due With Extended Power Range

The board incorporates dual CAN Bus transceivers required by the two integrated CAN controller ports on the Arduino Due. It supports input power of 7 to 36 VDC.

copperhilltech.com

 

[Justin Bonsell]

Also, the speedometer bug may just be an issue with my sensor. I would love to have someone else attempt this to verify. Itll randomly jump to 20mph while sitting at a stop. I have verified its not a code issue, meaning its one of 2 things.
1. My speed sensor/wiring is faulty
Or 2. The gauge cluster has some sort of filtering to ignore bad data/signal noise.

 

[mattjames]

Also, the speedometer bug may just be an issue with my sensor. I would love to have someone else attempt this to verify. Itll randomly jump to 20mph while sitting at a stop. I have verified its not a code issue, meaning its one of 2 things.
1. My speed sensor/wiring is faulty
Or 2. The gauge cluster has some sort of filtering to ignore bad data/signal noise.

Good stuff. I usually deal with gen one ECUs where they’re 99% compatible with the cluster and SJB of these 05-10 cars.

I just did a swap in a 2014 expedition but I’m not sure if these will help

 

[Juice]

From what I recall, only Gen1 pcm will work with the 05-09 cluster. That's why I went Gen1. Was not going to deal with compatibility issues. You have to swap in a gen2 cluster, which means dash swap.

 

[Justin Bonsell]

Gen 2 swap into the expedition? If so, if you can find the CAN IDs for speedo,tach,etc you can just change a few lines in my program and it should work. Theres whole websites and forums dedicated to CAN decoding.

True juice, but my arduino CAN translator gets rid of compatibility issues. All my gauges work. Took like 2 days to make, way easier than a dash swap.

Back to my original topic, what c175b pin is for A/C request on a gen 2 control pack. I live in texas and need to get out of this heat.

 

[mattjames]

Gen 2 swap into the expedition? If so, if you can find the CAN IDs for speedo,tach,etc you can just change a few lines in my program and it should work. Theres whole websites and forums dedicated to CAN decoding.

True juice, but my arduino CAN translator gets rid of compatibility issues. All my gauges work. Took like 2 days to make, way easier than a dash swap.

Back to my original topic, what c175b pin is for A/C request on a gen 2 control pack. I live in texas and need to get out of this heat.

No Gen 1, everything bolts up and you can re use the transmission and trans harness. ECU even bolts in place. Motor mounts get re used. All gages work except the ABS and Airbag modules aren't happy with not communicating with the PCM

 

[Justin Bonsell]

damn, that is nice. A lot less BS than the gen 2 for sure. I've heard rumors of success using a coyote abs module but id imagine there's some mounting/hose fab involved. I may give it an attempt and report back but it's pretty low on my list. who needs em anyway

 

[bacchus203]

... you can find the CAN IDs for speedo,tach,etc you can just change a few lines in my program and it should work. Theres whole websites and forums dedicated to CAN decoding.

True juice, but my arduino CAN translator gets rid of compatibility issues. All my gauges work. Took like 2 days to make, way easier than a dash swap.

Back to my original topic, what c175b pin is for A/C request on a gen 2 control pack. I live in texas and need to get out of this heat.

I am about to do this with an Arduino so that I can clean up the TACH signal from the coyote PCM to the 2007 cluster. It is intermittent at times and I believe reformatting the signal to 2007 CAN bus packets will do the trick.

BTW, also Texas and just now got the A/C working. Bypassed the PCM all together. Now I am daily driving it.

 

[Justin Bonsell]

I am about to do this with an Arduino so that I can clean up the TACH signal from the coyote PCM to the 2007 cluster. It is intermittent at times and I believe reformatting the signal to 2007 CAN bus packets will do the trick.

BTW, also Texas and just now got the A/C working. Bypassed the PCM all together. Now I am daily driving it.

Love to hear it. The 5.0 tach signal on canID 0x204 bytes 3 and 4 works wonderfully. Sending to cluster on 0x201 byte 4 and 5. I can send code/conversion formulas if you need help. Still wasn't able to get speedometer from the coyote pcm. Seems like all the speed data on canbus gets pulled from the abs and wheel speed sensors, which I don't have. Wrote some code that taps directly into the VSS wire to measure pulses per second, then sends can message to the gauge, hopefully that works a bit better.

Still no luck with the A/C, but its cooled down here so I have time. I'd like to keep the pcm idle raise logic if possible. Found a CANID that correlates with climate function but not sure if its going to do anything. With bypassing the pcm, does it bog down at idle when the compressor kicks on?

 

[jaybnve]

New guy here, with a few questions. This thread has answered many of them, so I thank the contributors for all the great information. I've been in fast Mustangs since the 80s, and have six 68s and 69s, (including a 68 Shelby and two Boss 429s), and also a couple 8 and 9 second race cars.

My son just got interested in cars last summer (finally...) and purchased a 2006 Roush Mustang, 4.6 3V Stage 3. It has cams and headers and the small pulley on the blower; at 5 pounds of boost maximum I'm guessing it makes around 425 HP. It is not fast enough for him so we are planning a Coyote swap. We have a TVS Magnuson 2.65L blower setup, and also plan on a Tremec T56 XL. We will be purchasing a 2015-17 Mustang GT repairable and pull the engine and other parts out of that. None of the mechanical stuff scares me, been doing that a long time, but the electronics are another story. I have a degree in electrical engineering, but still...

Also, our state does not require emissions testing, and we are not concerned about ABS and traction control. This is a limited use vehicle, so if that stuff doesn't work, we don't care.

Question 1, PCM and wiring: Since we are buying a running and driving 2015-17 repairable, it would be really nice if we could use the PCM and harness from that car. I was very interested to see a previous post where a CAN transceiver plus an Arduino could be modified to work the 2006 instrument panel. Assuming we could make the instrument panel work with the Arduino, what other functions/features of the 2006 car will be problematic with the 2015-17 PCM and harness? If this is a dumb idea, please tell me.

Also, since we will have the key for the repairable, couldn't we just stash it in the console near the PATS transceiver and use the original key to run the car? No need for PATS delete...

If using the repairable PCM and harness is a bad idea, our plan would be to go with a Gen1 PCM, engine harness and transmission harness, and go with the harness from make-it-modular. But then we would need to find a Gen1 PCM, the harnesses, and do the PATS delete and VIN flash on the PCM. Adds a bunch of cost and effort, but if it is the best way to go that's what we'll do.

Question 2, fuel system: We've been reading a lot about the fuel systems, and not sure on the best way to proceed. We are planning to get the Coyote fuel line from the chassis fuel line up to the Coyote fuel rails, so the system will be single ended, not a return style.The car has already been upgraded to a Walbro 400 lph fuel pump by the previous owner. Theoretically that should be enough capacity for this engine, but I have some experience with fuel pumps being rated rather optimistically, so I don't really know if this pump is sufficient for a 700 HP boosted application. Is it? Does anyone know the pressure output of the Walbro pump, as compared to the stock pump? We will be running about 12 pounds of boost; is there a pressure regulator in the stock fuel system that can be boost referenced? Also, usually when I upgrade the fuel system on my cars I also increase the size of the fuel line; is that something that should be done here?

Thanks in advance for any comments, we will have a couple more questions later. We are fortunate to have a local friend who is knowledgeable about the 2015-2017 GTs; in fact, he has built the only AWD 2016 Mustang in existence, AFAIK. He has suggested sticking with the Gen2 PCM, which is why we are considering that. He will also help with the PCM tuning; we are going to set the Coyote up on my engine dyno, install the supercharger and tune it there. This is my first foray into a modern engine, so I'm looking forward to learning about it.

 

[Justin Bonsell]

Haven't had any major issues besides the cluster with the gen 2 pcm, only can bus differences such as: ac button doesn't work(can easily hardwire button to AC relay), Reverse lights don't come on with reverse switch(can also hardwire to lights). takes a bit of wire splicing to various connectors. If you're comfortable reading wire diagrams the gen 2 is no problem. Hard to beat plug and play solutions but the junkyard build is possible, just going to take more work. I can also share my wiring spreadsheet I made. One thing to keep in mind is that for some reason, every year of 05-09 mustangs has slight variations with the c110 connector(i think thats the correct number). Make sure you get a wiring diagram for your exact year. I think especially with a donor car, you may be able to get things like PATS, ABS, traction control working. Can't help with fuel system info.

Think I have a solution for the speedometer. The OEM output from the transmission speed sensor is an AC sine wave. The arduino can't read this directly, but SIRHC labs makes a device intended for reading speed signals that converts the sine wave to a DC(0-X Volts) square wave. This is perfect for the arduino

Cortex EBC Speed Sensor Adapter

Connecting magnetic/VR/inductive sensors and two-wire hall effect sensors to the Cortex EBC will require the use of a speed sensor adapter. These adapters output a 0 – 12 V pulsed speed signal that matches the frequency of the signal produced by a magnetic/VR/inductive sensor or two-wire hall...

sirhclabs.com

The sensor needs to be wired to the adapter inputs(removed from pcm). Then the adapter output can go to both the pcm and arduino. arduino side will work perfectly and I can make speedometer to work. CAN bus info for 05-09 speedometer control is known. I put a lotta miles on my odometer making the cluster think it was going 60mph anytime it was on. The info tech at SIRHC believes that the square wave output will work with the PCM. Asking him a few more questions before I attempt this.

If the pcm doesn't work with square wave then all hope is NOT lost. The SIRHC adapter also works with abs sensors(even if abs system doesn't work). So worst case, I leave the VSS/OSS wiring stock and send speed data to the arduino from one of the wheel speed sensors.

 

[mattjames]

Lot of work when you could just use gen one cams and phasers to use a gen 1 ECU with a gen 2 engine and have everything, just, work.

 

[jaybnve]

Thanks for the comments. Since I wrote the original post 5 weeks ago, my son and I have learned a lot more about this swap, and the potential options available. My son found a guy on Facebook known as Lethal Nate, who can take both the S197 wiring harness and a Gen2 wiring harness, and modify them so that the S197 PCM runs the normal car functions, and the Gen2 PCM runs the drivetrain functions. The only downside I can see is that we will have two PCMs in the car, but since we are buying a repairable, we will have both PCMs on hand. We think we can get a running/semi-driving repairable with around 80K miles for about $7500, so that is at least cost competitive with buying just the engine ($5K-$6K for the ones we've looked at) and then adding cams, phasors, and a Gen1 PCM and engine/trans wiring harnesses. Lethal Nate says that we will get some cluster warning lights using his approach, but we don't really care about that. Any comments on his approach? Matt, I would really like to hear your take on this...

On the fuel system side our local friend has suggested a VMP voltage booster for the pump, and retaining the stock style fuel system; this is what he is using on his Gen2 Mustang with the Magnuson Supercharger. I've read online that the fuel line which connects to the S197 fuel line in the engine compartment and runs up to the Coyote fuel rails is no longer available. Is that true? If not, can someone point us in the direction of where to acquire that fuel line? We can cobble something together but it would be nice to just bolt something on.

Justin, I really appreciate your detailed post and may reach out to you for your wiring diagram, arduino code, etc. if we decide to just use the Gen2 PCM. Our issue is timing; we have a limited time, only about 6-8 weeks, to complete this project, starting from when we get the repairable in late April or early May. If we can't get the car up and running to our satisfaction in our time window it will end up sitting for quite a while before we can get back to it. Making everything work with the Gen2 PCM sounds like it may take more time than we have...

Thanks again for the comments, and I will update as we proceed on this project.

 

[mattjames]

Thanks for the comments. Since I wrote the original post 5 weeks ago, my son and I have learned a lot more about this swap, and the potential options available. My son found a guy on Facebook known as Lethal Nate, who can take both the S197 wiring harness and a Gen2 wiring harness, and modify them so that the S197 PCM runs the normal car functions, and the Gen2 PCM runs the drivetrain functions. The only downside I can see is that we will have two PCMs in the car, but since we are buying a repairable, we will have both PCMs on hand. We think we can get a running/semi-driving repairable with around 80K miles for about $7500, so that is at least cost competitive with buying just the engine ($5K-$6K for the ones we've looked at) and then adding cams, phasors, and a Gen1 PCM and engine/trans wiring harnesses. Lethal Nate says that we will get some cluster warning lights using his approach, but we don't really care about that. Any comments on his approach? Matt, I would really like to hear your take on this...

On the fuel system side our local friend has suggested a VMP voltage booster for the pump, and retaining the stock style fuel system; this is what he is using on his Gen2 Mustang with the Magnuson Supercharger. I've read online that the fuel line which connects to the S197 fuel line in the engine compartment and runs up to the Coyote fuel rails is no longer available. Is that true? If not, can someone point us in the direction of where to acquire that fuel line? We can cobble something together but it would be nice to just bolt something on.

Justin, I really appreciate your detailed post and may reach out to you for your wiring diagram, arduino code, etc. if we decide to just use the Gen2 PCM. Our issue is timing; we have a limited time, only about 6-8 weeks, to complete this project, starting from when we get the repairable in late April or early May. If we can't get the car up and running to our satisfaction in our time window it will end up sitting for quite a while before we can get back to it. Making everything work with the Gen2 PCM sounds like it may take more time than we have...

Thanks again for the comments, and I will update as we proceed on this project.

I’m friends with Nate and I wouldn’t even call us competitors cause we help each other out, but I would go with gen one cams, phasers, and ecu and have no messages on your cluster and have everything work as intended with one PCM