Auto vs Manual WOT operation

[DesertStang06]

Trying to be as concise and short winded as possible here, please bear with me.

Three months ago I converted to manual.
Now never having owned a manual s197, I'm asking the pros.

When it was an auto, you go wide open, it does nothing for a brief second then opens the flood gates.

It doesn't do that anymore.
Feels almost gradual.

Tune/octane
Time of day
No difference in behavior.

Is this normal, i.e. no TC and such and this is just the way it goes? Or should I start checking things?

Sorry it wasn't the best description of concern.
But I'm sure anyone with an auto knows what I'm talking about.

Basic maintenance is good.
Plugs, COPs, wiring, etc.

So either I'm just weird or is this sound like an issue?

 

[01yellerCobra]

To me it sounds like you're talking about when the auto down shifts. Now you have to do it yourself. Drop it down a gear or two then punch it. I usually keep the engine above 4k when on it hard.

 

[DesertStang06]

So the rational part of me was correct?
Auto operations.

It just always felt very light switch in WOT operations.

This feels ever so slightly more gradual.

Granted throwing into third on the highway gives that punch.
It still doesn't feel like an on/off switch.

Perhaps lack of modding is making me paranoid....

 

[stkjock]

Downshift and hit the loud pedal... /thread

Moved to Chat

 

[Pentalab]

2nd gear on the 5r55s auto tranny is 14% lower than 2nd gear in the 3650 manual tranny. 3rd gear on the 5r55s is 16.5% lower than 3rd gear on the 3650 manual.4th gear is the same 1:1 ratio on both tranny's. 1st + 5th is slightly higher on the 3650 manual. If you punch it in 3rd or 4th gear at 50 mph, it will be a slug, if NA + manual.

With the auto it's 45 mph in 1st, 62 mph in 2nd, almost 100 mph in 3rd, and 150 mph in 4th. That's with a 3.31 rear gear + 27" tall rear tires.

Your 3650 tranny would require a 3.73 rear gear to equal the auto....just for 2nd gear....and would require a 3.90 rear gear to equal the auto in 3rd gear.

 

[DesertStang06]

Downshift and hit the loud pedal... /thread

Moved to Chat

Sincerely sorry.
Haha
Figured it was technically "tech"

Thanks!

 

[DesertStang06]

So basically, the whole thing was purely automatic action?

I was about to tear everything apart looking for abnormalities

2nd gear on the 5r55s auto tranny is 14% lower than 2nd gear in the 3650 manual tranny. 3rd gear on the 5r55s is 16.5% lower than 3rd gear on the 3650 manual.4th gear is the same 1:1 ratio on both tranny's. 1st + 5th is slightly higher on the 3650 manual. If you punch it in 3rd or 4th gear at 50 mph, it will be a slug, if NA + manual.

With the auto it's 45 mph in 1st, 62 mph in 2nd, almost 100 mph in 3rd, and 150 mph in 4th. That's with a 3.31 rear gear + 27" tall rear tires.

Your 3650 tranny would require a 3.73 rear gear to equal the auto....just for 2nd gear....and would require a 3.90 rear gear to equal the auto in 3rd gear.

Yeah, I was going to go 3.73 when it was auto based on the ratios. But figured why not and put 4.10s instead.
Which are awesome now that it's a manual.

Does the 5r downshift to 3rd assuming the parameters are safe?
Or no matter the speed did it stay in 4th (assuming O/D off)

Been wondering that after a dyno session

Thanks so far.

This is why I moved over here.
Very smart people.

Sorry to have asked such a stupid question.
But the last manuals I've owned were New Edges and older.
So I was a bit uncertain if the ecu throttle strategy was a little different or I'm just readjusting to having a manual after a few years with the slushbox.

It just FEELS slightly different on throttle response when I throw it down and floor it.

I'll listen here. And to cement any doubt. Log TPS readings.

 

[Norm Peterson]

With an automatic, you can also get a little help from the torque converter if you're not revved up too much (the engine is allowed to rev up higher than the road speed actually demands, and there can actually be a little torque multiplication across it when that happens - making the car temporarily think it's got a bigger engine). A MT cannot take advantage of that.

With 4.10's, a 5R55S should be finding 3rd from a WOT-commanded downshift at 50 mph. With 3.31's it might even find 2nd @ 50.


Norm

 

[DesertStang06]

Indeed.
Below 70 3rd hauls.
Higher it doesn't have much room.

I checked tps readings this morning.
Showed 100%

So yep, I'm just paranoid.

Thanks guys.

I really guess I never gave the auto too much credit

 

[702GT]

Could always have your tuner punch up your throttle response. I had mine punched way up. But it comes with its own drawbacks. Touchy peddle, difficulty trimming during warm up. However, when your foot's on the wood, it's game on. No wind up for the pitch, just goes.

 

[Norm Peterson]

Add wet weather and winter driving to the list of downsides for "punched up throttle response". Autocross and road course driving too, if you get serious about such things.


Norm

 

[DesertStang06]

If I started running my "race" tune haha
That would definitely add some pep.

As for wet and slippery, isn't that what 2-3 starts are for? Haha

Worked in Oregon.

 

[Norm Peterson]

It's not just the starts I'd be concerned about. Rolling into the throttle while exiting a corner could also cause a seat-pucker moment if throttle tip-in was too aggressive.


Norm

 

[DesertStang06]

The pucker moment is rain around here.
Can't relax. Have to constantly scan all directions, someone's sliding around somewhere here.....

 

[Pentalab]

With an automatic, you can also get a little help from the torque converter if you're not revved up too much (the engine is allowed to rev up higher than the road speed actually demands, and there can actually be a little torque multiplication across it when that happens - making the car temporarily think it's got a bigger engine). A MT cannot take advantage of that.

With 4.10's, a 5R55S should be finding 3rd from a WOT-commanded downshift at 50 mph. With 3.31's it might even find 2nd @ 50.


Norm

With 3.31's, at 45 mph, (+27" rear tires) it will drop from 4/5..down to 3rd, then a split second later, down to 2nd, then all hell breaks loose. At 50+ mph, it will only drop to 3rd. The problem with an auto + PD blower is when you mash it, it drops a bunch of gears + instant tq hit. I found if I feather the gas pedal, I can put the boost gauge between 0-2 psi.

Flip side is... get off the gas, and blower shuts off..and it upshifts a bunch of gears....both simultaneously. If going through some twisty stuff, manually shifting into 3rd will at least keep it in 3rd. Ditto with 2nd gear. The only way to keep it in 4th, without downshifting, is to ease into the gas pedal...then you can get full boost, and stay in 4th.

It's a trick to get the technique down correctly. This assumes in the dry. In the wet, you have to baby everything.

 

[DesertStang06]

Maybe it was my tune...
Because 3rd won't reach the 120 zone.
And if I smashed the pedal around 60...it wouldn't upshift.

It never left 4th.

A major reason I yanked it.

 

[Pentalab]

Maybe it was my tune...
Because 3rd won't reach the 120 zone.
And if I smashed the pedal around 60...it wouldn't upshift.

It never left 4th.

A major reason I yanked it.

4.10 / 3.31 = 1.24 Your rpm will be 24% higher with 4.10 gears vs 3.31 gears...at any speed, in any gear.

3.31 / 4.10 = .807 Your max speed in 3rd gear would have only been .807 x 95 mph = 76.7 mph. 36 mph in 1st gear. 50 mph in 2nd gear. 121 mph in 4th gear.

That all assumes a 27" rear tire + 6 krpm. A 4.10 gear would be a good match for a taller rear tire like 28-29". I looked at a gear swap a few yrs back, and decided to leave it alone. The 3.31 + 27" tires works fine..esp with the small blower + LT's.

 

[07 Boss]

Your motor cuts some power when shifting. When you punch it and she downshifts there will be a slight hesitation as she is shifting and the PCM wont give it power until the shift is done.

A little word of warning though. Shifting from 5th to 3rd will shorten the life of your tranny. The bands in these are not the best and it is always third gear that seems to go our first. I'm on my 3rd tranny and this one at least has the Alto Red kolene steel bands in it so I'm hoping it can hold up to the abuse. You should be able to find a throttle position where you can get it to downshift without going all the way into 3rd from 5th. Otherwise you can always manual shift it. I never get into OD unless I'm going at least 70 so it is rare anymore that she will shift all the way into 3rd from 5th, but occasionally she still does.

The first sign of your 3rd gear clutches going out will be a slower than normal up shift between 2nd and 3rd. When that starts to happen your time is limited.

 

[DesertStang06]

My reverse actually started being ever so slightly stubborn first thing in the morning or after prolonged sitting.

No actual issue with it, rather the shift lever seemed to fight me when going either into reverse or past it into drive.

It gave me 154k trouble free miles.
So I can't fault it for anything.

I just wanted positive control back.
Buying another vehicle, incurring payments, etc.
Vs the $1200 I spent on parts/fluids.

Was a no brainer for me.

My 3650 had a verified 26k.
Used the same fluids I have on all my tremecs.
Mobil 1 atf and Lucas shift fix.
They've all shifted like butter.

My F150 is an auto and that's perfectly alright with me.
I used it as my daily and will resume such.

But for my playthings.
I prefer manuals.

 

[DesertStang06]

Reviving old thread.

Just want to thank everyone for their input.
It's just me being paranoid.

You guys facts and sound reasoning helped calm me down and got me to quit stressing over non existent issues.

So big props to all who took the time to answer my stupid question!

I'm really digging this forum much more than afm or other spots I've been a regular at.

Not saying they are bad, there are just too many mad scientists here.

Thanks again!