Autocross help

[Sky Render]

• Steeda "Ultralite" springs
• Koni "Yellow" adjustable shocks
• Maximum Motorsports Caster/Camber plates
• Whiteline heavy-duty, 4-way-adjustable sway bars (front and rear)
• Whiteline heavy-duty adjustable end links (front and rear)
• Whiteline adjustable panhard bar
• Whiteline panhard bar brace
• Whiteline upper control arm and mount
• Whiteline adjustable lower control arms
• Whiteline "Anti-squat" relocation brackets
• TSW forged "Nurburgring" wheels
• Nitto NT555 tires (These tires suck, though. Nitto NT05s are good.)

And, yes, I like Whiteline.


Don't start modifying the car until the driver's been modified. For now, the most important things are good shocks (those Konis are flipping awesome) and better tires. Better tires don't change the overall driving dynamics of the vehicle and simply increase grip all around. The stock shocks are junk.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Just for comparison's sake:

AST coilover dampers
Hypercoil springs (350F, 300R, going to 500/300)
Maximum Motorsports camber/caster plates
Stranoparts sway bars F+R
Maximum Motorsports lower control arms (rod ends!)
Steeda upper control arm (rod ends!)
FRPP GT500 front control arms
Steeda X5 ball joints
Steeda bump-steer kit (rod ends!)
Freedom Racing Panhard bar (rocks! Oh, and rod ends!)
GT500 front calipers, stock rear, with Hawk DTC-60 pads (race compound)
5Zigen FN01R-C wheels, Hoosier R6 rubber (275/35-18)
Partridge firmly placed in pear tree...

Still, it's not about the kit on the car, it's about the driver behind the wheel. I went out in the intermediate group one day at Road America, just to see how they were behaving (I was instructing), and caught and passed an E46 M3. Big deal, right? Wrong. I was driving a bone-stock Ford Focus... At a horsepower track, with the 113MPH speed limiter intact.

Until you can POSITIVELY say that the "weak link in the chain" is the car, hold off on the mods. If you understeer on corner entry, is it because of tires? Damper settings? Camber angles or tire pressure? Or did you overcook the corner? Snap the wheel over too fast? Go in with too much gas? Half are equipment issues, but the other half are pure driver error. Yes, you can hang some sticky rubber on the car, with great dampers, and feel like a hero, until you realize that somebody just waxed your ass with all-season tires and WalMart shocks... Work the driver first! For what it's worth, I've been a certified instructor since '09, and I STILL try to get coaching every chance I get!

 

[GOTTORQ]

Thanks guys, more than 50% of my issues are more than likely driver error. But I also think my shocks,tires, and wheel setup are also part of my problems. I've been in H&R supersports with stock shocks for 3-4 years. These shocks are crying. Same with the tires, I've had these nt555s for 3-4 years (The car isn't my daily driver). I've done my fair share of burnouts, 3rd gear burnouts lol. And due to the negative camber the inner side of the front tires are almost done to the metal, while the rest of the front tires have 60%. I was definitely way too aggressive with the gas, too fast and jerky with the hands. Slaloms kick my ass. Under steering and over steering like crazy, they also hold these events in parking lots with loose Tarmac in some spots. So a mixture of all of it. I live some what close to a few road courses(limerock,Watkins glen, and New Jersey Motorsports park and I think I will try to get a few events there, especially limerock.

I hope many others will see this thread and learn from it.

http://youtu.be/bBNw6AzYdBU

Here's a vid of a run my first time auto crossing, probably my 3rd pass of the day

 

[Whiskey11]

Just for comparison's sake:

AST coilover dampers
Hypercoil springs (350F, 300R, going to 500/300)
Maximum Motorsports camber/caster plates
Stranoparts sway bars F+R
Maximum Motorsports lower control arms (rod ends!)
Steeda upper control arm (rod ends!)
FRPP GT500 front control arms
Steeda X5 ball joints
Steeda bump-steer kit (rod ends!)
Freedom Racing Panhard bar (rocks! Oh, and rod ends!)
GT500 front calipers, stock rear, with Hawk DTC-60 pads (race compound)
5Zigen FN01R-C wheels, Hoosier R6 rubber (275/35-18)
Partridge firmly placed in pear tree...

Still, it's not about the kit on the car, it's about the driver behind the wheel. I went out in the intermediate group one day at Road America, just to see how they were behaving (I was instructing), and caught and passed an E46 M3. Big deal, right? Wrong. I was driving a bone-stock Ford Focus... At a horsepower track, with the 113MPH speed limiter intact.

Until you can POSITIVELY say that the "weak link in the chain" is the car, hold off on the mods. If you understeer on corner entry, is it because of tires? Damper settings? Camber angles or tire pressure? Or did you overcook the corner? Snap the wheel over too fast? Go in with too much gas? Half are equipment issues, but the other half are pure driver error. Yes, you can hang some sticky rubber on the car, with great dampers, and feel like a hero, until you realize that somebody just waxed your ass with all-season tires and WalMart shocks... Work the driver first! For what it's worth, I've been a certified instructor since '09, and I STILL try to get coaching every chance I get!

Holy sheet rear spring rate batman! :O With a rear swaybar and PHB too!

Here is my set up:

Tokico D-Specs (Don't do these... Koni's, NO REALLY, Koni's!)
Steeda Sports (200F, 175R rates)
Steeda HD plates (-1.7º camber, +7.5º caster, 0 toe)
Strano 35mm front bar
Strano 25mm rear bar
Fays2 Watts Link
Stock 18x8.5 Bullits
245/45/18 Dunlop Direzza Z1 Sport Star Specs

What I'm hoping to change for next year:
18x9 TSW Nurburgrings (These are rotary forged FWIW, 19.7 lbs)
265/40/18 Hankook RS3's

I definitely could use some better shocks/struts and more spring rate and some wider tires. I just had the Star Specs flipped on the rims today so they are ready to go for next year. More camber wouldn't hurt either...

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Spring rates? I got yer spring rates, right here:



Still getting a bit more squat than I want, too:

Well, not really. Not a gag, not photoshopped, but I had a fairly "stout" passenger, and that particular left-hand corner exit is uphill, on-camber, right after a reasonably fast carousel, so you can REALLY get on it hard.

Keep in mind, mine's a track toy, not a DD or dual-purpose car. NVH? Don't care. Streetable comfort? Not on your life. That said, with the rebound dialled down, the springs are surprisingly comfy over rough surfaces. I wouldn't try potholes with their own zip codes, but normal frost heaves, pavement seams, the occasional berm, etc., are no problem.

Next year I'm going to play around with spring rates and bar settings a bit more just to work on the turn-in phase, but that package as it sits, is good for 1.4G lateral, and is nicely controllable.

Oh, and +1 on NOT getting D-Specs: I actually broke one of mine! Yes, it has a warranty, go ahead and send it back to Japan! The guts just came apart internally, and I wound up with -5.5* camber static, but quite variable if you yanked on the tire...

 

[Whiskey11]

I guess I'm just used to the FR500 rates of 600F/300R but without a rear swaybar and then seeing your front rates still lower (even after you changing them) and still running a rear swaybar! That is pretty intense but whatever works!

And yeah, D-Specs are kind of a headache... I haven't had any issues yet (only 10k miles on them...) reliability wise, but performance wise I've hit that cliff that is rebound+compression damping together... I'm at a point where if I go any higher on the adjuster at either end of the car that end just skates across the pavement (not a good thing on the National's concrete, highly abrasive airplane parking pad) yet the car feels better in transitions where I can keep the grip. In that regard, I really wish I had waited for the Koni's rather than going with the D-specs... Hindsight is 20/20 which is part of the reason they don't make glasses for your butt...

 

[Chim-Chim]

I guess I'm just used to the FR500 rates of 600F/300R but without a rear swaybar and then seeing your front rates still lower (even after you changing them) and still running a rear swaybar!

The FR500Cs swap rates depending on the track and conditions, though.

A better comparison is the FR500S, which uses 500/300 with the FRPP swaybars--may not be the best rate for all tracks, but they probably are a damn good compromise. Which is what most of us with day jobs like. No need to reinvent the wheel when Ford has done it for us.

 

[Surfergeek]

Great thread and great recommendations guys. One of the reasons I have come to love this particular Mustang forum over the many others out there.

 

[Sam Strano]

I have to admit I start out entertained by these threads, then my blood pressure starts to rise.

OP, your car can be VERY competitive for autocross, provided you don't go and do something stupid that will bone you on classing *And* you understand the old adage that speed costs money, how fast do you want to go? Maybe I missed it, but knowing what class you want to run in would be somewhat smart to know. Car is competitive in some, sucks in others. Of course you need to learn to drive, but a disaster of a car is not a lot of fun to drive in general and still faster than a stock one. And fwiw, it's a lot more fun to drive on the street if you work on it too.

SkyRender's list.... well, let's just say you don't want to do that entire list as there are things that will completely screw you in terms of being competitive. Also, there are things on that list I personally don't like too. To each his own. We've met, and he's a customer of mine... he bought his Koni's from me. While he autocrosses, he does so on a very low key level when classing and competition isn't a big deal. In fact we met just weeks ago, and I took him for a run in my Corvette and I think he was, well... a bit shocked at the speed but maybe more so when I told him that an ESP Mustang can and will run as fast as the Corvette. His car has things that bump him beyond that class, but really don't help for speed. And while he's on street tires, the pace isn't there. I was 5 or 6 seconds quicker in a 173 HP Stock category setup Solstice, also on STREET tires, not race tires, that very day... and it was, make no mistake a power course. I was about 10 seconds a lap quicker in the Corvette.

I looked at you video... that's not what I really call an autocross. The lot is tiny, there is not much room to do anything to build any kind of speed. It'd clear the dampers at a good place to start just watching the thing bob around. Also, I'd recommend 2nd gear too.

You can see some of what I do http://www.stranoparts.com/videos.php (there are autox vids of Mustangs, Camaro's and Corvettes there) and some track video of my Camaro and my FR-S too, just for variety. In particular watch the ones titled "Some new CAMARO Footage... Dave Ogburn in the former Strano shop car, tearing it up!!!!" (particularly the last 10 seconds from outside the car) and "2010 Solo Nationals--WEST COURSE" which is footage of me running my 2011 5.0 and winning F-stock National Championship for the 4th year in a row (previous 3 coming in a 2007 Shelby GT). That thing had only a Stranoparts swaybar, Koni's, alignment and Hoosiers.

 

[GOTTORQ]

Sam,thanks for your input. I'm not here to raise your blood pressure lol. I appreciate all the advice you have given. I'm extremely new to the sport. Im here to educate myself and be educated. I have only been auto crossing twice at the same course, setup differently each time. Therefore, I don't know what a real autoX is supposed to look like. I was talking to a guy at the last event I was at and said he usually runs his car on a much larger course (airport) and usually maxs out 3rd gear in his 240sx. He was a 2011 national champ, with a nicely setup car.

I'm not exactly sure how fast I want to go, just faster than I'm going now lol. I don't know what the classes are and what they include or restrict. I want to set the car up,correctly enough to where I can learn better on it. I know my shocks are toasted, tires are bald, under-tired according to many of the guys here, which makes a lot of sense. I'm not looking to step into a completely built road race car. I would be interested in road racing it next season as well. I'm interested in taking driving lessons with an instructor on a course.

I can drive my car in a straight line quite well, but twists and turns are a whole new ball game. As for being in second gear, it was kinda difficult with my car. I have 4.10s in the rear end and a large cam that doesn't do so well in lower RPMs, so i feel like my car was kinda stuck in the middle. I'd like to hear your opinion on that as well. Any other insight would be great. I respect your professional opinion

Edit: holy crap, watched the videos. Now those courses make that one look like shit. Incredible! Great driving.

 

[Sky Render]

Does insulting someone who's only been autocrossing for just over one year make you feel better about yourself? How long have you been doing this again?

 

[GOTTORQ]

Referring to my post? Can we please keep this thread informational? I don't think he meant anything bad by it, or to insult you. Carry on

 

[Sky Render]

Referring to my post? Can we please keep this thread informational? I don't think he meant anything bad by it, or to insult you. Carry on

No, Sam's post. Honestly, I'm quite proud of the fact that I was only 10 seconds behind his Corvette on slicks, considering the fact that I was on 300 treadwear tires and have a decade less experience than him. Obviously I don't know what I'm doing since I don't use the same parts he does, though.

Sent from my toilet using Tapatalk

 

[SoundGuyDave]

Wow. Just wow. Everybody's got their panties in a bunch tonight, eh?

Okay, here's my two cents on the whole deal. First, driver trumps all. Work on improving the driver, THEN work on the car. Seriously.

Next, if you're racing in a class, it HAS TO BE ASSUMED that you are going to "mod up" to the limits of the class, or you're just fucking around. Fucking around is fine, as long as you realize it, just have fun, but don't necessarily suggest that what you're doing is the way for a newbie to do it. No digs intended, just saying. Assuming that you ARE serious about it, and DO mod up to the limit of the class, then mod lists and what brand widget you have on the car means NOTHING, lap times (or wins) are all that matter in the end. If you want to bench race, cool, but that usually winds up being a discussion about a very narrow topic, like spring rates, with the assumption that all parties involved are singing from the same sheet of music. Comparing what I do with spring rates to what somebody in a "stock" class is just comparing apples and oranges. We don't compete in the same style of motorsport, we're on radically different rule sets and goals, and in stock-style springs, you can't even GET the rates that I use...

Sam: You're a wealth of information, but damn, dude, you know how to punch a guy in the face...
Sky: Lighten up. The bottom line in Sam's message isn't "SkyRender sux," he's preaching driver skill first. And yes, I do believe that he can outdrive you; long-term National Champion to a 1-year rookie? No contest, and you SHOULDN'T be offended by that! Hell, he might be able to out-drive me, who knows. Just remember: Anybody faster than you is a cheating bastard, and anybody slower is a hell of a driver! ;-)

Maybe we should set up a "rap battle" between the two of you!

TOTTORQ: Focus on the signal, ignore the noise. Work on your driving chops, and once you hit that "plateau," and can identify what issue is fighting you the most, then fix THAT. Resist the urge to throw a ton of parts at the car right off the bat, get settled into the whole vibe, culture, technique and ruleset, THEN pick and choose what you need to do to be competitive. Or, if you just want to fuck around, that's cool too, but the technique thing is still where to start.

 

[GOTTORQ]

Lol why do you call yourself soundguydave? You seem to know more than just sound. I don't plan on throwing thousands of dollars at the car right now to be next years autocross champion, but being under-tired makes a lot of sense to me, along with my contact patch, not to mention I'm due for new tires anyways. I think over the course of this winter I'll pick up those vorshlag wheels, and some new rubber. And some Konis and call it a day. I believe that's a good basis to learn how to drive from there. Obviously the past two events I was at, I was just fucking around and checking out a whole new type of racing. I got into it much more when I realized how serious many people take it.

Why are you guys from? I'm looking for other events with much larger courses after viewings Sams videos. I'm from CT and as far as I know, the only autocross club close by. But I'm not opposed to traveling. Also giving road courses a shot with instructors.

How often do you see cars break on the track? It seems to be less strain on the car compared to drag racing. Also still looking for an answer on my 4.10s? Do I go with a longer gear?

 

[Whiskey11]

Lol why do you call yourself soundguydave? You seem to know more than just sound. I don't plan on throwing thousands of dollars at the car right now to be next years autocross champion, but being under-tired makes a lot of sense to me, along with my contact patch, not to mention I'm due for new tires anyways. I think over the course of this winter I'll pick up those vorshlag wheels, and some new rubber. And some Konis and call it a day. I believe that's a good basis to learn how to drive from there. Obviously the past two events I was at, I was just fucking around and checking out a whole new type of racing. I got into it much more when I realized how serious many people take it.

Why are you guys from? I'm looking for other events with much larger courses after viewings Sams videos. I'm from CT and as far as I know, the only autocross club close by. But I'm not opposed to traveling. Also giving road courses a shot with instructors.

How often do you see cars break on the track? It seems to be less strain on the car compared to drag racing. Also still looking for an answer on my 4.10s? Do I go with a longer gear?

I'm from Nebraska, a hell of a ways away from CT, but we race almost exclusively on the Nationals concrete which is an absolute blessing and an absolute curse. The surface is extremely hard on tires and if your car has too much understeer/oversteer you will literally eat tires. My stock tires had about 22k miles on them and about half their tread depth and after one season of autocross they were on the wear bars. My star specs have survived reasonably well for autocross use. I have had approximately 65 runs this season between myself and my co-driver and after really looking at the tires, my original estimate of 1/16th of an inch off the wearbars was about an 3/32nd of an inch off. Now that they are flipped on the rims, I'm hoping to make it through next year at least until right before Nationals (probably not going to be attending as a competitor). Anyway, the experience I have gained at the Nats site has really accelerated my skill but I still have a lot to learn too.

How often do I see cars BREAK on track? I think we had two this year, both fully prepped C-Prepared cars (no interior, lots of power pony cars, blah blah). One locked up going into a braking zone and popped the front tires from the flat spot and the other broke the upper control arm on the front suspension. Last year we had 3 that I can remember... Mark Walker, our local ESP hot shoe busted a ball joint at the end of his last run, we had an Evo fry a clutch midway through a run, and we had a CP car overheat on course and spew the water in the radiator everywhere. Autocross is most hard on tires, suspension bushings and the drivers. The worst part of autocross is working the course in the 100º+ heat and 75%+ humidity with no wind. Protect yourself as best you can! Beyond that, just pay attention to suspension components that have a lot of movement in them. Pretty much any of the control arms in the rear (lowers and the upper) as these tend to have a lot of flex. I have 32k on my odometer and the differential side bushing in the UCA is starting to show cracks and will probably need replacing next year. The rest of the bushings still look good so it isn't THAT hard on suspension bushings. Tires though it can be. The harder the tire the more cheese grater like the abrasive surfaces will be so softer tires, oddly enough, tend to last longer to an extent.

As for gearing, what is your rev limiter set at? At the stock 6k RPM rev limiter on the 4.6L 3V, 3.55's are the shortest I would go. Once you start bumping the limiter up you can get away with 3.73's depending on the height of the tires. I think I calculated it out that at 26.3" tire sidewall height, at 6300 RPM with 3.73's the top speed was like 67 mph which is about what the 3.55's are at the stock limiter. I have no idea how far you can rev the stock valvetrain (I would love to know) and not run into issues with reliability but I'm not sure if shorter gearing is the way to go for autocross unless you are running some seriously wide and sticky rubber. These cars can get some serious power delivery issues if not set up right so keep that in mind with gearing. The mph range to shoot for is 65ish-70ish as that almost ensures you wont have to shift beyond second on a National level course.

Others can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[GOTTORQ]

Sweet man, thanks! Awesome response! Glad to know they don't break too often. I'll definitely keep everything you said in mind.

 

[SoundGuyDave]

The "sound guy" thing is what I do for a living...such as it is. I travel to distant, exotic lands, meet interesting new people, and see the insides of hotels, airports, stadiums, arenas, and convention centers... I'm based out of Chicago.

The road course thing is probably harder on cars overall than Autocross, but probably in different ways. It's a little more obvious in an open-track environment, since you'll be running hard for 80-120 MINUTES a day, and it's most hard on brakes. As far as breakdowns go, though, a properly maintained street car will do just fine, at least until you get your chops together and really start pushing the car. Then you can occasionally find a weak link. On the S197, naturally-aspirated, it's really just brakes and tires that you have to keep an eye on. I rarely see cooling issues with these cars (although 100+MPH airflow helps!), and mechanically, they're pretty strong.

As for gearing, if you can give me desired tire size, minimum and maximum RPM (powerband area: above 300lb-ft of torque and redline), I can give you MPH range in each gear. You can do the same with an online calculator, as well. If you know what your cornering speeds are, and what kind of speed you can carry entering the braking zones, you'll have a pretty good idea of what gear makes the most sense. For road-course duty, we see a LOT of corners coming up in the high 90MPH range (at least on the tracks I run), and with 275/35-18 rubber and a 3.73 screw, it's a good match. 3.55 leaves too much on the table, and 4.10 comes up just short too many times...

Autocross seems to have the 1st/2nd gear numbers as a priority, where on a road course, it's 3rd/4th, and to an extent, 5th that matter. If you want to give open-tracking a try, go to NASANE.com, check their schedule for a date that looks interesting, and sign up for HPDE-1. PM me if you have questions on it. DEFINITELY PM me if you do sign up, I'll run you through what you need to know before you go. While the raw price will be considerably higher than autocrossing, it really is a completely different animal. You'll get a LOT more track time, plus an instructor for the weekend, and you don't have to work the course! Here's their 2013 schedule:
April 19 -21 -- NJMP Lightning Course
April 29 - 30 -- Watkins Glen, NY HPDE ONLY
May 17– 19 -- NJMP Thunderbolt course & Lightning course 18 & 19
June 21 -23 -- NJMP Thunderbolt (tentative)
July 12 - 14 -- Pocono Long Courses
Aug. 2 – 4 -- NJMP Lightning Course
Aug. TBA -- Thompson International Speedway, CT
Sept. 5 - 8 -- NASA Natl. Championships – Miller in Utah
Sept. 27 -29 -- Watkins Glen, NY
Oct. 25 - 27 -- NJMP Thunderbolt

You have some GREAT tracks up in your neck of the woods!

Also, I think you have a good plan: replace the failed dampers (CALL SAM!), see what he says about springs while you're in there, get good tires and wheels (square setup!), and then go learn how to drive the thing. Most of all, have fun!

 

[FR500GT]

^Dave, you always post some great stuff

After all said and done and reading YOUR posts, I think you would most benefit with running an upgraded shock/strut (Koni yellows are the obvious) as well as a square wheel setup with a good set of tires. These two things alone should give your car a nice balanced feel without putting you into the wrong class. After you do these two mods, do yourself a favor and get MORE SEAT TIME asap (which is the end all best mod). Once you do this, your car will tell you what you need to upgrade...

 

[DILYSI Dave]

I don't plan on throwing thousands of dollars at the car right now to be next years autocross champion, but being under-tired makes a lot of sense to me, along with my contact patch, not to mention I'm due for new tires anyways. I think over the course of this winter I'll pick up those vorshlag wheels, and some new rubber. And some Konis and call it a day.

Not a bad shopping list, but spell out your goals and the shopping list can be made to make more sense. If the goal is just to have fun, then yeah - do whatever the hell you want. If you like the idea of a points chase, competing in a class that the car is competitive, etc., then that may be a different shopping list. If you want to stay local versus if you want to travel / hit some bigger events.

The Koni's are a good call pretty much regardless of class. Wheels - maybe, maybe not. If you want to run in stock class, or even a street tire stock class, then you need to stay on stock size wheels. If you want the bigger wheels, then at a minimum you are stepping up to ST classes (shocks, springs, bars, wheels, 140 treadwear tires, race seat, full engine bolt-ons, loud exhaust, etc), and if you go with the Vorshlag wheels, which are 18 x 10 IIRC, then you are stepping up to ESP (all of the above plus R-compound tires, and other additional nuances).

So define what you would like to do, and the preferred parts list will come more easily.

Why are you guys from? I'm looking for other events with much larger courses after viewings Sams videos. I'm from CT and as far as I know, the only autocross club close by.

Atlanta. I autocross all over though. The biggest trip of every year is going out to Lincoln, Nebraska for Nationals though. Typical schedule for me is to hit most or all of the Atlanta Region events, the Dixie National Tour, the Blytheville National Tour, and the National Championships. I've also hit Peru Indiana a few times, Nashville, and others I know I'm forgetting.

How often do you see cars break on the track? It seems to be less strain on the car compared to drag racing.

Cars that are closer to stock? Rarely.
Modified cars? A bit more.
Formula cars? All the damn time.

Also still looking for an answer on my 4.10s? Do I go with a longer gear?

For now, I'd leave whatever is in there regardless of what it is. Longer term, whatever will allow you to hit 70 give or take in 2nd gear. This will depend on your final drive, your transmission 2nd gear ratio, your tire diameter, and your rev limiter RPM.